i have a 10 month old EBTxLHASA bitch who i have had since she was 6 weeks old.her name is puepa
she has grown up with another young bitch witch i got when puepa was 9 weeks old.  a 9 month old LABxCOLLIE> (lupin) both bitches are compleatly diffrent, and lupin is the underdog and has never tried to challange it.

i also have an 11 month old castrated boxer witch i have had for 3 months he came from the rspca  (jim)

up intill now all 3 have got on very well together. jim and lupin have become quite close, and have similar temperments. both love to play and retreive, while puepa would just rather laze around, and play with humans rather than other dogs.

puepa went througth a difficult time when she had her first season, where she became aggresive towards strangers, it was never phyisical, but to be honest i never waited around to find out if it would become pysical, and sought veterinary advice on her sudden temperment change. the vet took bloods and ran tests and to cut a long story short, he found a growth on puepas overy witch was benign but was causing a major hormonal imbalance. puepa was spayed and she settled down alot. became more relaxed and was more laidback, and better with meeting strangers.

however over the past few weeks she has become very aggresive towards both jim and lupin. she will sit there guarding the yard and if jim or lupin so much as tried to walk past her she launches at them with her teeth and starts  to snap lupin runs from her but jim tried to stand up to her, by trying to sit on her. i then have to break it up and as soon as puepa sees me she stops and tucks her tail between her legs and growls loudly before retreating to a corner of the yard. she has not caused damage up to now, however it has got to a point,where it seems like anything has started to set her off at them.

as a reasult puepa and jim have become a lot closer and puepa has moved her self out of the group and has started to try and spend more time with us (humans).

a trip back to the vet for another check over and the vet can nto find anythign else wrong with her physically.

i have now resorted to keeping her seperated from lupin and jim. in fact when i removed puepa away from them, you coudl almost here them sigh with realeaf.
i dont feel its a bitch thing becasue she is liek it with jim as well. also lupin has not had her first season yet.

what is the kindest thing to do?

The best thing to do i think is to get a reputable behaviourist in to give advice.

I think Puepa is a very bossy bitch, shes the natural 'dominant' bitch out of your three dogs, being the only one thats matured sexually (despite then being neutered). Shes lording it over the other two and makign their lives a misery.

She needs to know that her behaviour is inappropriate, and really the best ones to teach her that are the other dogs, but they more than likely wont.

Whatever you do, you need to be careful you dont push her into a position where she feels she must bite, backing away and growling when you tell her off suggests that that point is not very far away, she is fearful and she is growling to warn you that she is feelign threatened.

Personally, knowing your situation, i think your BEST course of action would be to rehome both Lupin and Jim, DONT get any more dogs, and stick to making Puepa into a happy ONLY dog. Bully bitches generally in my experience remain so unless they are shown by the other dogs that the behaviour will not be tolerated, yours are highly unlikely to do that and you stepping in is probably going to cause Puepa to bite.

If you rehome Puepa, tahts unfair you are simply passing a problem on to someone else - Jim and Lupin will find homes much easier than Puepa will.

I suggest that if you DONT rehome them, Puepa will carry on until you have an almighty dogfight in your yard, and what if your daughter is in the middle of it..... what if Puepas controlling behaviour over the other dgos extends to Bethany giving the other two attention.... because thats a VERY common reason for a fight to break out im afraid and you havent a hope in hell of persuadeing Bethany to respect that Puepa is the boss and not to give Lupin and Jim attention in front of her.

Sorry if this is harsh, but you have taken on too much, you have higher priorities than your dogs in your daughter, and your home situation is NOT suitable to sort out a potential problem of this sort AT ALL.

Em

I agree with the post above.

The situation you are in now is the reason that many breeders/trainers don't recommend getting two (or more) puppies of the same or close age. Its usually recommended to get another dog after the youngest you currently have has fully matured both physically and mentally at about 18 months - 2 years.

You've got three dogs that are 9, 10 and 11 months old, have I got that right? It means that you have at least another year of them finding out where they belong in the pack, none of them have the maturity to put the others in their place and if they dare do it the others might not accept it.

You've ruled out physical problems with Puepa so now is the time to get a good behaviourist/trainer in to help you find out exactly what is going on and what you can do about it.

I agree with both posts above. 

With the exception of - I disagree with this sentiment:  "She needs to know that her behaviour is inappropriate, and really the best ones to teach her that are the other dogs" - I believe that we don't know enough about dog-dog communication and behaviour to know that this would be a remedy.  From what you have said about Puepa before she is highly likely to rebel and fight back if another older dog tried to tell her off and then you would have a fight on your hands.  She is then even more likely to view other dogs as a threat, having been told off by one and everything could well get worse, not better.

But I completely agree with everything else that has been said.  It is high stupidity itself to have 3 young dogs, under the age of a year, at once, especially after your previous experience with your GSD. 

However, something makes me think you are not going to listen to any of this advice. :rolleyes:

I didnt word that bit very well actually onetwothree.....

I still stand by what i said, dogs will generally sort out what is and isnt appropriate behaviour betweent hemselves, although that behaviour may well NOT be appropriate in the eyes of the owner..... however i missed out pointing out that at the ages these PUPPIES are, they are NOT capable of doing that.

Yes, sometimes that will involve a fight, if its dog to dog or dog to bitch that often will be the end of it, but bitch to bitch it more than likely wont be, and sometimes it just wont be sorted out no matter what teh combination.

The reason i say this is i watch similar but not NEARLY to the same scale as this, happening in my own house..... my puppy of 14 months is a boisterous little *****, bear in mind his breeding is gsd, springer spaniel and border collie..... my other dogs are all adults BUT..... one of them is a very immature 3 year old who just does not have the skills to discipline the puppy. As much as i can say 'NO' when im there and the puppy is being a pain in the proverbial, Dillydog CANT so if im not there, he gets used as a chewy toy and he does NOT like it.

Fortunately for me, and for dilly dog, the other two dogs DO tell Pteppic off when needed, and Pteppic is slowly growing out of his silly puppy behaviour.

Im not saying that one should let dogs fight it out, but i do think that certainly with my dogs, my problem would be solved by Dill being able to tell Pteppic in no uncertain terms to bog off.

Lupin and Jim CANT do that, if they could it may be different, Puepa may back down, OR she may up the ante and fight.... we cant know and it would be unwise with wolfwomans home and life to let that happen.

Em

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one

If I had dogs which didn't get on, or a pushy puppy (as often), I keep them separate, especially when I'm not around to supervise them.  Either crates, or different rooms to be shut in when I go out.  It's very hard work to do this and to meet all the dog's different needs - it often means exercising them separately and a lot of switching of rooms so every dog gets a turn of being in the room I'm in, but I wouldn't do it any other way.

I firmly believe that dogs should not have to "tell another dog off" for pushing things too far.  There is limited room in modern houses for dogs to go away and get peace and quiet from a dog which is pestering them, so we have to manipulate things to compensate for this.

I agree with everything Em has said, please consider rehoming if a good home can be found and please don't get any more dogs! I see from your profile you've rehomed your two previous dogs and it does sound like you've taken on more than you can cope with now, with three young dogs. Sorry not to be of any help really, but I do feel for the dogs and if rehoming is inevitable then better it be done sooner rather than later. I would contact the rspca about the boxer as they may want to take him back.

Many posters predicted and warned you that problems were likely once the dogs started to mature because they are so close in age.

Dogs are an animal for whom hierarchy is important.  Without a good long age gap it means they have to fight it out to decide their status, whereas a bigger age gap would almost settle it for you without anyone needing to seriously test things.

I agree you need to re home the other two, and keep Puepa as an only dog, or not have another dog until she is three or more years old, and as she is a dog dominant character only consider a male, though to be honest she sounds as if she would be happiest as an only dog.

It really is obvious that Puepa has chosen you from every thing you say and the other two have chosen to bond with each other.  You know that you have lots of time for her so yes the best thing is to let the other two go, possibly together to another home.

Hi Wolfwoman.

I have been following your postings and have also seen your website and you strike me as one of those people whose heart rules their head.  I'm sure you are a sincere dog-lover but, as mentioned above, you have already had to re-home two dogs and are now looking at another two re-homings.

It's obvious you love the company of animals and have a strong rescuing instinct but please, think ahead when you see the next pathetic bundle of fur and save yourself, the animals and presumably your daughter further disruption and heartache.

Good luck with your hard decisions and best wishes for the future.

Why not offer yourself as a foster carer for your favourite breed/general rescue centre. 

That way you can keep on caring for animals in need, but on a temporary basis say pups that need the extra TLC to be able to move on to new homes.

I have really enjoyed fostering two of my breed this year, and found as my girls are very accepting that with appropriate handling the fosters fit in very well.

Puepa may not have the kind of temperament even to accept visiting dogs for long, you will have to wait and see as she matures.  Some dogs/breeds are just not very sociable.

well i contacted the rspca this morning and explained the situation. the boxer has been coming off worse, becasue my other bitch backs down and never retailiates, the boxer however does retailate and thats when the nastiness comes in.

the rspca gave me a number for a behaviourist and told me to try and stick it out, as they have a long waiting list for the boxer to go back to them, and they said we dont really want him to go back do we:rolleyes:

i dont have a home off hand for lupin, im sure she woudl nto have any problems fitting in to a new househols,. however fidning one round here where she will be looked after the right way is going to be a challange but not impossible.

the rspca agreed that passing puepa on woudl not be a good idea. however they where adiment that a behaviourist was the way foward here.

so what am i ment to do?

Why would you have to hand the Boxer to the RSPCA and not Boxer rescue or find a good home on your own?

Because it came from the RSPCA, and they are renowned for not being co-operative with breed rescue.

boxer has to go back to the rspca i am not allowed to pass him on in anyway what so ever. that was part of the contract i signed.
rspca has done a home check, met the dogs, seen them all together and are up to this point happy that the boxer is in a good home. and so now they are making light of the situation.

ok just got off the phone to the dog behaviourist, that the rspca put me in contact with. obviosuly i have arranged a visit. however from what she has heard so far, she feels that the problem may be that my other bitch lupin is probably coming into season. this woudl make sense to a point becasue up intill now the dogs have all got on really well.

jim has been taking a lot more intrest to lupin and has been tryign to mount her (he is castrated was done when he was 4/5 months old)

when puepa was in her first season we got jim around that time and puepa was very clingy to jim, but he showed no intrest in her.

puepa coudl settle down once lupoin has finished her first season and then i can get her done liek puepa. hoiwever i have an appointment booked, not much else i can do for now , as the rspca said to see how the appointent went.

for now puepa is being kept seperate from jim and lupin. witch is not to hard, as jim and lupin have the kitchen and the spare room, and puepa is in the living room.

Oh okay I see. I agree with Val, the RSPCA should take their repsonsibility here then as you have no other choice.

By the way, just had a look at your website -noticed Benji you used to have was in fact a Tervueren or possibly Tervueren cross GSD and not a GSD!

Agree entirely definately Terv or at very least Terv cross.  Now a lot of that pups behaviour and sensitivity in stressful situations make sense.

It does indeed.

I have always found people that try to treat a BSD like a GSD end up in deep trouble.

They are mentally so different.

Exactly, even the police and army has had that problem.

i had no idea, as when i got him i was told he was a GSD, and my vet agreed.

he was very sensertive when i got him, but did come on very well. but was never 100% happy in the family home.

Many vets don't know the difference unfortunately :(   I've been to assess several "BSDs" for rescue and so far all have been GSDs - despite the owners being adamant their vets pronounced them Belgians.   Seems that if it's any colour other than black/sable to some vets that means it MUST be a Belgian hence it appears there are vets who have heard the name and recollect a brief description but make an assumption from there based on no practical knowledge whatsoever :rolleyes:

Have just gone to website in search of Benji piccy and yes, while not a pure bred Tervueren, there is almost certainly a close relative there :(   As Barbara says, it goes some way to explaining his behaviour issues - particularly the lack of confidence and, even more so, over protectiveness towards Clare's daughter.  

It's a shame that it wasn't something we knew before as different advice and contacts may well have been provided :(   Let's hope the "experienced GSD home" he is now in is equally aware of his breed make-up and of course the character traits associated with BSDs .......

lovely dog,def a very high percentage of terv!

What do they mean a long waiting list?
Do they mean they have no available kennels for him to go back to them?

To be absolutely honest whilst you have Puepa she's probably going to
have to be an 'only' dog. It's better to concentrate on her and her 'problems'
rather than spread yourself too thinly with trying to train all three youngsters.

If the RSPCA have no room for the Boxer perhaps ask them would they mind if
you ask a local Boxer breed rescue for help in homing the Boxer?

With the Boxer they do go through a 'horrible' teenager phase too, I'm guessing you've not
had that yet?

To be honest most people I've spoken to regardless of breed have said once
two bitches start fighting you normally end up having to rehome one of them.
So in rehoming Lupin now you are avoiding the stressful situation of having to home Lupin
when she's older. Also you are also avoiding Lupins potential problems with other dogs homing her now.
If she's constantly 'attacked' by Puepa she may eventually get to the stage where she turns round
and in no uncertain terms gives Puepa back what she's been getting.

I'm lucky in that I do have 3 bitches living in harmony - BUT they have a good few years
between them, they age 8yo, 5yo and 2 1/2 yo.

With a single dog life is much easier, less stressful (when you have pack conflict etc) and less cost on the finances especially
if you have large vets bills even with being insured.

Yes a behaviourist may help you in solving Puepa's problems, but to be honest I've known one person that
tried a behaviourist to sort her pack conflict problems and it didn't work and she still ended up rehoming two of
her bitches (she had 5 dogs, initially rehomed the wrong bitch who the behaviourist thought was causing the problems
and then ended up finally homing on the one that was causing the problems). This behaviourist was a reputable one too.

so do you think at this point it is best to home lupin and see how puepa gets on with jim under the advise of a behaviourist?

i mentioned jim going to rescue or even another rspca branch, but they said no.

For what it's worth, I think that Lupin needs a new home of her own as soon as possible.  The RSPCA need to accept their error in homing a puppy in a home that already had 2 under 12 months and take Jim back - they'll have no problem homing a pedigree dog, which is why they don't co-operate with breed rescues!  You need to be assertive about this.  That will give you the necessary time, money and energy to sort out Puepa's problems.

Hi Clare,

FWIW I completely agree with theemx's advice about rehoming the two easier dogs and also Val's above about the RSPCA having few problems taking on and rehoming pedigree dogs.

You have to stop letting your heart rule your head with these animals - I know your animal crazy both from your posts and your website but it's time to look at things realistically.   You're not capable of coping with the situation you are in - never were - so for the sake of all concerned, human and animal, let the two other dogs go to a new home or homes and concentrate solely on turning Puepa into a well adjusted, safe to live with, enjoyable family pet :)  

Forget any notions about taking in every waif and stray that crosses your path or falls from the heavens -  we'd all be like that if we went with our hearts but it pays to take a long hard look at personal circumstances and weigh up whether by taking on an under privileged animal we are really doing it any favours :(  Sometimes it's better and kinder to let someone more domestically suited step in!

Please try and see this situation for what it is and that it is best resolved by not forcing your other two dogs to continue as they are and further stressing / irritating Puepa - something which could lead to an exceptionally nasty situation if prolonged :(

best wishes, Teri 

I think you should definitely rehome both Lupin and Jim. 

You said yourself that it is Jim who is trying to retaliate with Puepa and trying to squash her/sit on her when she has a go at him.  This is just going to get worse.

Don't hold out any hope for the behaviourist to help you.  It is a long, long, long rocky road to altering dog-dog behaviour and, to my knowledge, there are only a very small handful of people who are experiencing success in the UK with this (like Angela Stockdale, for eg.) 

The behaviourist is far more likely to suggest management techniques (keeping them apart, distracting, avoiding the situations it happens in and so on).  She's not going to give you a magic solution. 

Seeing as this is not the first time Puepa has been aggressive - it's not as though she has been your model dog and shown no signs of aggression, ever, until now - I wouldn't hold out that it's her season either.  Sure, her season could be making things even worse, but she still has the pre-disposition for this type of behaviour and it will occur again. 

In trying to "save" a puppy from a petshop AND a backyard breeder you ignored all that advice and insisted you could provide for the needs of both dogs.  The puppy is now older, an adolescent, and is not a "cute" puppy anymore.  It will be very hard to find a home for lupin now she is not a cute puppy.  Lupin's best chance would have been to stay at the petshop/breeder's until her FOREVER home could take her. 

If you see a dog in rescue kennels, at a backyard breeder's, in a pet shop, it is far better for the dog to leave it there, than it is to take the dog home and then have to rehome it.

As you are finding, it is far easier to run around accumulating dogs than it is to rehome them when things go wrong.

Clare i do hope you listen to what everyone is saying here, i KNOW you will have heard it all before, thats not because we are mean or anything its because we are sadly RIGHT.

It would be lovely to take on every animal, but life just doesnt work like that. I probably have too many animals according to some people, wtih fourteen rats, four dogs, one cat adn three tanks of fish, BUT, i do NOT have the home problems you have, adn i do NOT have any responsibility for a small disabled child.

The BEST thing you can do is to get Lupin and Jim new homes.... dont ASK teh RSPCA, TELL THEM and tell them if they will NOT take Jim back, that YOU will send him to Boxer Rescue.... if they insist he must go back to them then they must provide somewhere for him to go back TO!

You have higher priorities right now and you do not have the time, the money or the energy, or a suitable environment, to be sorting out Jim with Puepa, as well as the cats, Lupin and your daughter, never mind your OH.....

Never mind wanting to provide a better life for these animals Clare, you can ONLY do that when you sort your OWN life out and start looking after yourself.

Em

Hi wolfwoman,

I agree with every bit of advice that you have been given and wasn't even going to add to this post as I felt all the advice to be sound and the best for yourself and your dogs. Which it may very well still be, everyone here having dogs and experience is advising you to the best of their knowledge.

Then I went and had a look at your dogs............ and what happened, I looked at Puepa and saw a dog not disimilar to my mother's terrier cross, and then it made me think of my mother's situation, she has Cocker bitches and a Cocker stud, and saw this terrier cross advertised and fell for her.

As she grew, she became the bossiest little bitch ever going and dominted all the other dogs (apart from the Alpha female, who she had sense not to mess with) even though she was the smallest (must be a terrier thing) she would quite often have a go and particularly at the stud dog.

My mother was extremely strict with her, and if she became jealous with attention going to the other dogs she would tell her off and not allow her to push in or growl at the others, I have my mother's dogs an awful lot too, and would not allow her to boss my bitch or any of the others either.

Now the terrier is 5 and I have to say she is an absolute delight, you could never meet a sweeter dog there are no more quibbles, the dogs all get along fantastic, with age things calm down.

So perhaps a behaviourist may work out, the one thing I have to stress very importantly if you choose to give the behaviourist a try is you must never allow the chance of a fight, once that happens there is no turning back and you must give up and re-home.

Take the advice of crating Puepa when she becomes overly dominant and left alone with the others, see if things calm after Lupin's season, if you can get through adolescense with no serious interactions you may have a chance of a happy dog family, but go with your instincts, don't gamble on things being ok, the advice from everyone here is very good solid advice, your the only one who knows if things are too serious to be won back around. I only offer the behaviourist alternative due to the happy outcome of my mother's terrier cross, but not all outcomes will be the same.

A little thing would worry me here, as i gather there is a child here too. This 'bossy' bitch, when she gets the status of 'only dog' how will she be towards a child? is she likely to be 'boss' of that too, so it becomes difficult and worrying to have them together? She has growled and backed off the owner, and what would concern me is if she would show the dominant nature towards the child when child wants mums attention. Just a thought. How will she react when meeting other dogs on walks, is she likely to fly at them, is walking going to be a early morning late night affair, complete with mussel? Just a thought.

The answer to your question clamstorm, is a resounding yes dogs as a whole do not see children as a higher status than themselves, Bethany is too young to have any kind of authority, wolfwoman would need to become head bitch and be extremely strict with a dominant, bossy, youngster.

Which is another reason to try again with the other dogs, it is only happening because all the dogs a very young, it will be very hard work, and the honest truth if Puepa was a bigger dog I would not advise hanging things out, a terrier is easy to pick up by the scruff and move to another room by it's owner it she becomes too bossy and bares her teeth at one of the other dogs, but a larger dog would be a problem.

Puepa needs to be put in Beta position by wolfwoman, she must get tough with her.

As she is half Bull Terrier she may not be small?  Depends which parent she takes after.

Have a look at her picture Brainless, she looks more terrier than anything, really cute actually! :-)

Which is another reason to try again with the other dogs, it is only happening because all the dogs a very young,

Maybe with the Boxer but I would NOT bet on it with the 2 bitches -it was always a recipe for disaster with two bitches of the same age and could get much worse.

I agree.  Plus I wouldn't really want to pick up a dog which had just growled at me by the scruff :rolleyes: Dog bites, person lets go - dog's aggression is rewarded because person let go (what dog wanted), end result, dog is more likely to be human-aggressive in future.

I honestly dont think clare has the time and energy required to sort this out so that she could keep all three dogs - it isnt just a case of someone having a small child around, Bethany is also disabled and is at a MUCH higher risk of inadvertantly getting bitten than an able bodied child of her age.

Add to that the very high chance of Puepa fighting back and rebelling against Clare taking a firmer 'boss bitch' stance with her, and its a very dangerous situation which i highly suspect will end in tearsa nd possibly bloodshed.

Em

can i just say at this point that puepa has never growled at me, and i can actually pick her up even when she is in the middle of one of her attacks, and she has never tried to go at me or snap at me.
i think the confusion is where i said she was growling and then retreated off to a corner. in that i ment that after i had shouted at them to stop, and they stoip when i shout at them, puepa looked at jim baring her teeth and growled as she walked off to a corner.
her body lanuguage when i tell her off, is tail between her legs and licking.

she has never growled at me or any member of the family. and the problem of dominance is only with the other dogs, she is very well behaved with the family. if she wasnt i woudl nto have her here, as i woudl nto risk it.

i only have to look at puepa a certain way and she will leave the room.

Just an aside, but would it be possible to let the GSD owners know that they in fact have a dog who has a fair bit of BSD in there? :) and to explain the sensitivity etc...

Lindsay
x

funnily enougth, when they tok benji off me, they took him to there new vets and the vet said that he looked to be a belgian shepard x GSD, and was definatly not a full GSD becasue for one his colour was not typical of  GSD but also he wwas a lot taller than a GSD.

to be honest i had no idea. they are never the less getting on with him brilliently , and becasue they have always taken in rescue GSD's in the past they have the knowledge to deal with sensertive dogs.

Just a thought here.  If the RSPCA refuse to take your Boxer boy back contact the breed rescue anyway for advice.  If they have a suitable home waiting for him, advise the RSPCA what you intend to do in writing.  Let them Know that you are acting in the best interests of the dog and as they are unable to help you further, other than the behaviourist, you will be handing him over to the rescue.

I too have two little bitches of not very dissimilar ages to yours, six and ten months, different breeds but similar temperaments.  It would be an uphill struggle for me too if I did not have the mother of one of them who rules the roost in the dog area, more so than the big male who gives in to her every time. 

There is harmony despite the two little ones being regularly put in their places.  At times I step in to demonstrate to all of them that I have the last word, it can be as easy as taking a toy away without fuss that they all wanted.  They all give me that sad look but accept that I know what is best. 

Someone posted a little while ago - the top bitch owns all the toys even the bits of toys and everything everyone else has.  IF the bitch with the toys isn't you the babies have to fight it out amongst themselves to establish who owns everything.