Hello all,

Just wondering if anyone knows any further information about the addition of Menadione (vit K3) in dog food products. I've read a couple of articles that have concerned me.

This is one which you may like to read (I would be interested to hear comments).

http://www.dogfoodproject.com/index.php?page=menadione

(I have written to various food companies for their comments (Burns, James Wellbeloved, Pedigree, Bakers etc. I currently use Burns High Oats for Poppy (yellow labrador). I will report back with any info I receive if it is of interest to you.

Many thanks,

Best wishes,
Val & Poppy xxx

Other vitamins, indeed other chemicals can be dangerous if unsafe amounts are used but it does not follow that they will be, in any way, detrimental when consumed within the safe limits.

Well, that makes damning reading! Seems yet again more rubbish put into our dogs commercial food, and if the article is correct, before any long term testing has been done to see if it is safe anyway. I will be most interested to hear what the dog food companies you are contacting say, if they actually reply....

Not every suppliment has a rda value, and although recomendations can be given, its only when side effects become apparent that thoughts change, as in b6 for PMT, people were having adverse reactions to that at the recommended dose. There is also the prescribed drug interaction with other suppliments that has to be taken into consideration also, really it is best when taking any suppliments to have expert advice first.

I gather from the link this version of vit k has been banned for human use...wouldnt want to give my dog something that was banned for me. How about everyone having a look at their dog bags, see if its listed and report back?

I cannot see any indication this is referring to UK foods the author lives in the US and these are her credentials.
In the UK foods that are banned for humans cannot be used in pet food.

I see from her research that the vit K3 in the form mentioned  is banned in some european countries, wonder which ones they are. I find her research interesting, and the reasons behind it, she seems to be well qualified even if not in this country. It would be interesting to see if this vitK3 is listed on any sacks of food in this country.

She does not given any information as to the level of her qualifications other than the subjects.  Whether it was in UK food or not would not concern me as it's use will have been reviewed according to published data, peer reviewed, not merely posted on the internet.

Hi Val,

thank you for the link  :)  Certainly something which warrants mentioning and consideration.

regards, Teri

For various reasons a precise intake hasn`t been established, but the report below says synthetic versions of Vit K shouldn`t be used. It does seem certain foods in UK are supplemented with vit K.

http://www.food.gov.uk/multimedia/pdfs/evm-01-09p.pdf

Saying it should not be used for nutrional pursposes is not the same as saying it is dangerous.  If it is there for any other purpose such as preservation of other elements, as some vitamins are, and the nutritional requirements are being met otherwise I don't see any problem but then I am not a nutritionist.  I would expect the nutritionists employed by the manufacturers to read the published and reviewed data though and be qualified to interpret it meaningfully. 

No I`m not saying its dangerous Isabel, I`m just putting up what the UK government says about it & that they`re prohibiting it cos of toxicity in its synthetic form ie: menadione :)

If they are prohibiting it then we have no need to worry about it.  That is the good thing about having food regulations the data is reviewed by qualified professionals and we can all  sit back and benefit from their scrutiny :)

I want to make sure its not in the food I feed. I never sit back and let someone else tell me what I'm paying for, or what to feed, nor for that matter take as read what the 'experts' say, because they can't agree with one another on many things, which does not give much confidence to me! Mistakes have been made in the past. It annoys me when dog food people 'improve' on a food that was good already, because so often the 'improved' food causes problems, but you cant understand it because you have always fed that one....its only when you read in a magazine that they have improved it that everything becomes clear!

Anyway, I look forward to the results of the OP. To be honest, i'm begining to lean towards natural feeding, even though my dogs love Arden Grange. I can certainly see the natural feeders points of view more clearly now.

According to UK government menadione was being prohibited for use because of concerns over toxicity, from 31/7/05 unless industry submits a safety dossier, haven`t been able to find safety dossier yet tho so maybe the ban went thru.

Amazing what you can find now thru freedom of information act :D

Don't know about freedom of information if you phone Andy Spencer he will happily tell you if it is permitted or not :)  If it's banned in the UK it is banned for pet foods too as they can only use EC permitted ingredients.

Thanks for the link but I`ll give ringing him a miss, specially in the day at high peak prices for international call use the phone too much already according to OH:rolleyes: :D

I think I must have my thick head on today, but to me if something is unsafe for nutrional purposes, then surely it can't be considered safe to eat at all

it certainly is interesting what you can find out, well done Christine! After all, none of us want to feed our dogs something which could be considered unsafe. Its all well and good saying the scientists have approved a food as being safe, but if an owner personally dosent want to feed those ingrediants nor pay for them, that is their right, and good to know it may well be added to our bags of dog food.

Its one of the reasons I feed my lot raw C/S, have no worries like this :)

Can see that Christine, the more I read on here the more I see it too.

What is raw C/S? please

That's Christine's shorthand Harley, the c/s stands for calmstorm who she was replying to. :)

Yep.........Im raw c/s :D :P :D

ROFL!! with your tenacity it should be Roar CS!!! :D :D ;)

Or given the raw meat to be fed RARE C/S?

Oh - thanks for explaining. I feed raw as well and thought it was a type that I hadn't heard of - something Spanish

Oh sorry Harley! yep as the others said just my attempt at shorthand, anything I can shorten to save me typing I do :D

Cheaky gits :D Me roar ....or rare......... as if :P :D :D

Hello again & thank you all for your comments on this.

I have now heard back from James Wellbeloved who assure me that Menadione is not used in their foods. However Burns tell me it IS used(at very low levels) in theirs!(and my Poppy is on Burns food!). I will copy the reply here as I feel it's important for other interested people to read.....

"Thank you for your enquiry.

Menadione is used at very low levels in our food formulations.It is a source of vitamin K that is widely used in human and animal nutrition.To date there has been one trial that suggests there is a link to tumour growth when used at very high levels.The company that produce the food for us are guided by DEFRA(www.defra.gov.uk), who have not revoked the licence to use it so far.We will carry on monitoring developments within this situation.

I hope this answers your question.Please don't hesitate to contact us again if you have have further queries".

Hmm regarding one trial that suggests there is a link to tumour growth - that's enough for me! I'm not waiting to hear that there is further proof. I will be switching to James Wellbeloved I think. I'm quite sad about this as Poppy has done well on Burns food and I had great faith in it. However James Wellbeloved have been very helpful today and replied to all my questions.

I will report back with any other replies of course. I have also contacted Bakers and Pedigree (not that I've ever used these but I'm interested to hear their response).Nothing back from them as yet. (I will be replying to Burns and telling them I've very disappointed but I appreciate their honesty).

Thank you again for taking the time to reply with your thoughts. I know it's very easy to over-react regarding these things but Poppy is the most precious thing in my life and I just want to be sure I do the best for her.

Best wishes,
Val & Poppy xxx

Hi Val,

Thanks for posting the reply - disappointing TBH that Burns use it when it otherwise rates highly as a quality dry complete (although not for one of my current number).  IMO if something is suspect then I would not feed it to my family, of which my dogs are a major part :)  Still, for those that feed JWB at least that is a reassuring response from them.

regards, Teri

Appreciate the 'leg work' you've done on this Val and for sharing your findings!
I dont presently use kibble feeds (but have done and will do..) so its interesting to keep abreast of thoughts and findings in this area.
Thank you! :)

I think if it is widely used and there has been just one report suggesting a carcenogenic link at very high levels I would not be concerned particularly as it is not being used at very high levels or anything like it bearing in mind too certain vitamins can kill if taken to high levels but we never concern ourselves at there use within those limits.  No doubt the data will remain under review and I am sure like everything else in the industry levels will be set well clear of anything likely to present a problem if not disallowed altogether. 

To my mind its (Vit K) more of an unessecary (applogies can never spell that!) than anything else, as its local to bacteria in the dogs intestine anyway...no need,on the basis of that, to add it as far as I can see?? unless Im missing something? but as some manufacturers dont add it I cant see that its likely to be an important or integral addition?

I don't know anything about it's relationship to bacteria but I do know a lack of it can lead to bleeding so maybe the recipe they are using requires a little more to meet the recommended daily requirement.  Then again for all I know it could be there for a completely different reason such as preserving the integrity of another ingredient who knows but I can't imagine it makes good business sense to pay for and add something that is unnecessary :)  

We are the ones paying for it, are we not :rolleyes: At least Burns replied, wonder if the others will....with possible links to tumour, and maybe other things, I would stay well clear myself, but thats my opinion which I will stick too. Not that I feed Burns, just if I did.....right, email to Arden grange I think! :)

C/S now roaring off (in the gas guzzling 4x4 ;) -well its not that big but it and me can dream ;) )-to get the kids.........:D :D

It would affect their profits if they could sell the same food for the same price without the addition of any unecessary agents.

Its probably Just that its cheaper than alfalfa...which is the switch most likely to be made, and has been made by manufacturers
Or at least thats the conclusion Im drawing to in the absence of any other evidence of K3's benefit as a supplement...
So to my mind its a downgrade of ingredients.
A useful addition for the producers pockets and thats about it...quite redundant otherwise!

It was just a throw away comment, a joke about the economics of it :)
I eat cheaper alternatives to alfalfa every day of my life though ;)

Yes thanks for this P/G, good to know & at least burns replied :)

It states by *The Expert Group on Vitamins & Minerals* set up by the UK government

>>....In animal studies vitamin K3 administration has resulted in anaemia, haemoglobinanaemia, urobilinuria & urobilinogenuria. High doses have also been reported to cause liver damage.

Vitamin K3 has demonstrated some mutagenic activity in the Ames test, possibly as a result of the structure of the side chain....<<

>>>...There are insufficient data from studies in animals or humans to establish A Safe Upper Level for vitamin K. There are clear differences in the toxicity of different forms of vitamin K..................................Use of menadione in food supplements is therefore undesirable.<<<

As it says, they don`t know enough to establish a safe limit & it causes other illnesses besides cancer. Not something that should be in anybodies food I don`t think!!

Thanks for the useful info Christine - as always ;)

Not one I'm prepared to dice with! I think I owe it to my dogs to do my utmost for them at all times - I'm so grateful the OP posted this. At least it will hopefully raise awareness in some who read the information.

regards, Teri

I'm sure like every other additive mentioned on the net there will be people not prepared to take what they see as a chance.  Most people though will continue to take things with a sense of proportion and accept that safe limits are extablished by research and this is our safeguard.

Only skimmed this thread so might be barking up the wrong tree but .....

Vitamin K is given to newborn human babies even after there was a scare about increased risk to leukemia.  This was particularly worrying for me as my firstborn had a double dose of vit K.  There are clear reasons why this is administered though and as usual there are cost/benefits to consider.

This particular scare is about synthetic Vitamin K Cheryl but nevertheless your comments about getting it into proportion are very pertinent, the risk against the benefit.  The risks seems particularly small here the scares all relate to trials of large amounts the results of which could be similiar to any number of things we confidently take in small quantities.

As one who often recalls the 'no smoke without fire' ethos, I prefer to be forewarned about anything that could, even remotely, be problematic in any way.

There is so much to know about so many things, and often, it's only after the event that we find information that we wish we'd read earlier - but of course, if you don't know there's a question mark there in the first place, you wouldn't know to seek the information.
One very sad instance happened to us only 3 months ago, and if I'd known to seek information on the subject, it would have been avoided.

Being able to make a good choice on food (JWB) when trying to select a food for our new puppy in April is just one of the valued pieces of information I've had from this forum, along with training tips etc. Hearing of anything like the Menadione, even if only a slight worry, is very useful.

Lovely post Trisha, and very true. :)

Thanks :)

I've found a lot of very useful information here these past couple of months.
After two weeks of only getting 2 hours sleep, I read the suggestion of sitting or standing in the kitchen in semi darkness with my back to her until she settled down - after less than two weeks I was able to just give her a hug and go - she sleeps until 8am now!
I've also read good information on coaxing her to walk on the lead and actually getting her past the gate, headcollars (thanks Annie), feeding/food, time out, medication and many other things.
It's 15 years since we had a puppy, things get forgotten, things change, and every problem has many facets.
I'm glad you're all there - first hand information is very valuable.

If they cant say what is a safe upper limit how are we to know what limit IS safe. Seems more prudent to avoid, IMO. Thanks for that Christine!

I cant believe i missed this post In the US manufacture's of the Natural type foods are dropping Menadione one after the other,i'm guessing,soon, none of the reputable brands will have men. in them! Health issues and public outcry are only 2 of the main reasons they are dropping it from their foods.

>I have also contacted Bakers and Pedigree<

If these brands took  every undesirable and potentially harmful ingredient out of their food there would be nothing left ;)

Seriously though :) The manu's who use menadione will most likely remove it from their foods because of public pressure,and the people who are worried about it would more likely be the natural feeders and folk who are nutritonally adept.I seriously doubt people who feed bakers et al in the first place would be worried about K3 :(

>will most likely remove it from their foods because of public pressure

I think that is a shame I would far rather things were determined on a sensible scientific basis but as you say market forces.............:rolleyes:

Thanks for the info, Val.  Most interesting and certainly something to look out for.   I think I'll make a few inquiries too.

Hi, seems some peeps have missed or not had time to read the points in this thread so I`d just like to set them out :)

The UK government set up a task force to establish safe levels of vits & mins called the Expert Group on Vitamins & Minerals. After presenting their findings, UK governement decided to prohibit the use of Menadione because of its toxicity, in 2005, unless industry presented a safety report.

Menadione is the synthetic form of Vitamin K, known as Vitamin K3, also known as Sodium Disulphate Complex.

If the government are banning it due to its toxicity thats all there is to it. :)