Dear All,

As of late my bitch seems to dislike having a tie with the male, we missed her last season as all we could achieve were slip matings, and this season she seems to be doing the same, we are using pre-mate tests to determine when she's ovulating etc, we've managed two ties from her but we feel these will be no good as the pre-mate is saying she hasn't yet ovulated. Our vet reccommend we mate her yesterday as he feels she's close to ovulating, but yet again she just will not tie! This is a final litter for her as she's had 2 litters in the past, one litter to the dog we are using, so we know she can mate with this dog.... Im really confused, has anyone ever had this problem in the past??

Thanks in advance.

I am surprised at your vets advice if the facts are as you state and the bitch is only about to or just ovulated.

A bitch ovulates immature eggs which need a further two days to mature and become fertilise, they then remain viable for about another 48 hours.

Based on the above you should be ideally mating your bitch at two to four days after ovulation.

A male dogs sperm will last about four days but can stay viable for up to a week, so pregnancy can still result when mating too early.

S

I am so glad some-one pointed that out, i was just sat reading my book of the bitch and wondering why she should be mated yesterday when saturdays pre-mate said she was in my vets words "getting there".
She's booked for another pre-mate this evening, so i am hoping we can see progress and hopefully (fingers tightly crossed) get a tie between them as their last litter were absolutely beautiful, with one of the 3 pups in a show home they qualified for crufts with ease (brag over lol).
Even still, i don't understand why she's all of a sudden decided she doesn't want to tie with a dog.... i can appreciate at this time she may not yet be ready to accept the dog, but on her last season we mated her 9 times and all we could achieve were slip matings from days 10 right through to day 22, which is why we've chosen the pre-mates this time even though the dog is very close to our home. She's currently on day...... (looking for calendar) 16, and the vet thinks she's about to ovulate.
Ahhhh well, dogs..... who said it was easy :-D

dont forget most of the tie is achieved by the dog- the bitch just holds on a bit extra with her muscles if she wants too. it could just be the dog not tying but if he is ejaculating all should be fine. many dogs never tie (bulldogs) etc. did she not concieve with the previous slip matings?

Are you assisting in the mating? I usually have to guide my dogs in, then when they are actually in I latch onto the back of them and the bitches back legs and hold them there until they tie.

I don't trust pre-mate tests, our girl went to stud on the day the pre-mate said to re-test in 4 days, she had a litter of 8 pups from one mating. 

But of course it could just be longlived sperm?

Hi Sharon, :-)

That is the thing about the premate , without a doubt they are accurate to over 99% BUT you have to do them correctly and follow them through till you get the C3 reading.

IF you went to stud the day the test said retest in 4 days if the bitch took/had puppies by that mating only and you retested her in 4 days then you would have gotten the mate now reading, I am quite confident about this.  Just as Brainless has said the hormone reading and how ovulation works is a bit more tricky that one day mating. To use the premate tests accurately you have to follow them through till the end. Most people seem to get one test, mate the bitch, then think because the bitch caught the test was wrong. It wasn't. the tests measures for the highest reading of hormone which tells you that she has ovulated.

I have used them 5 times now all with 100% accuracy. I don't think people should ( I don't mean you personally :-) )  should discredit them unless they have done them every 2 days till the C3 day.  :-) most don't due to the cost.

Yes they are not accurate unless you start them early enough to get a negative baseline reading, then you should get results showing the hormones rising and finally get them showing that ovulation has occurred.

If you so just one and it shows ovulation has occurred you don't know when, as the hormones remain elevated for some time.

Hi Blue......we were having the tests done every two days from around day 5 of her season,first two results came back as C1, the third test we had done came back as a C2, vet told us to retest in 48 hours, but didn't think she would be ready for another 4-8 DAYS!!  We retested 48 hours later, again it came back C2, no change from the previous result,  although she was showing signs of being ready, we took her to stud that day she had one mating with a 35 minute tie, which resulted in 8 pups.

After spending £25 per test - we had 4 done -  and not going off the results I personally didn't find them reliable.

I'm glad they've worked for you though :)

Hi Sharon ,

The thing with this is and I can see clearly where the trouble seems to be is with the Vet or person reading the results.  The test is probably as good as the person doing them. ( I always ask to see it being the nosey person I am  ;-) )  I have read the instructions from cover to cover at the vets as I had a nurse do them once for me and she was completely confused by it.  

A vet cannot say after a C2 that a dog will be ready in 4-8 days because it is impossible for them to know this regardless of the test. Each dog is individual. Some sudden rise in 24-48 hours hence the realistic reason for retesting in 2 days but on average if you mate them 3-5 days after C2 then they will get caught because of the length sperm can live for and also that it is very likely after a C2 reading they will ovulate in that period.

I personally would never start at days 5 either although some do. I generally do 2 tests 3 max.

I start at day 9 , if I get a C2 and the bitch is happy to be mated I will mate her because most bitches will naturally mate a day or 2 before ovuation , I would retest at day 11 if I got the C3 I would remate her but not retest as I know she has ovulated if I had a C2 again I would them retest in 2 days till I got that C3 so I know that she has ovulated in the period of 24-48 hours and that the mating will likely work.

Going by your example ( Hope you don't mind :-) ) and my understanding of it,  hopefully Brainless will agree as she is experienced with the premating method.. ( I am by no means an expert at this or at this breeding lark ;-)  but I always like to get a full understanding of things)

1st test day 5   C1  (that is normal)
2nd test day 7   C1 (again normal)
3rd test day 9   C2 (a result you would expect due to the hormone rising again normal)
4th test day 11 C2 (as above, and she is showing signs of being ready all as per I would expect using the tests)
You mated her on this day and she had puppies.

This to me is 100% what the test has told you, the only thing you didn't do WHICH would have convinced you the other way of their accuracy is if you had done the test on day 13/14 you would have had C3 reading telling you she had ovulated, because you didn't do the final test to tell you when she had ovulated is why in all honestly what makes the first 4 a waste of time and money. You didn't actually gain the information that the test offers.

I would have not wasted my money on the first 2 tests either and had one done on day 13-14..   Does that all make some sense :-). Generally as a rule 2-3 tests will give you the results you need.

Hi Guys

Well pre-mate came back last night as she's ovualted, vet thinks either sunday or monday. However, now everytime her penitrates her she screams the house down and sits down ????? This is after days and days of endless flirting and two ties lol.... I think someone needs to sit my girl down and read her the pre-mate rules lol. I'm still hopefull as we had a tie on Friday evening (approx 8pm) and we're obviously going to see over the next few days if she will entertain him, but personally from her behaviour and having had pups from her before i think she's gone over. How?? i dont know!

Some-one (sorry forgotten who posted) asked if i was assisting in the matings, yes and no, we let them try to free-mate and if we think this is not working then i try holding the back legs together as suggested, but we still didn't achieve a tie. Never mind, I'm a big believer in what will be, will be.

I'll keep you all posted and the vents etc, and the scan results in 5 weeks :-D

Thanks guys.

Regarding pre-mates, i have used them before and they always worked for me, this time we've moved home and have a new vet who is using a pre-mate i haven't used before, its pink and its supposed to turn white when they are ovulating?? Anyway its called Ovvcheck Premate 10 (think the 10 just stands for the fact we bought a box of 10) and is made by Biovet. Has anyone has experience of this product?

Hi,

I have no idea which premate tests my local vet ordered for me, but it had to be a box of ten!! The test they used involved a blue colour, no mention of C1 etc, and they went by the colour change, ie dark blue = negative, white = ovulation. 

We had mated one of our bitches and she missed so decided to try the premate this time.  We started on day 7 to get a base line reading and this was definately negative and continued every 2 to 3 days, each test returning negative and no where near her ovulating.  In the meantime we visited the stud and she wanted to stand on day 12, the stud wouldn't mate with her but was certainly interested.  We returned on day 14 and had a successful tie, another on day 15 and one last tie on day 16.  On day 16 the test said she was 'just about to ovulate' and the vet advised to visit the stud one last time.  We visited on day 17 and she flatly refused to let the stud look at her!!!

Outcome was, 8 puppies on day 60 from FIRST mating, so either she was actually ready before the test said she was or the pups were really early, but at 1lb weights I don't think so.... I don't think I'll bother to use the tests again at the cost involved as it totalled approximately £150.

We started on day 5 as with her first litter she ovulated on day 9 and as the stud was quite a way away decided to start early.  My vet would take the bloods then ring me at home an hour later with the results, so I couldn't see what was going on.........I'm normally nosey too .......lol.

Still, we haven't used them since and so far (she says touching wood) have never missed going by reaction of the bitch.

If you get a decent vet doing the tests, with reliable results then I can see why they are used..........hence the reason we changed vets...;)