just a thought-do dogs store food as fat if they're underfed? As in the way humans do if they starve themselves. I'm asking because i'm trying to get my two (labs) to slim down a bit. Teka's been slowly losing weight, and is just about there (can start to feel her ribs with a firm stroke now), but the weight refuses to shift off Bu.

neither are fed on the recommended amount (i take that with a pinch of salt), they're probs on a third of what they should be getting, which made me think about the storing food when you don't eat enough thing.

any ideas?

(forgot to say, yes they do get treats, but maybe 3 biscuits a day (although i've recently just been giving them a few pieces of kibble instead)-one after each walk, something when i come in from work-maybe a few bakers nibbles, and a few on an evening when they go to bed too)

Never heard of humans storing fat when starved.
In my experience if you reduce calorie intake or increase exercise or both weight is lost.

I'm not entirely sure that I understand what you mean really, but the bare facts are, and there is no way of dressing it up, if your dogs are not losing weight, they are still being fed far too much.

I don't even read what the manufacturers recomend for feeding amounts. If the dogs look thin, I feed a bit more, and on the rare occasion when one might look a bit on the heavy side, I give them less till they look right. I can usually see a difference in a week or so.

Are your Labradors well exercised? I mean an hour or so free running every day, because a sedentary dog needs very little food really. An active one needs alot more because they are using those calories up.

Send them to me for a month......you won't recognise them when they come home

Dawn R. :)

When they start to lose to much weight they start to lose muscle mass I believe...

I have no idea about amounts to feed since I free feed all of mine and they get plenty of exercise. Non of mine are over weight. I was suppose to feed Tiva less cause she was a lil chubby I just got her moving more and she shed the weight pretty good, she's back to normal :) Junior I think is a lil thin but my vet assures me he's just right.

they get well over half an hour free running-add an hour and you're somewhere near. Like i said, i throw swimming in a good couple of times a week, i go out with other peeps and their dogs to encourage running round etc, i always take a toy to throw around.

i've come to the same conclusion that i must still be feeding them too much, so will cut back more, but i just keep thinking ''bloomin' 'eck, is that it!?''. Theres naff all going down in the bowls, i can assure you-thats why i'm so surprised its taking such a long time. I shouldn't be really-its taken months to get Teka's weight down, and its still coming off bit by bit. Its one of the things about weight gain and loss though isn't it-goes on quickly, comes off slowly!

Have look at the food you're feeding,if it mainly grains and fillers that could be the problem,grains are carbs=weight gain :rolleyes: Does it also contain sugar and other unecessary empty calories? I cant help noticing the word 'bakers' in your post :(

>just a thought-do dogs store food as fat if they're underfed? As in the way humans do if they starve themselves<

I know exactly what you mean :) If someone crash diets and doesnt eat anything ,say,during the day and then eats a meal at night,the body will hold onto the fat because it thinks it's getting starved and doesnt know when the next meal is coming,this way of eating also slows down the metabolism dramatically.I'm so hopeless at explaining this :rolleyes: You could try divying up your dogs meals into 3-4 smaller meals per day,this way they will be more satisfied and may give their matabolism a kick start.

You can also add in green beens helps feel them up, did that for Taz and that helped loose weight.... Does your food start with meat or grain, if grain try and find a food that starts with meat meal or meat... I truely hate senior or diet food because it does not start with a meat meal or a meat.

Best of luck :)

Healthy weight loss happens slowly - so it sounds as if your current regime is working for Teka.

As Bu is being fed less and getting an hour and a half's free running each day but not losing weight, then perhaps a change of food would help, I don't know about that side of things.  I have rehomed two overweight Labs who got down to the right size just being fed for their correct weight (according to me, not the bag!) on their usual food and with exercise carefully increased so as not to overstress joints - which all happens very slowly.  If the weight had not come off, I would have wondered about health problems but this is rarely the case.

Well done on what you have achieved so far!

If you do a crash diet, with a huge weight loss, you are going to lose muscle mass first as opposed to fat. Maybe thats what the OP meant in the first post. Its well known that when the body goes into 'starvation mode' it hangs on to every little bit of fat it can. To lose weight successfully you need to eat a well balanced diet, control the callories, and exercise. This way you increase your metabalism and burn fat rather than muscle. It will be a slow weight loss, say 1-2lbs a week, and as the muscle mass increases it may alter the amount of loss you see on the scales, but you will become smaller as you tone up. This way it allows your skin to retract as you become smaller, rather than having lots of hanging skin as can be seen on those that, for example, have stomach surgery and lose stones of weight quickly. It also depends on your age and weight as to how the skin tones up. This is the best way to lose weight long term, and keep it off.

As to dogs, I would imagine the same would be said, watch the food intake and slowly increase the exercise. Certainly with horses, bringing in a grass fat horse to start hunting the quantity and type of food would be regulated, and exercise would be started gently depending on the individual horse, but it would not be starved. Getting weight off can be a long process, and you may not see results for a while, I would feel happy that the dog was becoming more agile and active, which has to be better for its health, and wait for the weight to fall. Good luck, and well done so far :D

I only generally eat once a day at tea time and i am overweight. My doctor said that i store food as fat as my body doesnt know when i will eat again, as did my slimming club leader when i brought her a food diary. You should eat little and often and use a callory controlled diet and exersize. When i am dieting i eat loads more than i do normally, I think this is what the OP is referring to.

It is perfectly correct that if you divide your calorie intact between several meals your metabolism with be more efficient including a more controlled release of insulin and if you only eat one meal a day you are more likely to gain weight.  However that would not be my definition of "starving" yourself ;)  If you truly eat less than the recommended daily calories for your BMI, gender etc. you will loose weight.  Of course dogs have a metabolism suitable for only one or two meals a day anyway so this is even less like starving :)
I find high fibre foods very satisfying for dogs that require a reduced calorie intact but are unhappy to take less bulk than they are accustomed to.  Adding vegetable should work but I have had good success with a commercial "lite" diet.

Starving yourself dosent have to be totally withholding food. if only fed once a day, the body will 'think' it is on a fast, and therefore that one meal it will hold onto, and store the fat from it. BMI dosnt really count for much, or so it has been proved, if you take a fit rugby player as an example, they could be classed as 'morbidly obese' if only taking the BMI rating.

If the calories are low enough one meal a day will not make you fat, certainly not in dogs whose metabolism suits one meal a day very well.  Think of the hundreds of thousands of dogs that have one meal a day, are they all fat?
I can think of several rugby players would may have a good physique for the sport but which would definately be regarded as unhealthy in medical terms and which may not be good for them in the long run.

I think, in this posting, the OP stated the human/dog link between feeding and holding weight. certainly, if you (human)only eat one meal a day, you are at risk of not losing weight, as the body will store whatever callories and fat it can and in fact you can gain weight this way if all your calls are taken then. This could eaisly be a meal of 1,000 cals or more. Rather than the body using it as it should, it will hold onto it. thats why, when regular meals are eaten you could add another 500 cals to that, and still lose weight. the body comes out of starvation mode, and starts to use the food more efficiantly.

I saw a program on TV (bah hoo :D) that was about this very subject regarding the BMI, with the necessary medical experts there, and they took a team of very fit (in all ways :P ) rugby players, and weighed and measured them, heart/BP checks etc. They were found to be fit and healthy, but their BMI showed that many were considered obese, and one morbidly obese! I gather that BMI is being discredited now as an acurate measure of obesity. A magazine took a passing example of women, from a skinny but unactive woman, along the scale to a larger sized but very active lady. All health tests were done, for heart/BP/fitness levels etc, and the best scoring one was....the larger lady! The lowest scoring one was the skinny one, yet she had the lowest BMI.

Dogs....depends on what they do as to how many meals a day they have, and their breed. But yes, they are a different animal, and many have one meal a day and look very well on it. Didnt think I said otherwise? :)

Canines are designed to eat when food is available so in the wiled that may be several snack size meals a day or gorging on a huge kill and not eating for several days, so I don't think you can make meaningful comparisons between human and canine metabolism.  For example the way they and we handle fats is different too.

What you say is perfectly true Brainless. And you cant compare humans to dogs to horses to rabbits...etc...trouble is, we have domesticated dogs, and changed their eating habits to suit ourselves, both in what they are fed and the times they are fed. which is why I suppose we see fat and thin dogs, which you perhaps wouldnt in the wild.

>both in what they are fed and the times they are fed

or more likely, how much they are fed :rolleyes:
Athought I do think the increase in working homes and more sedentary humans inclined to use the car for everything reducing exercise levels is a big factor in many cases.

Whether eating one meal a day means you will store fat or rather than you will be less inclined to burn the fat you have is neither here nor there for if the calories are low enough even on one meal a day you will loose weight.  There were no fat people in the concentration camps.
Your thoughts on whether high BMIs can be healthy are very interesting :) but are best put to your doctor if he ever suggest you need a lower one for elective surgery and don't forget his chart will show low BMI as unhealthy too, however you have gone off on a tangent from my reference to them above which was simply to note that it is one of the factors that determine how weight is lost.  For instance a woman with a high BMI may well find she can loose weight steadily on 3000 calories a day but once her BMI has fallen to more normal levels she will not be able to continue loosing weight unless she drops her calorific intake to something lower.  I don't imagine it is any different fior dogs.

I'll take the advice given to me by a dietition I was refered to a few years ago by my doctor isobel, in reference to one meal a day, holding fat, a sensible eating plan and weight loss. Funnily enough, the slimming groups seem to be of the same mind too....:)

I quite agree eating single meals makes loosing weight more difficult and I am always careful to spread my calories equally between my three meals but if you drop the calories enough even one meal would mean loosing weight.  However the OP asked whether starving would make you store fat, this is not my idea of starving when you are taking less calories than the body needs in which case you will definately not store fat.

When the body goes into 'starvation mode' it is programed to store every bit of fat it has, the metabalism goes down, and food eaten is stored as fat and held onto. This does not have to be total starvation, one meal a day will make the body react this way, and it is quite possible for it to receive 500 cals a day and not lose weight.

if you are literally starving yourself, as in taking no food at all, then the body still holds the fat and loses muscle first. yes you get smaller, along with all the other awful things that happen, but the body will hold the fat as long as it can as a reserve.

We are talking about dogs for which one meal a day is quite normal and is not "starvation mode".
As for humans.....well as I say there were no fat people in the concentration camps so when people tell me then are on a few hundred calories a day and can't loose weight I'm afraid I will always be sceptical :)

It started with the reference to both. You may be sceptical Isobel, which is understandable when you are not a dietition, or involved in the various excellent slimming groups such as Slimming World and Weight watchers. To many that have not got experience in this field, they simply see a fat person and think they eat to much, if they didnt they would lose weight. If only it were that simple for all.

The concentration camps people were starved, and by the time they were found in awful condition. This is a different matter, but when you go into starvation mode you hold onto fat and that is the last thing you lose. They were starved, what I am saying is that eating one meal a day will put the body into thinking it is going into starvation and therefore will hold all the food taken, however low the cals, and store it as fat. metabalism slows and you hold weight.

It is not advisable to feed all breeds one meal a day, some need to be fed twice a day, and grains/cereals are not recommended to form a big part of that diet due to the slow digestion process of these.

I wasn't aware you were a dietician either :)
I'm afraid I am not a member of weightwatchers ;) but I have studied A&P in humans and there is no doubt cutting calories would help every overweight person loose weight even if eating several meals makes it even more efficient.  Starving, ie eating very little or no calories may do horrible things to the body but I doubt very much we are talking about that scenario with the OP's dog :) Reasonable reduction will burn the fat not muscle which will only suffer if the dog's weight drops very low.
(I keep trying to get this back to dogs, Jane ;))
My dogs "lite" diet is grain based and worked very well, should we tell the dieticians at Purina that they shouldn't be using them? :D

Dietitons advice Isobel! You are not one either I gather :D

Ok dogs. regarding grain and cereal foods, there are certain breeds of dogs that cannot tolerate them or digest them correctly, sometimes with dire consequencies, if fed on a diet totally based on them. I'm not a doggy dietition either, but I'm sure if Purina, or whatever dog food company researched and took advice from an independant canine nutritionlist and vets, all suitably qualified people, then maybe they would agree also. Depends on the experts, who are well known for being at odds with each other! You are not an animal nutritionalist, so you can't say that the food is good for every dog, or indeed any dog other than your own, so to advise it as being good for all dogs would be wrong, regardless of what any dog food company would say. each would obviously say its own product was best :)

I'm not giving advise other than if my experience is anything to go by "lite" diets are worth a try.  I have not said they will be good for every dog infact I often say all diets will not suit every dog but I am pointing out that my dogs do well with grain as do many others so clearly the view that has been expressed they can't is erronous.
I may be some breeds would genetically have an intolerance for them but I believe the OPs dog is a Labrador and I certainly know Labs that do well on grains.
I believe Purina, like all the major manufacturers, employ qualified nutritionists I would expect they would run them past a vet if not.
I was not aware anyone was discussing diets totally based on them although I suppose some of the vegetarian diets offered might be I have not tried them myself but as they appear to have a market they must be suiting some.
Would not dream of saying any food was "best" I don't believe there is such a thing :)

I have Labradors & a mongrel & none of them done well on grain based foods, Hills, Eukanuba, Purina, Pedigree tried them all.

Must say they all do well on a raw diet even my little mongrel, well shes not so little really stands the same height as the labs but frame of a dobe or greyhound maybe :D

sorry forgot to say :rolleyes: my eldest Lab always had a prob with weight but not since I changed to raw :)

Food based on grains being the most in the make up of the food. By supporting the Purina nutritionalists, who actually work for that company so will boost the food in the same way as a rival company would, you are certainly suggesting that this food has been tried and tested as good for all dogs that require it. You actually tell one poster that she need not be concerned about dog food, because despite being carnivores its ok to feed a large diet of grains and cereals wheat etc because a food company has said so.......it may be ok for your dogs, but it may not suit all and neither may it suit all owners who know what thieir dogs do best on. Regardless of what the pet food manufactourers say.

>By supporting the Purina nutritionalists, who actually work for that company so will boost the food in the same way as a rival company would, you are certainly suggesting that this food has been tried and tested as good for all dogs

Nonsense, I am saying nothing of the sort. 

Ok, well thats what it sounds like.

I've never said anything that even sound like it :)

>should we tell the dieticians at Purina that they shouldn't be using them?<

I think you're looking in the wrong direction isabel ;) Not the dieticians...the accountants!The dieticians employed  by these types of companies are there to ensure dogs dont drop dead of malnutrition after their massive 6mth feeding trial :rolleyes:  and to make sure their foods are as adequite as they can be from using the poorest/cheapest ingredients they can get away with.All their foods need to do is keep a dog alive,they need to add the minimum vitamins and minerals permited by law back into the food that the original ingredients lack.

Grains,such as corn and particularly corn gluten meal when present in the top 3 ingredients are only there to up the protein content as corn is high in protein,pretty much indigestable protein,but it's there none the less :rolleyes: It is not added because it is a healthy ingredient,or dogs need it,it is there because it is a much cheaper way to ensure their food meets the minimum protein requirements without going to the expense of actually adding....shock!horror! Meat

I dont have a huge issue with Corn,NOT corn gluten meal, when used as an ingredient farther down the list and not as a source of protein,it does contain EFA's which are good for the coat.One of the foods i feed contains corn,i would rather it didnt,but my dogs arent allergic to it and this product is not their MAIN source of food,so i put up with it because the rest of the ingredients  are good.If it was Corn gluten meal then i wouldnt feed it,CGM is what is left after all the decent stuff has been taken out,it is there for nothing more than the protein mentioned above and as a binder for the food,it is a very gluey,gluggy substance which has been linked to many a gastric problems.

When you feed a food that has grains as it's first ingredient,or a product that ingredient splits(different ingredients of corn,corn gluten meal,rice,cereals which when weighed together end up being the bulk of the food)) then that is what you are mainly feeding your dog,does this not sound wrong??

Dogs IMHO are opportunistic carnivours which means they need a meat based diet to thrive to their full potential.I've seen far too much evidence in support of this to think otherwise :)

>All their foods need to do is keep a dog alive

Jolly good aim if you ask me and as long as it is into their teens and studies are demonstrating their life expectancy is as good as it has ever been, and this with the majority of dogs being fed these food, that will do for me  :)

Its not just feeding that is keeping the dogs alive, its better medical care for them, excellent vets and specialists that have advanced knowledge and can treat more things, giving animals a better quality of life and enabling some that would have otherwise been PTS to live. Also pet insurance that enables people to afford these treatments. However, the dogs in our family when I was growing up all reached a good old age. Some gracefully, some very disgracefully! :P but reach it they did....fed on meat and bicckies, lambs heads and bones occasionally, and scraps from the table.

You are quite right there are other factors but what we can say is the majority foods have not hindered that in any way.   We all know individuals that did well on all sorts of diets but the studies will take a more scientific view of the general population.

Excellent, informative and patient post Ktee. :)

aww-thanks lillith :D I should take a leaf out of my own book, and reduce my food intake, and do more exercise myself!

i must admit, i never thought out giving 3 or so feeds a day, but smaller amounts. Makes sense.

as for the 'bakers' word-few and far between! Just the odd 'nibble' here and there. Saying that, i know a few people who feed their dogs it as their main food, and their dogs are fine on it. The old whats suits one and not another.....

thanks for all your advice peeps :)

Nicola what food are you currently feeding?

Are they on a light food?

and change the treats to light. :)

up the amount of exercise they are getting.

ktee-JWB.

i'll have to up the ante on their walks me thinks. Won't do me and harm either!

I'm not sure if it's the same for dogs as humans, but have you considered an under active thyroid?  Maybe get it checked out!

If it's similar to humans then even small amounts of the wrong type of food (carbs) will immediately turn into fat! 

It is only Mr Atkins that thinks, or rather thought, that carbs made you put on weight :)  I eat plenty of carbohydrates in my balanced diet, at least 4 slices of bread a day for a start, plus pasta and rice and am not overweight.

BUT if you're already trying to lose weight you dont want to eat a bowl of pasta with 4 or 5 slices of bread
My OH is heavily into health and fitness,he's lost a lot of weight over the past year and he dramatically reduced his carb intake, and it worked! Carbs=weight gain,unless you've got one of those fast metabolisms i hear about,like the one i used to have

If you look at those Lite diets they are mostly grains(carbs) and are even more far removed from what a dog needs than some of the other commercial foods available .IMO those diets are more designed so the dog doesnt put on more weight rather than to help weight LOSS.Sometimes they do work,but i think this is because the owners are putting in more effort in other area's,such as more exercise and less food and treats,rather than the lite diet itself.But more often than not they do not work,most times dogs actually put on weight on these diets :rolleyes: This could however be because the owners feed them more for a number of reasons......

Only a loony would eat 4 or 5 slices of bread, with or without a bowl of pasta as well! ;)

Carbs = slow-release energy. Fat = fast-release energy, leaving you wanting more, sooner.

That's it JF I have my two slices of brown at brekkers with peanut butter and banana, yummy, and another two for a sandwich at lunch and I never eat snacks, crisps, chocolate (well a square or two is quite enough ;))

Yes, my weight had crept up over the past 5 years ago so I had another look at my diet which had been drifting towards more meat and veg but less carbs so started taking on more bread, wholemeal of course and pasta and lost about a stone and half over about a year taking me back to a BMI of 22, thoroughly recommend it :)
I also found switching to a "lite" diet shifted the weight my dog gained when our exercise levels dropped during the foot and mouth period so I can assure you they do work and they keep a trencher pup happy :)  I've never found anyone who as actually tried them say anything different.
You can leave loose weight on an Atkins type diet but health professionals do not recommend them over a balance diet and the long term prospects in terms of cholesterol intake, lack of fibre, etc aren't very inspiring.

Didn't the guy who invented the Atkins diet die recently prematurely?

Yes, a couple of years ago.  I really don't think this is a healthy long term diet :(

Erm,are we talking about dogs or people here ?? Dogs do NOT have a need for carbs and dont have the necessary  make up to utilise and digest them properly,people,i believe,do.

Dogs could live just fine on nothing but whole animal carcaases,or to break it down,muscle meat,organs,rmb's and tripe,carbs are not a part of their 'natural' diet. We as their humans choose to add fruit and veg etc,and the pet food makers choose to add grains(carbs) to their feeds for reasons other than health :rolleyes:

Ofcourse some dogs do well with some carbs in their diets,such as BC's and oats,or convalesing dogs and overcooked mush rice,which by the way sweet potatoe works much better for ;)
Comparing humans and dogs works for some things,but when it comes to theirs and ours needs for grains and/or carbohydrates there is no comparison. :)

I think we were talking about both Ktee :) as usual we have gone of on a tangent.
Much as it is right not to compare the dietary needs and metabolisms of dogs to humans I doubt you can compare them to the "natural" diet of their relatives after several millenium of adapting to the diets they have gained from living with humans.
As I say my dogs have certainly benefited from grain in their diet and as so many diets now incorporate them and have done for many years in a population of dogs that are as long lived as ever it would appear that your fears are unfounded.