Hi everyone...

I had a bit of a funny episode on Friday that I need to ask some advice.

I've previously posted that I have the friendliest 8 month old GR in the world and she loves absolutley everyone but on Friday she growled at a young person. As a bit of background... we'd just walked up from the vets (just a reg check up after a spot of conjuntivitus - vet said she was in great shape) and I decided to cut across the park...it was fairly warm and we'd just walked up hill for about 15 minutes. Anyway there were 4 kids - one older and three aged between 6-11 all really nice polite - who all 'ahhed' over her and asked if they could stroke her. I said yes, but one at a time and approach her slowly with thier hand lowered so as not to try and pat her on the head, but to let her smell them. Kids being kids approached reasonably gently and slowly but all at once. She seemed ok with it, but when the older girl approached her Roxy growled (quite low and quiet) and seemed to try and hide behind me. I was really puzzelled as she's never growled at anyone before (least of all kids as she loves the next door neighbours kids). Anyway when the another child tried to approach (exactly as I'd asked) she then growled at the her and then at all of the others but much more vocal a bit louder. She didn't seem to try and charge them, more hide behind me. The girl she first growled was perfectly OK and said she had dogs at home.

Anyway, I mentioned this to my next door neighbour as her kids usually play in the back garden, and there's been a few occassions where I've been in the house and Roxy's been in the garden with the kids there - they're all great kids and I've told them how to behave around ROxy and they don't toment her (as far as I'm reasonably aware)  so she's told them again.

Now is this something to be worried about - was it just these kids in question or could she be like this with all kids?? She really is the friendliest happiest girl with strangers - she runs right up to them to introduce herself and sits next to them waiting to be stroked ('smiling' all the time) I simply can't understand why she'd growl.

I know it's difficult to give advice over the net about these things, but anyone else experienced this?

Thanks

Karen

Has she had a season yet ? Could be she's coming into season & like puberty in humans the hormonescan be all over the place & the mood swings/feeling touchy/apprehension can all be part of this

Just out of interest but i may be wrong. You say usually she runs up to introduce her self so i am guessing she is not on the lead. So all i was wondering if this was the first time she had met children ( a fairly big group for her at that) on a lead. If she had been slightly worried about the group she could be worried that she couldn't get a way. This and a possible season as MM said could be part of the cause

I am only guessing tho

I would have thought the same Anna, perhaps she just felt a bit overcrowded and not able to escape.

Anna - that makes a little sence! She's met max 3 children at a time, but seen loads and loads when they're playing football in the park though - but from, say, about 50 yards away. I'll have to do a bit more socialising I think...

And Moonmaiden - I think you might have hit the nail on the head about her first season!! She's been a right naughty-bum the last 4 days -chewed anything she can get of mine (which is unusual for her) as well as being a bit clingy. She was sick last night shortly before she ate most of her tea (left the rest) and was sick again this morning. So she's abit off her food - she's liking her treats alright though! She's drinking fine, going the loo fine and she's bright eyed - pretty much her normal self.

This is my first girl....is there anything I can do to help her get through this tumultuous time? (apart from aviod the park like the plague!!) Is this the beginning stages, and when will she come fully into season? (A click onto amazon for book of the bitch me thinks - I feel woefully underprepared :(

Hi - I would go in search of some children.  If your neighbour has some, borrow hers!  But you need treats - get the kids to give her treats.   At first they should just throw them on the floor at her feet for her to eat.  When they've all done that and she's comfortable with it, get them to feed her treats.  You need to do this more than once, even if it all goes well the first time.  If she growls when they're too far away to throw them at her feet, then you should feed her treats instead.

It could well be that she's coming into season - however, I don't think that's an excuse for undesirable behaviour.  Too many times I hear people say "oh, she's hot, it's the weather" or "she's in season" or "she hasn't eaten breakfast yet" or any number of other silly things - a dog should have a good temperament at all times, in all situations - at least, that's the ideal to strive for, so you need to do remedial socialisation.

So this is something that she can get over - given better training? I always worry when something undesirable happens like this thinking that this'll be permenant trait of her personality forever - esecially when I've tried so hard to make sure she's experienced all sorts of people/kids :(

I'll get right on the kids/treat thing...

I had the same problem with my pup,unlike his mum who adores kids, in fact the more the better as far is she is concerned. He was ok with 1 or 2 kids but anymore that that he would hide behind me and grumble through fear. I did the treat thing with him and it did wonders for him. Loves kids now thankfully.
I hope it works for yours too.
Jenny

i am sure she will get over it and you have done very well so far.

Just remember that you want to start of with something she is comfortable with. ie her off lead and one or two kids then start upping the number of kids in front of her.
Then you will want to put her on the lead so she is used to being confined but go back a step as it will change how she feels. So go back to only one kid throwing treats near her etc...  just remember to go slowely and watch how she is feeling. If she gets anxious go back a couple of steps of traiining.

good luck

It all depends on what you do now.  If you wait a long time before doing anything about it, and if you let there be future times when this happens when you're not prepared for it, then it could become a part of her behaviour and much harder to prevent.  But if you act now, as it sounds like you will, then you stand every chance of altering the way she views children so that it is much more positive.

however, I don't think that's an excuse for undesirable behaviour.  Too many times I hear people say "oh, she's hot, it's the weather" or "she's in season" or "she hasn't eaten breakfast yet" or any number of other silly things

Sorry 123 but the hormones changes in a bitch coming into season(especially for the first time)do affect their behaviour in some bitches-it's not a silly excuse it is a fact. I used to show a Rottweiler bitch for a friend who had a perfect temperament, but when she was due in season she became very reserved & frightened of known things-once she had been spayed she returned to her normal temperament & character & remained so all her life. My Champion Beardie bitch was dreadfully shy in the run up to her season & again once spayed this stopped altogether. I don't know how long you have been a qualified behaviourist but hormones do play a major part in animal behaviour

Going flat out now to expose her to children coukd actually result in the opposite to what you want happening. A little & often & with children who ignore the undesirable behaviour & who reward the wanted behaviour would be of help

I'm not saying that hormones don't affect behaviour :rolleyes:

I'm saying that it's not ideal to have a dog which, when frightened, feels the need to be aggressive.  Of course all dogs are frightened or spooked by different things at different times in their lives.  It is how they react to those things which mostly reveals their temperament.  A dog which, when feeling threatened, lunges on the end of the lead, snarling, leaping and barking in an aggressive display is one thing.  A dog which, when feeling threatened, hides behind its owner is another thing.  It's the fight or flight response and it depends on the temperament of the dog as to which it would choose (and obviously there are different degrees, those are just the 2 extremes).  You can't prevent a dog ever being afraid, that's impossible, seasons or no seasons, but you can help the dog respond in a more appropriate way to the fear, or at least not feel the need to show aggression when afraid.  If you can identify the fearful stimulus you can also train a more positive response to it.

I don't think she should go "flat out" - that's not what I advised.  :rolleyes:  Obviously desensitisation has to go at the pace of the dog.  The dog has to be comfortable at all times during it, or it's not desensitisation.  Seeing as the dog is comfortable at all times, I fail to see how it could result in the opposite happening. 

I'd go as far as to say that, just like you should train in the conditions in which you will compete, you should train in the conditions in which you know that your dog has problems if you want to make progress (assuming that she is fine with children at other times, which from what we've been told, she has been).  If that happens to be when she is coming into season, and if you want your dog to be "ok" with children in future when she is coming into season, then there's no better time to practise it than...when she's coming into season. 

However you do want a dog to be able to communicate its negative emotions as well as its positive ones.

I agree with Jeangenie that it's very important for dogs to be able to communicate how they are feeling which is exactly what your dog did.  I don't think the dog growling and then moving behind it's owner in this situation was it being aggressive at all, just it letting it be known that it was uncomfortable with the situation.  I'm sure with a bit of work you'll be able to get her more comfortable with children when she's on the lead.

Karen

Just wanted to check, did you say the next door kids are in the back garden when your girl is out? Does that mean in your garden? Sorry just wanted to be sure. If this is the case, they may overwhelm her even if they are not doing anything "mean" :)

Dogs also need to be actively socialised with different  children, as if an owner socialises say with, just her family dogs and just the family children (as an example) it may be that the dog is afraid of strange dogs and children as it's never seen them before. Does that make sense? :)

Even being friendly with toddlers could mean a dog is scared of teenagers etc - it's hard to socialse ideally but we all have to do the best we can. If socialising really well hasn't happened then i'd go withthe desensitisation, but always always work within the dog's own comfort zone. Never let her be scared, remember, you are in charge and her protector :)

Agree that hormones can cause dogs to act oddly - mine was off in la la land for 3 weeks before hers! I say be aware of this in case, but also prepare her for what life may throw at her as much as you can.

Good luck

Lindsay
x

Is there a chance your neighbours kids have inadvertantley done something, which may have startled her while in the garden? just a thought. As much as children are dog savvy sometimes they do inappropriate things without realising. I have to watch my neighbours kids like a hawk, as much as they love my dog and he loves there playfulness, sometimes they make mistakes.

I have to say my goldie did this as a pup. She was a very happy friendly dog (although slightly shy, but we tried to socialise her well) but the day before her first season she growled at someone for the first time. She has since been spayed but the behaviour has remained and she can't cope with strangers or children up too close. She would have growled at barked at those children had they all approached her like that, because she can't cope with that kind of situation. She wouldn't bite, shes too scared for that. Shes been brought up with tennagers and a young disabled child who can act like a teenager or like a child depending on her mood but ellie is fine with them. She met children when she was a pup.  However because of this i would say its very important to do the correct kind of socialising now, but with sensitive dogs like my goldie and possibly yours, you don't want to force them into feeling the need to growl. Ellies now 3 and we are still struggling, she started this behaviour around a year, when i believe alot of fear behaviours tend to show themselves.

As you say that you were at the vets re. conjunctivitis did the vet put any drops in?  Maybe that she just wasn't seeing things as she normally does due to the drops????

Thanks for everyones replies...

Firstly, the kids next door don't go into our garden, but there's only a picket fence separating the two gardens and roxy can clearly see through it. I very rarely let her go out there without me as she's prone to digging all sorts up and eating it but I can't say been there when the kids are out every single time so I may have missed something. I'll remind them tonight when I go over and try and be super vigilant.

Re. the conjunctivitus, no the vet had just done a check to make sure it had cleared up (£17.60 to tell me that!!:rolleyes:)...

I do think she's acting a little oddly too, she's getting really clingy i.e. keeps cuddling up to us both and sleeping on the sofa with us (usually doesn't settle and goes into her corner when she's really ready to sleep) and seems a little listless at times. I'd be more worried if she wasn't liking sausages and her walks at the moment, but she's fine with those! Drinking fine, eating OK-ish (she's not greatly interested in her food but eats it. She's been sick a few times though). She seems mostly her normal self but as this is my first dog, let alone bitch, so I'm inclined to get her to the vets - I could get her in in the next few hours....

I would be suspicious that shes about to come into season. It may be a good idea to get into the habit of dabbing her back end with a white tissue to check for any blood or discharge.

Sounds like good old PMT to me..........One thing i did wonder, I know it effects Stalions at stud, and may sound odd with dogs, so laugh if you like you all ;)...but as she accepted the other kids but not the teenage girl, could she had been on a peroid and the smell (not that Im saying the girl smelt :D) has made the bitch a bit uneasy? Ok, you can all laugh now, it was just a thought.....:D :D

Well male dogs seem to react to women that are mensturating.

Very true. I don't see why bitches might not be affected too.

Well this one did the latter and tried to hide behind the owner as it was feeling overwhelmed and trapped by being on lead therefore resorting to the growling as didn't have the flight option.

Exactly. Not aggression, just vocalising unhappiness at the situation. Tension from a vet visit (most animals are uneasy there, just as most people are uneasy going to the dentist) plus the likelihood of PMT are both very good reasons (not excuses) for behaviour which is out of the ordinary for that individual.

They are "reasons" if you then go on to work on eradicating the behaviour under those conditions.

They are "excuses" if you decide "oh - it's not a problem after all, because it only occurs under X conditions".

The number of calls I get from people who say things like "Oh, my dog is so aggressive towards white fluffy dogs/toddlers/people with umbrellas/skateboarders".  While referring them to their vet for referral to a behaviourist, I then ask them - out of interest - what is the history of this behaviour?  They tell me that the dog has done it for years, ever since X event.  I then ask them why they didn't seek help or try to address the problem after the very first event, before it had become engrained.  They say "Oh, I thought it was just because the child was wearing baggy shorts/the dog had a buster collar on/the toddler screamed loudly and scared it/the weather was really hot/cold/I'd changed the dog's food the night before/the dog had a bandage on its foot/the dog was coming into season/in season/had just finished a season/was between seasons and might be having a false pregnancy/has been spayed but was at the time when her season might have been/because the other dog was a puppy/was an old dog/was a black/white dog/was an entire dog" and so on ad infinitum.

These are just different conditions under which your dog must learn how to respond more appropriately.  They are not valid reasons  to not take remedial action.

But I can see why that happens though.  Unfortunately, I think the average dog owner isn't going to be prioritising the dog's problems (over work problems, money problems, family problems) in the way that we would.  Reluctant to spend the time and effort required on the dog, the problem rumbles on until some crisis after which they feel the problem cannot be ignored any longer, and then you get the call and see a dog with a well ingrained behaviour problem.  Before that, it just wasn't a priority to them.  They may also be fearful about their lack of dog skills and be intimidated by the very idea of a behaviourist who they suspect will tell them that they've done it all wrong, especially now that dogs are expected to behave perfectly in all circumstances.  Yes, these are all excuses but that's how it goes and it is a frustration which behaviourists can expect to be confronted with on a regular basis.

Fortunately this is not the case with the OP, who is very concerned about this development and doesn't seem to me to be looking for excuses.

Onetwothree, I disagree with you.

I think certain things are genetically pre-programmed. A dogs first line of defense when threatened (freeze/fight/flight/fool around) and the order in which they'll try the others if the first doesn't work. I also think the trigger point is pre programmed, how stressed the dog needs to be to go through those behaviours.

When we modify behaviour, I think we need to work on the perception of threat. For some dogs, a dog running up to them barking agressively will cause enough stress to trigger the defensive behaviour, whether it's freeze or flight or whatever. For other dogs, the mere presence of another dog will result in the same level of stress.

I think you can modify the behaviour of a dog in mild stress, so at the point when the dog feels uncomfortable you can teach a hide or a sit or give them a toy to shake out frustration on, but when the trigger point is reached the dog will revert to it's default coping mechanism. When they have a way to cope with mild stress, they can be desensitised to the 'scary thing', the fact that they have a way of dealing with it will lower their stress levels and make it less likely they will reach their trigger point.

I've seen dogs who have been punished for aggression, and you can see them feeling really uncomfortable and the anxiety growing and growing, when it gets too much they will react the way they did before, though perhaps more strongly because of the stress of not being able to protect themselves earlier.

Perhaps this dog could do with extra socialisation with children of different ages, but the fact is, she behaved in a way I think is acceptable. Dogs shouldn't have to put up with all manner of things because we say so, if they don't want to interact with someone they shouldn't have to, just as we shouldn't. She didn't have a choice in the children approaching, and she had to communicate that she wasn't comfortable. She didn't bite, bark or lunge, she very politely made it clear she wasn't interested. It's highly likely she gave off signals before the growl as well. I think it's important to respond to those signals, the signs that they are approaching the 'trigger' point.

Well, I was wondering what you were disagreeing with until the last paragraph - I totally agree with everything you have said before.

But I disagree that: "she behaved in a way I think is acceptable".

It's, in my view, totally unacceptable for a dog to growl at a child.  Obviously it's preferable for her to growl than to lunge or attack, I don't think anyone is disagreeing with that.  And obviously, if she felt uncomfortable, she should make that clear.  And, like I said above, it's important not to push her too far past the trigger - which is why desensitisation would start with children at a distance she feels safe at.

However it's not acceptable in the first place for her to feel uncomfortable around children or to feel the need to behave like that and is a sign of something going amiss in the socialisation period, or perhaps of a bad experience with children or just no exposure to strange children since that.  None of those are ideal, acceptable or desirable and to compensate remedial socialisation is required now. 

Or do you think we just shouldn't socialise dogs and then accept all aggressive responses as "acceptable"?

Oops, nearly clicked on 'report' instead of reply then

As to whether it was acceptable, aggression is a scale isn't it? It doesn't start with a growl either. I don't think you can say no aggression is acceptable, have you never written a letter of complaint or argued with somebody? It's all aggression.

I think we should be realistic and acknowledge that no dog, or no person, will ever go through life feeling happy and cheerful all of the time (I know this is a goldie, but still....) I don't think it's idealfor the dog to behave in that way, but nor do I think it's a terrible thing. What I think wasn't ideal was the fact the dog felt threatened, but she did. If when she feels threatened she growls and backs away, then I think that IS acceptable. It gives the owner and the person she's uncomfortable with an indication of how she feels which can be reacted to, and then steps can be taken to avoid it in the future. I noticed from the post that this dog usually approaches people happily, well being approached and approaching them is very different, so it could be she's uncomfortable with children approaching rather than children in general.

I'm not saying that the owner should just write it off, even if Roxy doesn't usually growl, she might still feel a bit unsure about being approached. From my own experience of female hormones, I know I feel less tolerant. That means I might react to things that annoy me usually, but not enough to bother with. My husband throwing towels in the bath after using them (why would anyone do that??) does annoy me, but if I'm hormonal I might shout at him (afraid I'm only reward based with dogs, not husbands!!)

What I was disagreeing with, was when you said that the 'option' the dog chooses when it's trigger is reached can be modified. I think if you train an incompatible behaviour for the early stages, it gives you an opportunity to socialise, moving that trigger higher and higher, but when that point is reached, no amount of training can change what the dog will want to do. I think with socialisation, all we can do is determine where the trigger will be, we can't alter the response of a very frightened dog, but we can socialise as much as possible and spot the early warning signs.

Sorry to the OP for changing the subject. What I would do with Roxy, is take this as a warning that more socialisation is needed. Even if it isn't, there is no harm to come from more socialisation, which should be an ongoing process anyway. I would also watch her interactions closely, is she always the instigator? A bouncy, over friendly dog is not always a very confident dog. It can be the 'fool around' option for stress. The 'oh you don't want to hurt me, I'm jsut a silly puppy' routine. Especially from reading your other post about her not being able to calm down with visitors. It's not necessarily the case, I've never met your dog and I know goldies have a tendency to be over friendly generally, but it is a possiblity. If she is always the one to approach, you may need to desensitise her to being approached. Make a list of all her favourite people and put them in order, then start with the favourite person and work your way down the list so she's very familiar with the situation before she gets to people she knows less well.

Also, watch for the signs that she is unhappy before she growls. Is she backing away? freezing? Is she looking away or becoming interested in something else? They're all signs she doesn't want to interact, so don't force her.

I totally agree with you.  I think you misunderstood me - when I said: "These are just different conditions under which your dog must learn how to respond more appropriately", I meant that more socialisation should take place, desensitisation starting at a distance the dog feels safe at, work on another cue like "watch" at progressively closer distances and so on - basically exactly what you have said in your own post.

I didn't mean that you could fundamentally change a particular dog from ever showing either fight or flight, under any circumstances, or that a dog can choose fight OR flight   Because I agree that, (if you were a really sadistic person) you could push any dog into showing either fight or flight, depending on that dog's mental make up.  And that you're unlikely to change that from one to the other.

However, 1. you can change the trigger - the amount of the thing which it is frightened of, which it can tolerate - which is the first stage of:

2. you can counter-condition, to associate the thing it is frightened of with treats/rewards, eventually so that it no longer has ANY fear response at all.  This is what I was referring to when I said "These are just different conditions under which your dog must learn how to respond more appropriately. "...

Edited to say - I just re-read my earlier posts and I think I see the one you're talking about and why you could have interpreted it in this way - just to re-state - I'm not saying you can train a dog to choose either the fight or flight response and by this: "You can't prevent a dog ever being afraid, that's impossible, seasons or no seasons, but you can help the dog respond in a more appropriate way to the fear, or at least not feel the need to show aggression when afraid", I again meant one of the 2 options above.

It's subjective whether or not a growl is in itself 'aggressive' or is merely a warning of the potential for an aggressive act if it's not heeded ...

Do you really mean understandable rather than acceptable :)

In which case onetwothree, I DO agree with you!

And Brainless, that's a better way of putting what I meant, yes.

I should have just kept quiet shouldn't I? :rolleyes:

No, it's good to clarify it in case anyone else misunderstands!

Hi,
With out seeing it its hard to say. But! I bet every one on here has had an occasion when
for no apparent reason, a dog that normally doesn't go to strangers does, and one that is very friendly backs away from them. WHY!! some times just there instinct.
Only be worried if it is all children.
Nasty people unfortunately do not have a red flashing light on there head.

sometimes my dogs do growl at someone,for a reason not apparent to me.but sure theres a reason.
who knows what dogs can sense. i NEVER tell my dogs off for growling at someone. one day i may be grateful that they warn me about someone that is nasty.

who knows this girl could be evil!

if this happened to me,id calmly take the dog by the collar & move out of the way.

oh sorry & too add, flynn growls ALWAYS at people who own ferrets.

it clearly worries him (the smell) & theres no way id tell him off about it,we just dont go & talk to people that have ferrets

Hi

Sounds like good old PMT to me.  I felt like that a bit earlier today!!!!   Seriously though in a case like this if the dog is generally acting out of character I think I would be putting it down to PMT and trying not to worry about it.  If you worry that it is a major problem then unwittingly you make it a problem because you start to tense up when you see people coming.  I bet in the next couple of weeks she starts her season.  Poor soul. 

However, I can also see where 123 is coming from regarding this type of behaviour generally.  However, I have a feeling that it is PMT in this case although I obviously haven't seen the dog or know it.  I'm just going by instinct!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kind regards
Annie

in what way do male dogs react to menstruating women?????