Yes, I too take it to mean that a dog (or person) shouldn't be vaccinated at that time if they're currently fighting off a virus or bacterial infection; in that case it's prudent to wait a few weeks. Long-term chronic conditions are different.

Intervet & the others categorically state only healthy animals be vaccinated.

>>>vets advise that dogs with specified illnesses such as Diabetes and Heart Diseases should have the vaccines anyway.<<<

No certainly not all vets do recommend the above.

>No certainly not all vets do recommend the above.

It doesn't say they all do

A difficult decision but a necessary one sometimes when the disease will pose an even greater threat.

chocymolly - how old was your puppy when s/he had the 1st jab??  The older the puppy, the better the chances of it being ok with just one.  If s/he was young (6-8 wks) then chances are you might need the 2nd one for full immunity.

I would think an enlarged heart is more likely to be congenital than caused by a vaccination but no doubt the investigation will reveal more.

No chance of a PM, the puppy is now buried in the garden obviously, I would have preferred that more was done to find out why.

I think knowing it was an enlarged heart will give them quite a bit to go on.  Research should reveal whether this has ever been linked to vaccination before and the veterinary physiology scientists should be able to say if it is possible for a heart to become enlarged in such a short space of time so by reporting it you may yet get your answer.

So sorry chocymolly, how terribly sad for everyone involved. :(

Personally I would get my vet to request all X-ray's etc from the new owners vets to check what is going on here as this just doesn't work for me with the enlarged heart diagnosis.

I had a buyer who's puppy was vet checked fit and very healthy by the new vets who then later gave the same response to an illness as your buyers vets ie sever heart condition its a wonder she's still alive etc, drained her lungs, X-rayed her, did an endoscopic examination of her lungs the list just went on and on.  I asked her owners what treatments they'd given her in the interim expecting to hear of specialist drugs to help her heart and antibitotics to help with prevention of infection etc, no they'd given her a 7 day course of panacur wormer - they knew all along the dog had lungworms and treated her for such but put the fear of god into her inexperienced owners and charged the insurance a total 0f £2.500 for tests etc those poor people thought they'd brought a very sick pup who had at the very least an enlarged heart or a hole in her heart.

I am so sorry about this puppy and would be nagging big time for evidence of their diagnosis so support their theory as I would expect a pup with such problems from birth to be sick way before it left you.  Your vets can get more information than you as they are 'trade' plus need the information to help treat any problems that occur in  your dogs or do tests appropriate to the problems this pup had.

Good luck

An enlarged heart that caused death within a wk would have shown some sort of symptoms earlier.

Not necessarily, young hearts will do a lot to compensate hence young people bleeding after operations are something that health professionals sometimes miss.
It only needs to be beating regularly and no congestion on the lungs for nothing to be obvious on examination.  Only when it starts to actually fail will anything be noticed.

To be missed by 2 vets, that then went on to say *it was so bad its a wonder how she lived that long*

I think that stretches the imagination a little too far to expect no symptoms at all to show up.

Seems so to me as well Christine as I'm sure they would have listened to the heart as part of the health check, certainly did with my Angus.

I am sure they will have listened to the heart but all they can detect is the pace and strength of the beat not it's size so until the heart starts to fail they will be nothing to detect. 

Until it starts to fail what syptoms would you expect to see?

Hey girls, I think we must avoid turning this very tragic thread in to another heated debate. :)

Chocmolly this must be so so distressing for you, I'm so sorry to hear the terrible news. I hope you soon get to the bottom of it all.

Dawn R.

Dawn, the OP has asked us what we thought.

Any thats associated with an enlarged heart.

Before it starts to fail?

Yes.

As you have said symptoms would be apparent perhaps you could tell us what they are.

I didnt realise you were a Doctor isobel. :) That makes your stance on all things vet wise understandable. you are sticking up for another proffesional. Clarifies the situation, why you feel so much anger towards those that are not qualified giving opinions. :D Should have guessed really with all the MMr posts, the reference to  GPs etc. Why didnt you say? :)

I didn't say because I am not :)

Ok, so hubby is, or someone close.........because the things you are saying are awfully profesional, to be coming from someone unqualified.........dont be shy :D

Last time I talked about my family you went all incredulous over my stating them to be involved in just 2 areas in life! :o  No, Hubby is not a doctor.
I don't know why you are fishing about I have already said I have done higher education human A&P although a lot of years ago now ;) and I've got Google.

Well, for the comments you are making here regarding doctors prescribing etc, and the heart problems, you are not using phrases of a lay person, you are very confident in what you are saying on issues that only a professional should comment on, your words Isobel. Your family has a big diversity isobel, from the humble cash strapped beginings you described once to where you are today, with scientists as family...but then is that it, they are in the medical field? There is some connection there, dont be shy :D

Yes, several members of my family and in laws are medical, one of them is a doctor but not a medical one. As the NHS is the biggest employer in the UK I expect most of us can russle up one or two :)
I don't think I have commented on anything only a professional should.

I'm fishing, as you put it, to see what qualifies you to make some of the medical comments you are making, thats all, when you call us lay people unable to even make a decision as to ask for a referal or not, or question a vaccination. ;)

What medical comments have I made?  I have mentioned some physiology that you can look up on Google or a home medical book.  I always recommend consulting the professionals and as you are involved in so many of those discussions I am sure you are aware of it :)

and I've got Google

...you really should have had the google vaccination, Isabel :)

It's alright I'm asymptomatic ;) :D

>An enlarged heart that caused death within a wk would have shown some sort of symptoms earlier.<

Christine, I'm not sure how you feel able to state this so categorically.  Though I have known a dog with an enlarged heart, I do not know at what point the condition becomes symptomatic - do you have specialist knowledge of this?

The statement "An enlarged heart that caused death within a week" is not necessarily the case - the puppy died within a week of being vaccinated but we don't know whether it died within a week of having an enlarged heart. The suggestions are that it was either a vaccine reaction or a congenital condition - either way, it very sadly caused death shortly after the onset of symptoms - it remains an unknown whether the condition existed for a few days or all the puppy's life.

I am so sorry for your puppy owner and for you, Chocmolly.  Such a sad thing to happen, whatever the cause.  I can understand why you would want to report it but I'm not sure how far you can go with this if there is no possibility of further investigation - without which we will never know for sure.

:-(

>>>do you have specialist knowledge of this?<<<

Lillith, do you or anybody else on here have specialist knowledge to the contrary on this matter or any other subjects? As far as I`m aware we are all lay people on this board.

As others, I`m entitled to give my opinion which is what C/M asked for :)

You said it would show symptoms.  I think it is reasonable to ask what knowledge you have based that on.

And my question is also reasonable.

What qualifies you or anyone else to give answers to the contrary?

No, I don't.  Hence I use "I think" or "it seems" quite a lot and for the times when I should do and don't, then I apologise unreservedly.

However, what you said looked to me like a statement of fact, not an opinion.  :-)

Let's not get this thread locked guys, that won't help OP at all.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion - pointless to get into nitpicking arguments about how that opinion is stated or what people's qualifications to give that opinion are.

Why should it be locked?  It is a discussion which was invited by the title itself.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion but when something is stated as fact it is worth establishing on what basis it has been stated before anyone decides to take it as such and perhaps base decisions on it.

Well lets establish yours Isabel.

Haven't got any veterinary qualifications in the least :)  Think my posts are generally in support of seeking veterinary opinion on these matters ;)

>>>Haven't got any veterinary qualifications in the least<<<

The same as everyone else on board, me included ;) :D unless theres a few vets lurking we don`t know about

>>>Think my posts are generally in support of seeking veterinary opinion on these matters<<<

As are mine in general, but as you`ve mentioned yourself a few times now in this thread, opinions were asked for & thats what has been given :)

A little more than opinion has been given :).  I am still unsure what the symptoms of an enlarged heart are before it starts to fail I can't think of any.  You said they would show and therefore, presumably, that cause can be ruled out.  I think it is important if the OP is to consider whether the heart condition may be congenital and therefore affect their breeding plans on what basis you are suggesting the heart condition can be ruled out.

On the same basis you are ruling it out :)

I haven't ruled it out.

For what it's worth my uncle was a 'fit' swimming instructor and died aged 45 from massive heart attack. He had had pains in his arm prior and had visited his GP.  It was assumed that the pains in his arm were due to a fall from a ladder. It wasn't until the PM that an enlarged heart was diagnosed.  Sometimes problems are not picked up unless there is a reason to suspect one and even then they may not reveal themselves.

I am not a medical person but it seems that although vacs might cause problems in some dogs it shouldn't be ignored that the enlarged heart might have already existed and it was this condition that caused the adverse reaction to the vac.

My best friends husband died just a couple mths ago, just dropped down dead no symptoms or anything :(

PM revealed a normal heart not enlarged or anything so it shows it doesn`t have to be enlarged to stop beating.

>and it was this condition that caused the adverse reaction to the vac.

Or was entirely coincidental.  One thing to ask the vet is whether an undetected enlarged heart would be expected to become symptomatic at this age anyway.

Yes, could be coincidental.  Sadly Chocmolly is unlikely to ever know now.

Found this regarding enlarged hearts in humans.  Do dogs' hearts work that differently to humans'?

"In some cases, an enlarged heart is asymptomatic (has no symptoms). When symptoms do occur, it may be because the heart fails to pump blood effectively and this leads to a syndrome known as congestive heart failure."

This isn`t a vet based forum so no need to get picky, what it looked it & what it is, I`m sure everyone else, but you & Isabel of course, are aware of :)