Just following on from the other post on problematic season, this has got me worried.

My puppy is 10 months old and started her first season on the 25th March.  The swelling has never gone down and she still looks like she is in full season.  Anyway I have noticed she has started bleeding again, well its more like spots of blood, 2 or 3 now and again, as if she was back in season.  Could this be the same or another season?  I am a tad worried now as I have just read the pyometra post. 
She is very happy in herself and no different, still eating lots and drinking just the same. 

I spoke to a breeder who said it can happen (afterall it can happen in humans).  I have phoned the vets and they said at this stage not to worry but bring her in if I am concerned. 

There is no pus or smell etc etc.  It looks just like a season.

Any ideas as I have not experienced this before?

Ta

Sounds like a split season.  Maybe the hormone levels did not reach the required levels and now that she is a bit more mature they are finally kicking in and it will finally happen properly.

Thanks Barbara.....  are there any websites I can read up on it?

Never heard of them before.

Ta
  :-)

Just type in what you want to know in a search engine, google is good, and with a bit of searching round, you can usually find what you want! A book called the book of the bitch is excellent, you can find it on amazon. :)

Hi,
To read up on your Bitch, there is a good book called "Book of the Bitch"
A complete Guide to understanding and Caring for Bitches.
By J. M. Evans & Kay White.
It will tell you all you need to know, the rest will come with experience.
Split seasons included.

Hi Denese,

I have the book of the bitch, had it years but not noticed anything in it about split seasons, I will go and have another look.  Funny; have been breeding years but never come across a split season, I suppose each bitch is different.

Hi Liisa,
I have got a bitch that has  split seasons, yep! they are all different,
I have had a problem mating her. Bit of a pain!
There is what they call a dry season as well egh!!

I think with these kinds of seasons it is best to use prmeate tests to acutally find out if they ovulate at all during that season.

Hi Barbra,
Yes! I think I will, I'm getting very frustrated over it, its been two
seasons now. Tried all the other ways, 

Well thankfully its gonna me a few years before I mate this one (and if i do).  You learn something new everyday.  I asked another breeder who has been in the breed for well over a decade and she hadnt heard of split seasons either. 

Thank god for Champdogs thats what i say!!!!

Cheers chapettes :-)

Hi Liisa,
in book of the bitch it mentions split season,dry season etc in chapter 2 (bitch management) under physical signs. But doesn't explain alot, just says that they can happen

Yo,

Just to update you all on this.

Eventually took her to the vets and guess what?  They said "well we could spay her" LOL, typical vets.  I explained that unless it was necessary (she was in pain, it was life threatening) that wasnt an option at present and I didnt know if I would breed from her until her health tests had been done etc and how she is when she matures.  First of all they said it was a cyst on one of her ovaries.  I mentioned split seasons and prolonged seasons, gave them all of the symptoms, tail lifting, males interested, vulva swelling going down etc etc etc and the silly vet didnt know and said she would get back to me.  Anyway she rang me last night to say she had read up on it and I wasnt to worry as it could be a split season or prolonged..... ffs!!!!!  I paid £20 consultaion for her to go away and read a book and phone me back.

Mind you that will teach me to only see my usual vet and not some other vet who has a free time slot!!!!!

So anyway swelling really going down now and discharge practically gone.  Hopefully her next season will be a normal one.

Cheers folks for your help and advice.

Trouble is most Vets are encouraging their owners to not let their animals reproduce and are far from expert in reproduction.

I wouldn't say that is the "trouble" with vets at all, seems like a very sensible course to pursue :)  I don't quite see what this vet has done wrong, they took the trouble to research further before commiting themselves and the outcome happened to be what the OP was considering herself.  I don't think a cyst on the ovary was off the wall either :)

No the trouble bit is we assume the Vets will know, but they are generally not specialists, and most breeders will have a more in depth knowledge about breeding than the GP vet.

You need a Vet who specialises in fertility to deal with fertility problems, and frankly my own opinion is if bitches/dogs need excessive intervention to reproduce then they really shouldn't.

Of course the health aspects linked to fertility are something the Vet should be cognisant with. :d

I never assume a vet will know there and then :) The subject of veterinary medicine and surgery are obviously too vast.  What I do expect, of any science graduate really, is that they will have a good grounding but much more importantly they have the study skills to research and evaluate information on the subject.
I don't think there is any indication that the vet here does not appreciate the health aspects linked to fertility just because she wished to take time to evaluate the symptoms to the likeliest cause.

Me too, but many people think Vets, Doctors, solicitors are all knowing in their field.  Unfortunately some of these professionals seem to think it necessary to foster that feeling.

In relation to Vets I have found the ones from Australia and New Zealand far more likely to say they are unsure of something and need to check it out, but also some of them seem very knowledgeable about things that are not run of the mill.

I think they are in a difficult position really.  The relationship is also dependent on trust and in this day and age the acknowledgement of the need for further fact finding will be taken by some as an indication of inadequacy.  I think atitudes need to change on both sides.

I don't expect my vet to know about everything there and then, and would prefer them to say honestly that they need to look into something further.  [My GP did this the other day, and I felt that he was being responsible and caring!]

If seasons are proving troublesome, then I would expect the vet to offer spaying as an option but also to understand if I preferred to wait because I wanted to breed from the bitch, provided that she would not be put at increased risk by keeping her entire.

I think that medicine is just one of many subjects where a wide and thorough knowledge can really only be acquired over the years - Liisa's vet will know about split/prolonged seasons for the rest of her career.

I think this is a simple example of why it is good to seek the opinion of a specialist vet for things that require it. The vet in question had not taken the split season into account, or even considered another angle to the problem, until the OP had suggested it. Had the OP not come on here and spoken with people about this problem, she would not have been aware of it either, which is understandable for her but not for the vet. If you can find this in a general health care book, I would have thought the books vets have for study would have been far more indepth regarding fertility/hormones etc, and would surely have mentioned this as part of the long training process. I wouldnt expect any vet who is a general vet to be able to answer every question and know how to deal with every situation, much of this comes with age and experience, or by one that has decided to specialise in that field. Its good to know that vet took the trouble to look it up and report back to the OP. I wonder what, if any, advice was given for the long term prospect of this bitch, with regard to breeding and the problamatic seasons?

If the likeliest cause of the symptoms is a split season that is the cause her researches would have produced whether the OP suggested it or not.  A specialist vet, if indeed a veterinary gynaecologist exists ;), would have provided the same information of course but with an added, higher, consultation fee plus traveling costs.  A vet willing and able to research the answer is just what you want bearing in mind that it is the research findings of the specialists in this area that they will be consulting, of course if you are already convinced of the answer yourself you would not be seeking their opinion anyway.

I gather she wouldnt have researched it if the op hadnt mentioned it, and gone into great detail regarding it. So it would have remained a possible cyst or spay. I would expect a specialist vet, in whatever sphere, to be able to give not just the diagnosis but advice regarding the condition and maintenance of it. Be that Gynie, Orthopaedic, or whatever. If indeed the findings in this vets books are from specialists in this area, then I would think there must be gynie specialists.

The veterinary surgeons with an interest in gynaecology may be research vets only, certainly I have never heard of any consulting ones.  You may gather she only consulted elsewhere because the OP suggested something but personally I cannot see anything to indicate that she would not have anyway :) but it doesn't really matter, she did and the OP received confirmation which is presumably why she went and paid a consultation fee.

I cant see anything to say the vet would have either :) But, there you go, seems the vet agreed that what was told the OP on here, and found in her book, was the problem and thankfully all is well! As the OP said, £20 for telling her what she already knew........:D ;)

I wouldn't agree that the OP paid £20 for being told what she already "knew". 

I think she paid £20 for the dog to be examined, to have more serious conditions ruled out and for a professional to confirm what she "suspected" might be the case.  We often have an idea of what is wrong with our dog when we traipse off to the vet: sometimes we are right and sometimes we are wrong!

Thats very true lol....at least the vet agreed with her, and she didnt go with the more expensive and intrusive spay at this time. :)

Poor vet :)  I rather have the feeling if she had agree, disagreed, paused to ask the most eminent in the land she would have been failing to earn her fee.  I really can't see why a consultation was sought unless the vets opinion was the one that counted.

"I really can't see why a consultation was sought unless the vets opinion was the one that counted".

One doesnt expect to go to the vets and have them not know the answer in the first place.  I certainly didnt expect her to say she had to do more research and would phone me back.  When I phoned to book the appt I gave them the symptoms over the phone. 

I certainly will not ask to see this vet in the future.

:-)

There, we will just have to not share the same opinion ;)  I am quite familiar with the concept that in science subjects all graduates qualify understanding the basics but because the subject may be vast and research is continuous that understanding the need for continous updating is necessary and indeed vital.
You may well have given the symptoms over the phone but a phyical examination was also important to complete the diagnostic picture.
As I say I really don't know why you consulted if you were already sure of the answer and do not believe it was necessary for your vet to confirm it :)

Hiya Isabel,

I think you have mis interpreted my posts.  If you re-read my post you will see that the vet diagnosed my bitch not me, just happens she diagnosed what had been suggested to me previously.  Where did I say I was sure of the diagnosis?  

I am not going to get into a debate with you it is obvious why I consulted the vet - because I am not a vet.  I would never put my bitch at risk and will continue to take her to the vets, I will just make sure I see my usual vet whom i trust totally. 

The point i was trying to make about the phone call was the fact that she could have looked into it prior to me getting there and then offering suggestions, it doesnt instill confidence when a vet says "I dont know I will have to get back to you" and then goes away and reads a book or two and then diagnosis something that was suggested by other people who arent vets (well i dont think they are anyway :-))

Times like this when I hate email and forums because things are so much easier to discuss in person. :-)

:-)

edited to add, I suppose it is better to say you dont know than diagnose the wrong thing.......   but even so.....  there were other parts of the conversation that werent a confidence builder but I wont go into those............. 

Until she had physically examined the dog she would not have had the full picture.  We do not know the constraints on her day either. If she was the duty vet on call she may not have had the time to sit down with reference books, on the web, or contact a colleague.  Having examined the dog to rule out a medical emergency scheduling further research at a more convenient time seems reasonable enough to me, she even phoned you to save another visit.
I am really not sure what you have to complain about if my vet went to this trouble I would be more than content.  I would not care if she found the answer from the recesses of her brain or from other resources so long as it was the most accurate one. 
You say you will see another vet next time but the possibility exists that whatever you are presenting with that time vet A might happen to have have more recent experience of than vet B so infact may be the one vet B will choose to confer with :D
I agree admitting to seeking further research is not a confidence builder :) but I think it is as a result of a more PC approach to health care.  The old school would have done it but not told you but this is what a lot of people have shouted for.  You see GPs doing it a lot more too so I suppose as it becomes more commonplace that unease it gives some laypeople will disappear.