And your breed, Debs?

Pharaoh Hounds.

If you want a comparison between UK and USA types you only have to look at the english springer spaniel.

Debs

If you want a comparison between UK and USA types you only have to look at the english springer spaniel.

Golden Retriever is another. Not to mention the Cockers, they actually BECAME 2 different breeds.

and the Cocker and American cocker that originally were the same breed.

I have a breed that pretty much fits the mould of Mother Nature's ideal dog and yet there are distinctly different types within that range which still conform to the breed standard (to varying degrees depending on personal interpretation).

Personally I don't believe that judges have nearly as much influence as that article gives them credit for - certainly not in the UK.  Whether an experienced stockman of a particular breed or upcoming learner with an excellent mentor, IMO most matings will be decided on the suitability phenotypically and genotypically of dog and bitch rather than on show placings.  In my own breed some of the most highly awarded males for eg have rarely been used at stud and it's not at all unusual for a less well placed dog or even unshown dog to be used for mating by knowledgeable breeders.

regards, Teri

Maybe some of the -problem is the lack of experienced people in breeds, as statistics have shown that the average person stays in the dog game about 5 years. 

With breed experts keeping and breeding fewer dogs, it is important that anyone that breeds a litter does it right, as they will have more of an effect than they would otherwise have had when most breeding was done by experienced breed experts.

Judges have a responsability to avoid exaggeration when judging and in my view should keep the original function of the breed in mind when judging. Having said that they can only judge what is in front of them.
In the US there tend to be breeders and judges as 2 almost seperate entities. Not so over here, one week someone is judging the next they are showing.
Certainly in the US in many breeds they seem to go for he 'generic show dog' as Debs describes, long neck, upright shoulder, sloping topline, huge hind angulation - dreadful! The other side of the US mentioned in this thread of smart clothes, well groomed dog, in some cases even bothering to bath the dog I see no problem with.
Judges dont all act as one, although some do tend to 'follow form' so you cant say judges change breeds, but there is a danger if breeds to get exaggerated - but breed clubs can do something about this by way of education.
Lets bear in mind we have some v good judges and some dreadful ones, great all rounders and awful all rounders, breed specialists who do a great job and breed specialists who havent the first idea of basics - guess its what keeps us all going every week

Talking about breeds that have changed dramatically, I was looking at the Sieger results and photographs.  I have to say that a finer example of roached backs would be hard to find !!  How can the judges reconcile what they are placing in the ring with the KC breed standard?  this seems to go way beyond interpretation.  On some websites there is information suggesting that the particular shape of the German Shepherd facilitates its movement/speed and would be necessary while working, but no other pastoral breed has this shape of back

"Back between withers and croup, straight, strongly developed, not too long....slightly sloping from front to back. Weak, soft and roach backs undesirable and should be rejected."   taken from the KC breed standard

I have a breed that has a roach or arch over the loin (not the whole back) and is supposed to have a very flexible spine (and they are very flexible), but there is no way I can replicate the shape of the German Shepherd back no matter what position I try to stand the dog in !!

My father bred German shepherds in the 50's and none of them looked like that.  When and why the change, was it the Judges or the breeders who changed the breed so much?   

My father bred German shepherds( weren't most called "Alsatians back then ?) in the 50's and none of them looked like that.  When and why the change, was it the Judges or the breeders who changed the breed so much?

Hm Well I had GSDs(well one)in the 1950's from two german imports & unlike the UK "Alsatians"of the time she had a firm topline in movement, decent length of leg & coorect proportions &(a tad important)& excellenr temperament. My father had a bred in the blue(from top "Alsatian Ch breeding Father Ch mother dtr of two ch etc)Alsatian bitch Short legged over long dippy back & the customary windy"Avon Prince"character(PTS young due to being a fear biter)

The dogs at last years Sieger did not have"Roached backs"you are confusing short level back & curve of croup with a "roach"which means the back rises upwards from the withers like a Bedlington Terrier

Did you look at the HGH class dogs(dogs that work sheep for a living)were they also "roached" ? If so how could they work ?

I very much doubt the dogs in the UK in the 1950's(heyday of the shortest of legs & longest of bodied "Alsatians") would have lasted a half hour working sheep apart from the iffy temperaments(Noted suspicion of strangers was added to the standard to make this the correct temperament:rolleyes:)their physical structure would have stopping them being able to gait for any length of time-I know I was there with my funny looking bitch who only won under German judges(BTW my first bitch was a Brittas)

BTW the judges at the Sieger don't have to adhere to the UK breed standard as the Sieger(as opposed to the UK Sieger)is under SV rules-your 1950's dogs would never have passed the test of courage let alone the measuring against the breed size etc as laid down in the standard

I'm a little confused... Are you saying that, independent of what you call it, the current "look" of very-slopey back is correct and should be encouraged (apologies if I have this totally the wrong way round).

Either way, did you see these links I think I posted before?

http://www.interpines.f2s.com/banter/history_gsd.jpg

http://www.aniwa.com/en/chien/Grand_Public/document/101809/103053/auto=0/index.htm

The second one shows 1950s-era GSDs.

Jemima

Dill, it seems that many GSD breeders think that the croup is the spine over the loin (starting where the ribs finish) and not at the pelvis. :( The standard clearly says the back should be straight (not level) from withers to croup (ie, to hips). This must be why the breed's becoming known as 'banana-dogs'. :(

Exactly JG.  I think people need to learn their terminology and not just keep stating that these dogs are correct.  Somewhere in the middle of the extremes would be ideal.

Debs

watch the toplines on these dogs on the move, not on the stack. Run your hands over the topline from the high wither to croup - thats how to assess toplines not in photos.
howeber  I think we are in danger of moving an interesting debate into yet another re GSDs where those of us who think the International type are correct will never agree of Alsations and vice versa - so probably best to quietlt respect the other sides right to be wrong 

so probably best to quietly respect the other sides right to be wrong

I quite agree I prefer working bred GSDs & my next one will be an import from Germany from dogs born & bred to work not for their outward appearances & of course with all the health tests & 150 % temperament He will be from this lady whose first ever dog(a working bred BC)I sent to her

Thank you JG,

I was beginning to think that the croup had moved although the croup is still in the same place on a horse ;)

Moonmaiden,
You refer the to the roach as 'starting from the withers like the Bedlington',  this is incorrect, in a Bedlington the arch (roach) is over the loin - that part of the back from the last rib to the croup, there are some Bedlingtons with a back which rises from the withers but this is a fault and in no way conducive to a strong, flexible spine.

Looking at the photos on both websites above it's clear that the GSD has changed dramatically since the 50's but the reason for this isn't clear at all.

but the reason for this isn't clear at all.

The same reason that we no longer drive Ford Standard 8's I would think

You can of course still find unhealth tested over long over angulated short legged 1950's style GSDs(the breeders prefer the name Alsatian of course)

>The same reason that we no longer drive Ford Standard 8's I would think<

Are you saying you think modern show-type GSDs are superior to the ones in the past?

That you prefer the modern type?

Jemima

Well our(as a family)first GSD(then called an Alsatian)was a nervous wreck with short legs & long back & was PTS as a fear biter. She was a quite successful show dog & of course backing off the judges was the normal in the 1950's.

My(as in owned by me personally)first GSD was bred by Gwen Barrington & totally bomb proof. When I showed her she was often attacked(literally)in the ring by dogs like my family's first one & she looked nothing like the other dogs way back then. She was the daughter of two imports that Gwen bought from Germany & even then was longer legged & shorter bodied with a good firm not dippy back. Her parents were X rayed in Germay for HD a very rare thing in the UK. I never intended breeding from her & she was never X rayed

The "Modern" type are without exception bred from health tested parents with good characters-something that is rarely the case with the 1950's type

She instilled in me a love for extremely good tempered dogs & even now there can be seen poor temperamented dogs winning under judges who prefer the 1950's types

The type you dislike & call modern have evolved over the last 50 years & it is interesting to note that most purpose bred Police dogs are from these "modern lines"(especially the working Germany lines)Few of the gifted dogs pass the hip scoring let alone the character/temperament/attitude test & those that do are much more likely to be from"modern"lines

The majority of the breeders on the 1950's type still do not health test at all despite the sometimes high hip scores in the dogs they produce. They have also lost sight of the inbreeding they do to known epileptics it can be very very frightenening for a buyer of their puppies to see the dogs go into fits & when the pedigrees are checked the lines to the epileptics are obvious

I have noted there is a certain "arrogance"amougst those that prefer the1950's type dog to see them as "English" The GSD is not English it is a German Shepherd Dog not an Old English Sheepdog, English Springer Spaniel etc The correct type is the type that is seen in Germany the Motherland of the breed.

There are on here critics of the ESS as bred in America which is fine as the ESS is an Egnlish Breed. I critise the Show BC with foreign lines that are TBH quite far removed from the dogs that bred to work & yet they spring from the same bloodlines back in the 1920's(ISDS)with the exception of course to some Australian BC's that have at least one Kelpie in their background. However the critics do tend to be people to have the breed unlike the GSD were everyone & his wife are breed experts & of course know that the old dogs were better & straight backed etc etc I have to smile when they quote the first GSD to go BIS at Crufts as having a lovely straight back, Fenton of Kentwood had a very long soft dippy topline that wobbling up & down in movement like a jelly-he did however have a reasonable temperament-quite unusual in the era in which he was shown

BTW I prefer working bred Gernan GSDs & my next one will be bred by my friend who is an SV Schutzhund judge, trainer, handler & tattooist It will not be a show bred dog of either side

Obviously, temperament is paramount, as is health-testing. I'm surprised to hear that those who breed 1950s type don't test - do you have any evidence to back this up?

>The correct type is the type that is seen in Germany the Motherland of the breed. <

So if the Germans all started to breed 1950s-type, you'd go along with that? Here's one working line - would you choose a dog that looks like this? Would you call it a working type or a 1950s type?

http://www.sontausen.allk-9.com/about.htm

Jemima

It seems that GSDs have gone the same way as many other breeds (labradors, springer spaniels etc) and have two distinct types at the extremes. The afficianados of both despise the other while the general public is baffled and would prefer something in the middle.

he afficianados of both despise the other

I don't despise the fans of the 1950's dogs I despair that steadfastly refuse on the whole to do any health tests on the grounds that if a dog doesn't limp etc it can't have HD & so breed from unhealthy dogs(this goes for any breeder who doesn't health test in any breed)

I recently saw a lovely GSD litter with an obvious breed fault(they were all longcoated)but they were from health tested lovely temperamented parents Well reared & with character to die for-would I buy/own one ? No because I prefer GSDs with a correct coat Would I recommend the puppies to someone who wanted a longcoat-yes

My bad wording, Moonmaiden! :o I meant to say that the afficiandos of both despise (or give the clear impression of despising) the other type, not the other people! :)

I don't despise the type just the fact the breeders of the type don't on the whole health or bother about character & then the buyers are left with unhealthy dogs & the iffy ones end up being PTS The waste of any life is a crime & producing physically & mentally unfit/unhealthy dogs because you like the "look" is an even worse one

Yes, the GSD has changed, Dill.  It looks to me that the croup has got flatter and there is more exaggeration in the hind legs which may give a 'roached' appearance in a picture. 

Here is video of SG1 Dux vom Haus Barder.  http://www.estahaus.com/Dux.htm

Dux was imported to the states from Germany after the 2004 sieger show, where he gained quite a bit of attention from some UK GSD breeders.  As you can see, in the stance he looks very low in the hind quarters but not as low in the gait. The head drops down and forward in the gait.   Just an example of how a picture compares with the dog on the move.

You might find it interesting to interrogate Koiranet the Finnish Kennel club website.

It give the inbreeding COI for any dog you enter in the database based on 8 generations.

the dog I am planning to take my girl to in October has a COI of 1.46

Here is the addy for his details on there and using the menu's you should be able to play around for other breeds and dogs.
http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoira.aspx?RekNo=FIN32947/02&R=242

It's a great site that, been able to find out that most of my boys hipscored offspring over there are quite good too!

Now wouldn't it be great if you could access the Kennel club database like that?  Imagine what a useful tool, being able to access the details of all a stud or broods offspring and their health records.

Yes it is a shame!!  I know my boys going to be called as his hipscores going to be out there any time now but on being able to look at that site I can see that around 80% of his offspring including grandchildren and great grandchildren are getting good scores abroad!

Luckily there are some other dogs here that have the same dogs in their pedigree that are scoring under our breed average but I only find that out by paying for the details!

Imagine what a useful tool, being able to access the details of all a stud or broods offspring and their health records.

Don't other breed clubs publish this? The Golden RC does in their yearbook, well for stud dogs anyway, you will find a list of stud dogs and not the names of the offspring, but how many percent of each score they have produced out of how many pups etc.

>Now wouldn't it be great if you could access the Kennel club database like that?  Imagine what a useful tool, being able to access the details of all a stud or broods offspring and their health records.<

Absolutely. They have the data - and really should be lobbied to spend some of that money you give them in registrations fees on creating such a resource. It could have a major impact on the future genetic health of our dogs.

No doubt the Data Protection Act would be cited. :(

They are a matter of public record, no addresses given, just what any of us can read in the BRS, but then they wouldn't get people buying that would they.

Just noticed that they now have a box on the Litter reg(had to sign one for our stud dog being used) that charges you and extra £20 for 3 gene and £25 for 5 generations to enter the details if you use a foreign stud dog.

The KC doesn't keep records of all the various health tests that the different breeds require (they don't record BAER results, for instance), so that information would have to come from somewhere else.

Yes but they do have Hips, eyes and Elbows, which is something, especially if you click on that report you can see the offspring, and their results all in one place, pretty useful tool for a breeder to see things like that laid out, as it will show the status of the partners too.

Certainly it'd be very helpful to have all the result collated rather than going from one website to another, and better than nothing.

I must admit I do have fears about putting breeding details on the net having heard stories (true? Don't know) that unscrupulous people copy them for their fabricated pedigrees.

Yes someone in my breed put details of pedigrees on her website, I warned about this because as we know a certain registration company registers dogs with Kennel names belonging to other breeds!!

Ah but if it were the KC official database people could actually check the veracity of the details, perhaps making it more difficult for these cheats, so things can often work two ways.

Have you looked on the site and compared COI's are they higher or lower than you expected?