I can't help being concerned at a few posts on here recently, where potentially dangerous assumptions have been made about the similarity of the case in question and someone else's experience.  The worst manifestation of this is along the lines of "My friend's vet recommended X and then Y happened and it was awful, so you shouldn't do it."  Anecdotal evidence gives only a partial picture and cannot therefore be prescriptive.

And though it's good to give your opinion and that is absolutely the point of the board, the danger for the OP is that those having had bad experiences are most strongly motivated to post and sometimes do so in very categorical terms.  Presumably most people do realise this is the nature of the beast and I also see others working hard at giving a balancing view.

So whether it's a case of mammary tumours, possible pyometra or knee surgery, I am horrified to think that a person may be put off a helpful or potentially life-saving intervention because one person had a bad experience with it or holds a grudge against their vet.

I think it's also fair to say that having access to a wide range of opinion on the potential risks and benefits of surgery, access to specialist opinion, a full history of the condition (as provided by the owner) and the benefit of examining the dog, to say nothing of his/her training and experience, the vet is well qualified to answer the sorts of questions posted here and appropriate weight should be given to his/her view for those reasons.  Otherwise, what are you really paying them for?

It's nice to have things over but there's more at stake with some health matters.

End of rant. Runs for cover.

I'm sure I hardly need to say this ;) but I entirely agree with all those points :)

Excellent points. :)

Great points.

If any of them are aimed at me, I have not had any bad experiences, but I have had a bitch with pyometra who had no problems after having strong antibiotics and died a year later of something totally different, but I know that from many other people the operation is the way to go, I was just extremely lucky with my girl and the vet didn't advise on her to be operated on either, again maybe due to her age and that she was also near the breed average in age too.  I don't know but as I say I was very lucky in her case.

Re. the mammary tumours again I advised that at the age of the bitch who was only 8 that she should talk it through more as at that age they would do better than my girl who is nearly 13 and at the breed average age anyway.  Each is also to their own also.

I don't think I've read anywhere that people have given their opinion that they shouldn't have any procedures just what's happened in their case which I think people are interested to know.  Let's face it in the long run it is up to them and their vets.  They are the only people who know how fit and what the dog is capable of going through.

Fair enough Lillith, but have to say I don't think I've ever seen anyone say 'so you shouldn't do it'.  I can understand your concerns but if someone asks for your experiences with something, what else are you supposed to give but those - good or bad.  It's no good saying consult your vet if they have obviously already done that.  I think it is then up to the OP to take into account, most certainly, what the vet has said along with the other input, make their own decision and take responsibility for it.  If you suggest otherwise, I would hope you are underestimating the judgement of the vast majority of people who use this board.

Unfortunately there are always a few who attack anyone who puts forward negative experiences on the grounds of scare-mongering :rolleyes: but as you say, both good and bad experiences need to be mentioned for a sensible person to be able to weigh up the risks.

Very true JG :)

I don't follow you JG.  If we acknowledge that bad experiences are far more likely to be voiced but that they may also be attacked doesn't it devalue the whole idea of basing decisions on message board anecdotes.
I think relating experiences are interesting and may provide comfort for someone facing a decision already made but I think it is important that we do not understate the importance of the role the vet has in the decision for that particular individual animal.
I do however think there is a special case when considering surgery for the elderly or for palliative care when the decision is entirely emotional driven.  Then, I think, other peoples experiences have as much value as anything else in helping the poster reach the decision right for them.

I don't think we can assume that a vet has been properly consulted we read time and again that people have been unwilling to do so for a variety of reasons.  Like Lillith I think it is important to encourage communication with a vet particularly if there has been any possibility that reading of others experiences with vets has discouraged it in the first place. 

I didn't say 'assume' Isabel, I said if it was obvious.  Actually, I think forums could actually be a helpful way of assisting the owner identify specific issues which he or she might want to raise with the vet for further clarification.  If someone gets on well with their vet, I doubt they would be put off from having discussions with him or her just because someone on here didn't like or had had bad experiences with their own vet!

If they haven't told us they asked a vet on a particular subject how can it be obvious?  We know from other posts that people don't ask for a variety of reasons.

I think if someone actually states they've already discussed it with the vet, why should I disbelieve them?

I appologise we are obviously not thinking of the same thread :) 

I wasn't thinking about any particular thread at all. :)

I was ;)

Very good and important points Lillith although TBH I'm not sure why you felt the need to make them   Having said that I've not been participating in the forum much of late.

However I've skimmed through the threads you mention and IMO they seem to be supportive of taking veterinary advice and, sometimes, seeking a second - veterinary - opinion.  I don't understand why you're "horrified that a person may be put off helpful or potential life-saving intervention! - it doesn't read to me that anyone is swayed towards ignoring vet advice

I think it's only natural that with unusual procedures or illnesses some posters may want to know if other members have personal experience of the post-op care, convalescence, recovery etc even although they will have (or should have) discussed same with their vet :)  I certainly hope there have been no posts to suggest that veterinary advice be ignored in favour of Joe Bloggs' advice re. Spot's solitary experience .......

There is far too much at stake with many health matters - which include food related issues - for anyone to take or fail to take action based on random opinions from strangers on an internet forum.

regards, Teri   :)

Let's hope with encouraging better communication they can obtain more information as whether the procedure is out of the ordinary or unusual to that vet in which case their advise can be further sought as to whether referral elsewhere would be appropriate. As Lillith says these are matters that a vet is well qualified to answer. 

I dont personally see your point other than one you've made elsewhere which I've provided my opinion on  

If a member asks for others' experiences on anything they are, by doing that, inviting the input of those that have "been in their shoes" - not looking to be referred back to their vet, doctor, lawyer, dentist, hairdresser or whatever else the topic may be about.

While I applaud the need for encouraging communication, particularly between client and vet, there is rather too much waffle input in a lot of threads which merely create ill feeling and the OPs query relating to actual experiences is all too often completely forgotten about :)

>OPs query relating to actual experiences is all too often completely forgotten about<

or worse ignored! :(

(((((((come out! come out where ever you are! lillith!!)))))))
No need to hide or duck for cover ;O) you've made a fair call I'd say.

Yes, that too HG :(

Hey, check out the speed of you :D :D :D whiz kid ;)

My point there was even the rarity of a procedure is best answered by a vet.  I haven't seen any response to the point previously appologises if I have missed it :)
I agree the waffle in these health threads can lead to ill feeling but a great deal of it is stems from unnecessary anti vet motivitations as alluded to in Lilliths points. Whatever the reasons behind that, some may be based on real letdowns some may be simply based on percieved ones it would be head in the sands not to acknowledge it occurs and if these were not responded to wrong impressions would snowball on.  And no, I most definately do not mean your posts, Teri :)

Having not got involved much recently on the forum but been reading it quite a bit on my insomniacal journies from TV to kitchen for caffeine replenishment and I wonder why I can't sleep :rolleyes: it's quite a wake up call (no pun intended) when seeing things as others see them.

Yes, some posters clearly have deep issues that would be best set aside when responding to certain subjects but also some other posters are very dismissive of valid argument too.

There is IMO too much strength of feeling on both sides of the fence, be it pro/anti whatever, and I can now see why the occasional "too scared to post" comment has its origins.

I think in the main this forum does encourage best practice on all matters canine and long may that continue but I also think we - yes, including myself - have to show a little more tolerance for differing views, experiences and practices.  

Teri
off to remove the "holier than thou hat" before it cuts of my blood supply ;)

I think in the main it does :)

I think that the problem with many people and even though I deal with the health service I know that |I'm as bad that many people:-

1)  Too worried to question someone who they feel is in higher authority
2)  You always forget what you really want to ask, or think of things afterwards that you wish you'd asked!
3)  You always need to know the good and bad of all things to make a realistic decision.

I think that this is a British :d failing in many ways that we don't question or try and find out more about things.

I've looked through again the ones that were mentioned and maybe my eyes are failing me but again I can't see anywhere where people have recommended not to have the procedures done or not to ask more from their vet etc.

I think this is a probably a pretty good assessment of some of the reasons but of course the real crux is how they have come about.  We can't really do much abouts people memories but encouraging them to overcome this fear of asking questions of authority figures who are in fact there to serve them can certainly be approached with gusto :)  The ability to request information from them that is either good or bad regardless should then follow on.  If people really don't want to know the full story I can't understand why they would want it from us either.

As I always advise patients before they come here, right everything down, symptoms, any questions etc. this way they can get a more definite detail on what's been happening, what can help them and what may need to happen in the future be it surgery or not.

Of course, excellent practice, so we can do something about the memory thing after all   All we have to do is remember to take the list with us ;)

I promised myself that I would just make the post and let other people argue over it ...

Teri, I said what I did partly because I have recently seen a number of negative posts about vets.  Also because - I'm trying to think of the least inflammatory way to say this - I felt there had been posts where people spoke more authoritatively than they should have.

I also posted because I can well imagine how veterinary staff feel when clients turn up claiming that they know more about their dog's condition or the most appropriate treatment than their vets do because they've researched a bit on the internet.  (Which is not to say that when my dog had an unidentified and serious disease, I didn't take my internet research into the vet and say, "What do you think about this?"  My vet took me seriously, checked the sources, sent off bloods for tests and did pretty well everything I think he could have done in the circumstances.)

I did not put myself in the firing line lightly, but because I felt that dogs could genuinely be put at risk by the steady drip drip of enthusiastic amateurs casting doubt on the value of their vet's opinion, diagnostic skills or motivations.

:-(

I can see your wider point Lillith - just not in the threads you mentioned.  I don't think you should feel that you've put yourself in the firing line at all as much of what you've commented on is valid and important for all posters to keep in mind :)

Equally there is often value in the information provided by the "enthusiastic amateurs" as many may well have very up close and personal experiences of an illness for eg and be able to direct a poster to suggesting something to their vet which may well have come up after a couple of weeks or more trial and error treatment, but not quite as soon as it should.   I can think of two such members immediately who have played a significant role in quite a few dogs being diagnosed with treatable but life threatening ailments, all because the enthusiastic amateurs shared their personal experience on recognising the similarity of symptoms.

Vets should always be everyone's first port of call in their animal's welfare - I'm sure we're all agreed on that - and equally owners should feel comfortable and confident to enquire about the finer details of diagnosis and treatment :)  We also have to remember that while a great many of us are confident enough to ask and have super vets with the patience of saints, not everybody will be so fortunate and may lack in one, other or both of these areas.

None of us is in a position to give the best advice all the time - this is an info exchange, nothing more nor less.  Although some folks may come across as having a self-proclaimed air of importance or authority, most of the membership are aware of these quirks - more often than not it is merely a writing style rather than a deliberate intention ;)

Don't Hide!   Teri    

I agree Teri that is an apropriate use of the forums and like Lillith says going back to your vets to say I have been told about this what do you think? is a perfectly reasonable way of going about things.  But as Lillith also says all this should be done with some thought.  The sort of messages that say, "change your vet, it is outrageous he has not thought of this" or "he must be wrong if he has already excluded it" are totally uncalled for as we have no idea, sitting here what the full history is and on what basis he is moving forward. The most likely cause which clearly should be investigated first is not necessarily the one we are most familiar with from our own experiences.  There may also be features of significance to him that the poster will have no idea to pass on to us even if we were qualified to pass judgement on them.
I hope I don't have to keep pointing out I am not suggesting you do any of this but I'm sure you have spotted a few of these posts yourself and know what I am talking about :)

I haven't taken any of your remarks here personally at all Isabel - so no need to point that out, but thanks anyway :)

Yes, I think we're agreed on the constraints of the advice appropriate to give on the forum, particularly because often very little detail is given and as you say even with all the facts we're not in a position to outsmart or compete at all with a professional treating the actual animal and knowing it's medical history etc.

I have on maybe a handful of occasions said that if I were a particular poster I would change vets - but only when I've felt that the situation as described in detail warrants the action I would personally take if I felt that communications between myself and vet were at breaking point.  I don't think it should be a bog standard argument for every time a vet hasn't done a full blood, faecal and urine panel to diagnose an upset tummy etc ;)

All any of us can do is try and best explain how we've dealt with a particular set of circumstances and hope that the OP is able to get some support, comfort or guidance from that to possibly better prepare them to discuss things more fully with a professional.

regards, Teri 

 

mmmmm.... so  think I'm one of the people that this post is aimed at as I did ask if anyone had experienced key hole surgery in a golden retriever!

I don't think that anyone with half a brain would not take their animal to the vet if there was a problem.  You might notice in my post that I said my friends had been to the vet and the vet advised key hole surgery (hence my question)!!!  My friends are not stupid and both have degrees one in law -  they are intelligent enough to know they are not experts regarding the health of their dog.  It does no harm to ask people about their experiences.  After all, isn't this how we bring up our children, through experience?

And this is what the forum is about, to discuss our pets, whether it is health, behaviour, feeding - just to get a feel of what's going on out there with other dogs.

I wish I had the advice of some of the people on this forum (you know who you are) when I had Spangler's patella operated on last year, it went drastically wrong twice and he nearly lost his leg - I changed specialists and his leg was saved thankfully.  If I had the advice then, I very probably wouldn't have gone through with his first surgery; however, that is hindsight.

I think there are a number of people who use this forum for the sole reason of arguing, they'd argue black was white if a post said they thought their vet maybe colour blind!

It's freedom of speach Lillith and if we didn't have that we would be in a very sorry state!!

Everyone's views, (and that includes people who are not the brightest) are important - and I'd be horrified if we didn't have that freedom!
Maria

  

I would have said the post was regarding the replies that people receive rather than those who ask the questions.
I'm afraid asking for others experiences was always going to be a little vague when none of us had any idea what condition or surgery was involved other than an arthroscopy.  I really think this is a clear example of more information to be sought from vet :)

I am not suggesting we do away with free speech, Maria, I'm suggesting we post with care.

HG, I wasn't hiding I was actually thinking hard about how to reply constructively (oh boy, did that hurt.)

And I'm not hiding now, I'm going to walk the naughty dogs. :-)

pheww!   I'm glad about that then Lillith!!

I do think most people do post with care though, and when you say there have been negative posts about vets it's usually with good reason, as are the positive posts about vets! 

I think what you may be in danger of doing with this type of 'post' is deter people from posting.

Also, I would imagine if some people receive agressive opinions to their topics then it would have the effect of them not posting = no forum = no good advice.   Which would be a pity as I have had some sound and knowledgeable advice from CD members.

That's all from me for now !

[deleted]

[deleted]

Hi,
As we now seem to be arguing about how we argue I have locked this one.
Regards,
Jeff.