This might be a strange question and is very much forward planning.  I don't breed yet, but have a bitch I am probably going to want to breed from in 2-3 yrs time, with the advice of her breeder, if all continues to go as well as it is now in terms of her working and showing careers. 

However, we live in a pretty small house, which we own, and I'm just wondering if it will be possible to have a litter here or not.  We're thinking of moving house for other reasons but we've only been in this place a couple of years, and so we may need to stay here longer in order to make a bit of money when we sell.

I'm just unsure of what the needs of a growing litter are, and I'd like to know more about this to help me make a decision about whether it will be possible to have a litter here or not.  (I'm even wondering if I could rent a place short-term to have the litter, then move back here, which is another option, but would be expensive.) 

We're talking about a large breed litter here.... My questions are:

How much space do the litter need?  Do they need, for eg, a whole room?  A large playpen?  (They wouldn't be in the pen all the time, and would come out to play for supervised sessions and as they get bigger, walked around town in a bag and so on - but would a large playpen be ok as their "base"?)

How much is the size of the space they need dependent on how big the litter is?

What is the relationship between dam and litter, as they grow?  Should the dam be able to get into the pen and to see them whenever she wants to, but also be able to get away from them whenever she wants to?  With our house layout, she could get into the pen, but if the pups were out of the pen playing, she wouldn't be able to retreat anywhere away from them, except for her crate, and I'd have to close her in there to stop the pups from following.

How much smell does a litter create?  When we've picked our pups up from breeders, a couple of breeders have had litters in their large kitchen/dining room areas.  I thought they would probably create a lot of smell, but perhaps not if breeders can have litters in their kitchens???  As we have a small house, any strong smell is going to permeate everywhere, including our eating area.

As I haven't bred a litter, I have no experience of pups 3-6 wks old.  What is their daily routine like?  Do they sleep a lot?

Thanks - like I said, this is a long way in the future, but it is one of the reasons we're thinking of moving house, and that will take a while to sort out!  I have a lot of time, as I work from home and wouldn't work while I had the litter, but not much space.

However, we live in a pretty small house, which we own, and I'm just wondering if it will be possible to have a litter here or not.

I think in most cases the space INDOORS matters a lot less than the space available OUTDOORS.(For my breed, my whelping box is 4' x 4' and fits in the living room.) It's more or less impossible (although I do know some people do it and I have the greatest respect for them!) to keep an entire litter of a large breed of pups indoors until 7 or 8 weeks old. They will also need to experience as much as possible and moving outdoors to a good kennel is a good thing, and gives the mother a break too. My pups move outdoors by 4 or 5 weeks of age, which is when they simply CANNOT be confined to a small area any more as they will be active and need to run around and play a lot. (And will also have learned how to climb out of the box!) My first ever litter was accidental so unplanned and although I had the weeks to prepare, I didn't believe it would be a problem to keep them indoors all the time. It was! I'll never forget it, it was a nightmare. I remember one day I brought the video camera out to film the destruction and mess as nobody would believe me otherwise. :)

My pups go out into an 14' x 8' kennel with an attached run which is 14' x 9'. They still need a run around the garden every day though at the age mine are now, which is 6 weeks. (My breed weighs 25-30 kgs as adults.)

(I'm even wondering if I could rent a place short-term to have the litter, then move back here, which is another option, but would be expensive.)

I think that is very unlikey to work due to the possible destruction. My indoor only litter completely destroyed my kitchen, down to removing skirting boards, shelves, ripping up the carpet and the plastic tiles AND removing the wallpaper. There were 9 and far too many to possibly crate or pen.

What is the relationship between dam and litter, as they grow?  Should the dam be able to get into the pen and to see them whenever she wants to, but also be able to get away from them whenever she wants to?

Here I can only speak from personal experience, and people's experieces (and bitches!) vary -I have seen many people here mention their bitches stay with the pups all the time. I've not been able to. I find for the first few days, the bitch doesn't leave the whelping box at all, having to be carried outside to toilet (and she may have accidents indoors), and fed in the box. For the next couple of weeks she stays close, spending hours in it but also taking breaks having a rest outside the box. By the time the pups start eating solids, she will take less and less of an interest. With my current girl, by 5 weeks of age she will feed them twice a day and that's it. Like I said mine are 6 weeks old today, and if I let mum in to feed them, she will let them suckle for 5 minutes max, then she will start screaming, howling, barking and jumping up into the air, trying to get away from them. (Knowing how much it hurts when they descend on my legs covered by jeans with their teeth and claws, I can imagine how her poor teats must feel!!) So yes, the bitch should be able to go to them whenever she wants, but it is equally important that she can get AWAY from them too.

How much smell does a litter create?  When we've picked our pups up from breeders, a couple of breeders have had litters in their large kitchen/dining room areas.  I thought they would probably create a lot of smell, but perhaps not if breeders can have litters in their kitchens???

Are you sure those people hadn't just moved them indoors for the occasion? Many do. I do myself, simply because it's easier to have somewhere to sit etc, than having to stand outside in a kennel or in the garden. They DO create a lot of smell and they do need a LOT of cleaning. I remember a friend of mine who had a large breed of pups that she kept indoors until 6 weeks. She used to come downstairs in the morning and vomit the first thing she did, as the smell hit her -because they were such big pups (much bigger breed than mine). Of course, the smell is kept at a minimum with careful management, but first thing in the morning for instance it can be bad, and after each meal there will be a lot of poo to clear up, and it is a lot easier away form the house. The bitch will eat all the puppy poo until they are 3-4 weeks odl (again varies in bitches) and during that time it's a lot easier of course.

As I haven't bred a litter, I have no experience of pups 3-6 wks old.  What is their daily routine like?  Do they sleep a lot?

Sleep a lot, play a lot, eat a lot, poo and wee a lot, and also make quite a bit of noise! :) It's like babies. One moment they can be running around playing, the next they all fall asleep in a heap. The older they get, the less they sleep of course and playtimes get longer, but each playtime (such as running aruond in the garden) helps to tire them out. They usually fall asleep after a meal.

As for the noise, hungry pups can create a LOT of noise, and tend to wake you up in the morning not barking but screaming -they're impatient!

Daily rotuine from 3 weeks onwards would involve feeding 4 or 5 times, a lot of cleaning, a lot of playing and handling etc -it does take a lot of time.

Like I say, everyone will have different experiences, these are my own. :) A smaller litter of a smaller breed (I've never had less than 6 pups) would of course generate less mess, need less space etc.

I've only bred one litter myself, a smallish litter of 4 border collies but found they did take up the whole kitchen. They were obviously in their whelping bed the first couple of weeks. When their eyes opened I took the front off the box during the day and gave them access to the kitchen with a dog gate across the door to keep the rest of the pack out. My girl never wanted to be seperate from them at this age. When the pups got to around 5 weeks they were such hard work, constantly watching them, clearing up after them and letting mum in and out the gate as she wanted. Not to mention socialising, playing etc. I'd imagine at this age a play pen wouldn't be big enough. I didn't notice a smell at all to be honest, bedding was washed a couple of times a day, a constant stream of wasing and dirty papers. Even coming down first thing in the morning when they 6 weeks old there wasn't really a smell, I think they pretty much slept all night apart from peeing on the papers. I had my litter in the summer, which was deliberate and a good plan. It meant as soon as the pups could get up and down 1 step safely I could let them in the back garden to play and do the toilet. I also let them in the livingroom every night when the tv was on, but only one at a time to watch them properly - too many cables etc to eat! So, in my opinion you can quite easily have a litter in a smallish house, but have to be prepared to sacrifice one room - in my case the kitchen :)

Blimey, I was writing my reply at the same time as Goldmalis. I think I was extremely lucky then :D My pups didn't do any damage whatsoever to the kitchen, The floor was pretty much covered in bedding and papers which got chewed up, and masses of toys, empty plastic bottles, cardboard boxes and stuff to entertain them, all of these they wrecked but nothing actually of any importance, not a mark on the floor, skirting boards, units or anything. That said, I'll never have another litter though, I wanted to have one from this particular girl but I prefer to keep dogs and the sheer amount of work and worry, not to mention 8 weeks of work, definitely put me off :)

Must say my experience of 3 or 4 pups has been very similar and very civilised, even up to the pups tending to sleep and play at the same time.

Totally different kettle of fish with litters of 7 to 9.  The amount of poo and noise is easily doubled and they do things in shifts so you never get a break.

I live in a suburban house and from 6 weeks until they go I live on a knife edge with worrying abut noise and neighbours.

I have had individual pups in my last litter wake up at 2AM at 7 weeks and refuse to go back to sleep, screaming for attention.  We had a very warm spell last summer and they slept loads in the day, and wanted to play at night

I too cannot imagine rearing a litter entirely indoors.

Mine spend first two weeks in a 3 foot by 3 foot whelping box.  They then come downstairs and their cage and pen are 3feet by 5feet, that is as much space as they can have in the kitchen.  By 4 weeks they need SPACE and start going outside into the double kennel 2 x five feet square with connecting door open, and a 10 feet by 20 foot run.

I then do musical puppies bringing them inside to clean their outside accommodation and outside again to clean their pen and the kitchen floor.

They also come in one at a time into the living room to watch TV etc.

It is very time consuming, and gets more so the older they get, and you can't count on them all being homed by 8 weeks.  I usually work on some likely to be with me until 12 - 14 weeks.

Because of neighbour worries I prefer to have winter litters, but they are a lot more work to keep dry and clean.

Mine is just a medium size breed 20kg for adult bitches.

I have a litter of 8 Lab puppies, 7 1/2 weeks old, who are in my kitchen, I have had to sacrifice most of the kitchen space for the last week and my puppy pen has now been extended to full capacity at 80" x 98", they have plenty of room to run and play, the smell in the morning really isn' that bad, there are at most just the 8 poo's, 1 for each of them ;), I don't have a big house and the kitchen is open to the lounge, we don't suufer from too much smell as long as we clean up quick :-p

The puppies settle down to sleep as soon as we turn out the lights and go to bed, and we don't hear a peep from them until I come down in the morning at 7 am to give them breakfast.

Speaking for myself onetwothree, I always breed in my conservatory, I use a large covered 42" crate for the whelping and the pups are fine in this size crate, it would be good for a large breed too, so for the first two weeks this would be ok for you and your girl, mum cleans up after the pups so all is well for those first two weeks, :-) I leave the crate open so mum will come and go as she pleases and has access from the conservatory to the main house.

Once the pups start to venture out of the crate I then put a gate across the conservatory and the pups have the room to themselves for play without incroaching into my living space and the outdoor garden to run and play in, they need lots of playing area,(of course I spend most of my time in the conservatory) this also speeds up toilet training, as they prefer by 5-6 weeks to go outside especially to do their poo's my bitch will sit at the gate when she wishes to re-join her pups or come back into the main house and comes and goes as she pleases. I prefer my bitch to always have full access.

I wouldn't contemplate breeding a large or even small breed in a small house, unless you have a good size kitchen and then have an opened back door leading from that for the pups to come and go when larger. (Weather permiting.)

The only reason I say this, is nothing to do with having a small house, but to do with hygiene, :-P you need a place for the pups which is easy to clean up the messes and easily aired, and believe me pups wee and poo constantly, and I mean constantly!!! Also overnight even with newspaper the smell that greets you in the morning is not pleasant and in a smaller enclosed home it would not be nice at all. I think you would regret doing it, there is a very good reason why a lot of people do their breeding outside! 

A conservatory is a great substitute I personally would not contemplate breeding without one.  The one thing that has always put me off ever buying a pup is going into a smelly house. So without a reasonable space and lots of airing, you are not going to get away with it.

I know you are no novice and very knowledgeable, but I would think about renting, or adding on a conservatory for everything to run nice and smoothly, and for you and the pups to have a happy, stress free relationship.

Just my opinion, I like a nice fresh home. You don't realise until you breed, just how bad it gets. :-)

 

I always wonder with those who use conservatories how you cope with the extremes of temperature these structures are prone to?

Just to add a couple of other points to think about.

Firstly by 6 weeks most pups are also quite vocal, so there is the noise aspect to think of re: the neighbours, especially if in a built up area. If breeding in late Spring/Summer you must also be prepared for pups waking up at approx 4.30am due to the light and they are extremely noisy when they do.

Also depending on when you start to advertise your pups, (I know you would be an A1 breeder from your posts and being so knowledgeable) mine are advertised from 5 weeks in whelp and from that time I have potential puppy owners flooding my home to see the parents, then to see the pups, and believe me enthusiastic owners, bring their families, friends, even bosses to see their future pups, so be prepared for anything from 2-10 people coming to view one pup and if you are anything like me these people are in your home for an hour or so, so you would need to have room for long visititations and car space.

To answer Brainless re: temps in conservatories, in the colder months it is central heated just like the rest of the house, and in the Summer/warmer weather (when we have it :-D) the doors and roof windows are always open, I have never had a temp prob, but I also use mine as an open plan part of the house, there are no closed doors it is an extension to the main building, which is why I choose to put an large extended gate across the conv for pups containment rather than close the doors, this way air flow is the same as in the home.

My main concern was the roof, as they do warm up and cool down very fast.  My friends have a conservatory they use the same way as you, one side being a solid wall, with triple shaded roofing, and it is quite comfortable, though still gets much warmer than the rest of the house, but other conservatories I have been in have basically been greenhouses, not somewhere I would spend time out of choice not being a sun worshipper.

Having a coated breed I have found winter litters easier than warm weather ones, finding it easier to provide heat than keep them cool, and as has been said the neighbours are less an issue as pups wake later with shorter daylight.

Ah ha, now I see where you are coming from.  I also have electronic blinds in my conv roof and sides, which stops the sun on really strong days from warming up the room too much, when I have summer pups the roof blinds are always down. I also have a large open 15ft entrance to my conv from my dinning room, so heat does not build up in there as there is plenty of airing even without the patio doors being open.

But nethertheless, I know plenty of people with smaller consveratories who as long as doors are open at entrance and garden exit the heat does not build up, blinds are very important though.

I know what you mean though, I went to look at one of those new design glass houses recently, all open plan with glass everywhere, it was a hot day and I rushed to get out, greenhouse is the right word, but I guess with blinds it may have been different.

My litters are born and spend the first three weeks under a table in either the dining-room or the 'junk' room. Once they can get out of the whelping box they go into the utility room with its tiled floor and a barrier at the door. From 5 weeks they start spending time outside, weather permitting, and also in the kitchen and sitting room, getting used to household noises. There's a removable barrier about 15 inches high at the utility room door so the pups can be confined in there some of the time, but at about 7 weeks they have pretty much free access to the kitchen (with another 15" barrier at the door to the rest of the house) and securely-partitioned garden. Mum has free access to them at all times, and can escape to another room whenever she wants.

Maybe a toy breed would have enough room in a playpen, but a medium sized breed (labrador, dalmatian etc) would need very much more.

Pups at 3 weeks are very easy - you're just starting to wean and they sleep a lot. At 4 weeks they're starting to find their feet and are becoming more active. The fun really starts between 6 weeks and 8 weeks when they leave!

There's a removable barrier about 15 inches high at the utility room door so the pups can be confined in there some of the time, but at about 7 weeks they have pretty much free access to the kitchen (with another 15" barrier at the door to the rest of the house) and securely-partitioned garden.

Blimey JG my pups climbed the 18" front of the whelping box at 4 weeks !! Not having bred any other breed I don't know how mych pups normally can do, I now think mine must be in army training already LOL!!

LOL! I know the barrier isn't as much as 18", but is more than a foot. The whelping-box wall is about 10 inches high and that's enough to confine them till about 3 weeks or so. Belgians are taller than dals, aren't they?

They are a little bit bigger yes. :) Probably lighter too.

I had a litter of 7 boxers about 14 weeks ago now. I was lucky enough to have a utility room which I boarded out, sides and back and put a removable front panel which changed in height as the puppies got bigger but still enabled mum full access to them at all times. They stayed here until they left me at 8 weeks. It was probably an area of about 5ftX6ft. By the time they were 5 weeks the weather was pretty good thank God and I would put them outside every meal time for an hour or so in a safe confined area. This was great as I could clean them out and they would come in absolutely knackered. This was especially necessary in the morning as they sure did hum ding. Worst part of the day. Watching them play outside was wonderful. The last couple of days was the hardest as they needed alot of one on one care and were definately ready for their new homes. I would often come downstairs in the morning and find one or two of them sat at the bottom watching me. It was always the same ones as they had learnt to jump the barrier and there was no stopping them. It was alot of hard work and at the time I said I would never do it again but I actually think I would, not with Roxy though as she had such a bad time. It is definately not how I imagined it to be and was much much much smellier than i realised. The house smelled so sweet when they left but I do miss them like mad. One has gone just up the road so I see him all the time which probably makes me miss them all more. Good luck with any future litters.

Thanks everyone for your replies so far - they are very useful - the more people I hear from, the better idea I'll have about this, so please keep replies coming, thanks.

So far, I think it would be possible to have a litter in this house, although it wouldn't be ideal.

Have to say that ours are in the dining/living room area.  It's only 7 weeks out of our lives which isn't much.  My breed cannot be outside in a kennel it just does them no favours they need to be where everyone is for socialisation purposes.

I only know of one litter here in the UK where the litter was reared in a kennel and unfortunately their temperaments were not good later on in life.

There is a difference between rearing in a kennel and them having use of one for some part of their rearing and day. 

Without me having a kennel when the weather is bad the poor pups would be very cramped indeed if I didn't have the roomy kennel giving them a  much larger floor area than they can get in the kitchen.

Also you can never be sure the pups will be homed by 8 weeks, I have found that I rarely have more than a couple of pups gone by that age for one reason or another with people finding a different weekend convenient etc.

There is a difference between rearing in a kennel and them having use of one for some part of their rearing and day.

Exactly. In many ways it's just somewhere for the pups to sleep at night to keep the house cleaner. :)

My litter of 8 (you know the breed) were born in the spring and remained for the first almost 3 weeks in the whelping box in our bedroom.  After that they still spent overnight in our bedroom but with a larger bed and penned off to prevent tiny gnashers sampling any wires etc ;)

During the day they were all over the house and by 4/5 weeks spent a few hours (broken up into approx 1-1.5 hr intervals) in the garden - always accompanied of course.   They were only returned to a large puppy pen (actually two fixed together) when being fed and at bedtime.  They sleep a lot and then have wild crazy bursts of energy before seemingly dozing off mid-games :)

I don't have kennel facilities and personally wouldn't want them but that is individual choice of course.   Pups do make a lot of mess, aroma :rolleyes: and noise but with me dancing attention on them night and day for the entire time they were with us, chaos was kept to a minimum and a hygeinic environment (for them and us) carefully maintained.  It's very do-able, but very hard work!

As to possibly renting while having a litter, personally I think you'd be hard pushed to find an agreeable landlord - regardless of monetary bribes.

regards, Teri    

Did you take all the carpet up where they were able to run?  The only washable floor in my house is the kitchen (well upstairs bathrom too) so pups can only be in carpeted areas one at a time under close watch.

Hi Barbara,

I bought cheap lino to put over the carpet areas and kept my Bissell topped up with shampoo for bits they (I :rolleyes: ) missed :)   It was mostly just mopping over the lino several times a day and the kitchen floor is tiled - they kinda liked the tiles - were always wandering into the bathroom too :D   Once they were down for the night I shampoo'd the carpet in the lounge and hall before I went to bed - worth it :)

I thought it would be a nightmare keeping on top of things but it was possible - of course we had a lot of take away food and micro meals in those weeks because I was too tired / busy to shop or cook!

 

Just goes to show how there is no one way to do it, that suits everyone, and what a lot of ingenuity can do. :D

LOL - yeah, I forgot about the lino when answering 123 :P  I also had waterproof dust sheets too - heck the more I think of it, we were camping indoors :D :D :D

Teri

My litters have mostly been born and kept in a spare bedroom. :) Where I am now the floors are all concrete, making it very easy to keep clean with a jet hose :) I would be scared to leave them in a kennel outside, no matter what time of day. Mind you, I only live about 150 yards from the main northbound dual carriageway I have puppy panels that will fit the bedroom very snugly, but will leave room for mum to escape and watch if she wants to. When the pups are old enough they are taken outside into the back garden, under supervision, so that they can 'taste' the outside world (grass, leaves, vegetables etc) and the bedroom gets thoroughly washed every time. Of course I would have laid down tons of newspaper in the bedroom first.

I found that different foods make the pups poo smell differently. Some stronger than others. Or at least it seems to when I've visited other peoples pups and asked what they are fed on ;) Maybe I just got used to the smell of my own pups :) Or I'd been away from a litter for a while so the smell was more noticable :D

Look at your own breed, find out what the biggest litter has been, and ask yourself "could I get that many in this space?" Because you will need it :)