To be perfectly honest with you I'd only titre test if the cost of the test was taken off the cost of any vaccine. Otherwise I'd just go ahead and have the vaccines done. That's my personal choice.

To be perfectly honest with you I'd only titre test if the cost of the test was taken off the cost of any vaccine

Exactly, and that's where the drug companies come in - they manufacture these vaccines, for them it's for profit not
health, so they should subsidise the costs of the titre !

I have more faith in the licencing procedures keeping our animals the safest than titre testing.  I would prefer to stick to that but as I said anyone can titre test if they want just don't force the rest of us :)

You said legislation.  I might do it if I thought it had any value in predicting whether my dog would have immunity throughout the coming year but as it will only tell me that she still has immunity at that point (which you would hope so if it was within the period expected to provide immunity) I really don't see the point. 

It's cost Maria.  I did read somewhere that when the vaccination protocol was first introduced, they were considering titre testing as an option but then decided to annual booster instead as they thought most wouldn't pay for it and more pets would go unprotected.

However, there is no reason that I can see as to why there couldn't be a recommendation passed to vets to offer boostering or titre testing or both to clients.   A lot of people don't know about the titre testing option.   I only found out last year.  I also found out that some clients have been titre testing their dogs for years.  Now I would have definitely opted for that option and would have done so years ago if I had known, instead of dosing my dogs with unneeded drugs every year.  

Now I would have definitely opted for that option and would have done so years ago if I had known, instead of dosing my dogs with unneeded drugs every year.  

Spender - I only found out about them after my dog died from his booster (too late)  this is why I want to make it known to the majority of pet owners, as I've said in the past, most are ignorant about vaccines as I was!

Maria

Just out of interest, what would happen if the titre test results indicated that boostering was necessary, and yet the animal had a bad reaction to the vaccine?

I'm not sure what you mean by 'what would happen' JG

However, if every precaution was taken beforehand to ensure the animal needed a vaccine, at least the pet owner would know that the animal hadn't been given an unnecessary jab, and had been given it for his/her best interests!

From most research though, reactions happen from over vaccination, so it would be unlikely, not impossible though!   Obviously nothing is 100% but the closer we can get to that the better.

If that was the case then (Sorry Christine ) Christines pup wouldnt have reacted adversely when he had his first ever vaccine.

Thats ok S/C :)

Thing is we`ll never know now will we! I had asked about titre for the litter, see post above.
There was a lot of things that was done wrong that day, I`ve since read you shouldn`t vax in hottest part of day, they were vaxed in June at 2.30pm, ver hot! Adult dogs were done at same time, which shouldn`t be when a litters being done. I never saw the cool box they were supposed to be in. It was a new vax by Merial, vet changed manufacturer after Reddies reaction, back to old manu, (Intervet)
It had Lepto in it, you can`t titre for that anyway, shouldn`t be given so young, they weren`t in any danger of contracting it.

Too many things done wrong :(

But if titring decreases the risks & its all there is at the moment! then thats the way to go :)

So you think now it could have been the administration of the vaccine that was at fault?
How would titre testing have affected that?

It was the vaccine that caused the adverse reaction, thats what I know

If the litter had been titred like I wanted I have every reason to believe we would have found them to have high circulating maternal antibodies & vaccination wouldn`t have been needed at the age they were, which was 8 wks old.

Thats how titre testing would have affected the whole outcome

It may have been maternal antibodies and you might have delayed vaccination although lots of puppies are vaccinated at this young age, I believe all the GDB puppies are started very early, 2000 puppies a year I was told.  But if you are saying you think it was missadminstered ie wrong storage, wrong ambient temperature etc you can't really be sure if that wasn't the cause.

>>>really be sure if that wasn't the cause.<<<

No I couldn`t be sure, but Dr Dodds was & she could prove it, actually told me herself :)

It was the vaccine, no doubt about it.

Well quite, but it was you that said you understood that the mishandling of the vaccine could render it harmful. 

No I just said what happened truthfully.

And I`ve always said the vaccine caused the reaction. And the vets treating my pup at the time did as well.

And you know I`ve always said that Isabel

Yes I'm not saying it could not be the vaccine but that the vaccine can be rendered harmfull by the way it was handled.  You pointed this out yourself.

Don`t twist my words, I know what I said its there in black & white.

I gave a run down what happened that day.

Things that shouldn`t have been done that were done.

3 vets are of the opinion it was the vaccine that caused the reaction, 1 of them an expert in her field. I also believe it.

You can believe whatever you wish :)

You don't seem to be following what I am saying.  I'm not saying it wasn't the vaccine but that vaccines can be altered to become a danger by mishandling.

If vaccines (like any medicine) aren't kept at the right temperature, for example, their efficacy will be compromised.

Not just their efficacy.  I seem to recall a spate of cat deaths attributed to a particular flea treatment that was found to be the use of out of date products.

They weren`t out of date, I still have vax cards with the stckers & data of the vax in them. It was needed to make the suspected adverse reaction report.

I'm not suggesting they were Christine, just giving an example of how adminstration issue could affect outcomes.

If that was the case the vax would have affected adversely more than 1 pup. 9 pups in total were vaxed that day plus 7 adults plus 1 cat.

I put the low down on what happened that day just so people who vax wouldn`t do it that way.

I utterly appreciate that this was a terrible time for you, but do you think there's even a remote possibility that it could have been a genetic fault in that individual pup that caused such an extreme reaction? Unless pups in a litter are identical twins from the same gamete, they're no more closely related genetically than human siblings born at different times.

No I don`t J/G. Of course I considered it in the begining, its the reason I take a keen interest in auto immune disease. I`m on the look out with my dogs for anything & I`m right, do a blood test lets see to make sure!!! :D

But after speaking with Dr Dodds, no not now she was so sure it wasn`t. And I was pesueded?? not to have a biopsy on him, nothing sinister just OH & vet thought I had enough on my plate with the others being ill by then.

ps know Ive spelt persueded?? wrong but can`t think, its past my bedtime :D

If they all received the same batch, well obviously not the cat :) that seems to imply there is not anything to worry about regarding the handling issues.

But I never said it was ;)

I mentioned it because I know full well its a very important aspect, not so much the handling, they`re in vials but the temperature they`re kept at.

I'm confused then :)  You mentioned it in the first place and then said this

>I put the low down on what happened that day just so people who vax wouldn`t do it that way

as though you thought it was an issue.
You have edited your post above.
I am even more confused.  You either think it can affect the safety of the vaccine in which case why don't you think it applied in your case? or you don't in which case what does it matter about storage
etc?
By handling I don't mean literally :D 

I`ve said what I said, nothing more & nothing less. I`ve give an explanation and I`m not going to keep on giving more

I don`t remember if I edited it or not now, I was making typos last night it was late, for me anyway & can only assume it was because I`d made another typo in that post.

The editing was of no significance, Christine, it was just my explanation for adding to my post :)

I think they`re meaning my pup hadn`t been vaccinated before, it was his 1st vax M so couldn`t be due to over-vaxing:)

I`ve explained what I think in post somewhere, don`t know where it`ll end up :D

Oh I know what you went through Christine I was watching and reading and I can totally understand why you have done the research you have and why you choose the course you do with your dogs.
I can also see the otherside as these diseases were killers and although not eradicated they have a very greatly reduced incidence since vaccination was introduced. Would that increase again if we all stopped vaccinations ?? Never going to be proved either way. We all have to do what we feel is the best for our dogs and to the best of our ability which does include looking at all sides of the debate from every angle.
Profits are being  and will be made but then research can also continue and I dont think that should ever stop as all our comforts and health advances are down to research with interested parties questioning results and conclusions, being part and parcel of the process. So I'm still in the process of deciding for my dogs

That's a very good summary, Gillian.

Yes I too can see both sides S/C but I doubt very much if new research is being done. Look how long its taken for info to come out that vax last longer than a year

>>Would that increase again if we all stopped vaccinations<<

If the initial 1 or 2 vax gives lifetime immunity, how could it? All vaxed animals would have immunity.

I actually wasn't talking about just vaccination research I was broadening it to research in general.
Also it wasnt clear either that I said all vaccinations, no initial ones either and there is still the question of IF  the initial ones give lifetime immunity I tend believe they do myself but it would need to be more widely accepted for the present guidelines to be changed once more.

Oh right S/C :)

Well thats what Schultz has found, after the initial vax & certainly after another one after the age of 6mths.

Have you read it?

http://www.critteradvocacy.org/The%20Science%20Has%20Been%20Done.htm

Hal Thompson from Glasgow believes adno vax gives lifetime immunity.

Oh i`m under no illusion the guidlines won`t be changed in the near future, its taken long enough to get 3yrly :rolleyes: but unless people like myself who do believe the research thats already been done, question why nothing more is being done, keep making a noise about things, then nothing more will be done :)

Yes Christine I have read all the links that have been posted on this thread and over time I have followed this debate back and forth. :) You were prompted to investigate this from personal experience I also know someone who would never ever consider a puppy from a bitch that hasn't been vaccinated  because of the traumatic loss they suffered. Thats why it has to be a personal decision that people are happy to live with.

Nice to know you follow them S/C :)

Of course its a personal choice but one I really hope is made with all relevant info :)

I can imagine how they feel :(

forgot to add vaccination isn`t the only way to achieve immunity :)

Well, dogs die in routine neutering operations from reactions to the anaesthetic and we don't take that as a reason not to neuter any dogs, do we?

>>dogs die in routine neutering operations from reactions to the anaesthetic and we don't take that as a reason not to neuter any dogs, do we<<

Neutering is a 1 off, vaccinations are done on a regular basis, continually challenging the immune system, its a completely different issue & bears no comparison.

I think it is a very pertinent example of another area where risks are evaluated against benefit.  Neutering may only be a one off but many would say the benefits are considerably less than vaccinating against life threatening diseases.

Well I knew about them & wanted to have my litter done but when I asked vet about it he told me it couldn`t be done here.

You all know what happened :(

Taking their time aren`t they M :rolleyes:

Nothing yet from the contact I gave you?

no not yet Annie, but I'm sure they will soon!

You might be better to try phoning them - they might get deluged in emails!