Hi

Wonder if anyone can help. What happened with the Animal welfare bill about Docking in the Scottish Parliment yesterday. I have read in the paper that docking is now banned in Scotland but it doesnt give any details.

Is this a total bann or are working dogs excempt. and how are they going to stop people hopping over the boarder to England to get the tails done?

I have been trying to look on the net but my Pc is playing up and keeps crashing.

Thanks in advance

Wendy

Hi

Due to the lack of replies I am wondering if anyone is interested but if they are I have found a article on the web that says all docking is banned in Scotland including working dogs. There may be a amendement at a later stage but in the mean time the docking stops. it was the vets that pushed it for all dogs. Wonder why they are so keen to stop docking.

Having a docked breed I am very sad about this. Looks like I will have to move south.

Crazy isn't it?  It looks as though the Bill will have to be passed here to have any effect in Scotland otherwise people will just pop over the border to dock their dogs.

As for passing the Bill itself it poses questions for me such as how many vets supported the Bill?  How many have been brow-beaten into accepting the Bill as there seems to be a degree of defeatism about the whole topic.  I feel very sad for the dogs that will be adversely affected by the Bill.

Hi Folks..............this is what you are looking for
regards
Pauline
NEWS RELEASE
Wednesday 31 May 2006

DELIGHT AS SCOTTISH PARLIAMENT VOTES TO BAN ALL TAIL-DOCKING OF DOGS
HISTORIC DAY AS PARLIAMENT SUPPORTS NEW ANIMAL WELFARE LEGISLATION

Advocates for Animals is delighted that the Scottish Parliament has
today
voted to ban all tail-docking of dogs. Members of the Scottish
Parliament
(MSPs) voted by three to one in support of the Scottish Executive's
proposal
to prohibit the mutilation at today's Stage 3 and final debate on
the Animal
Health and Welfare (Scotland) Bill.  All tail-docking is to be
ended, both
for cosmetic purposes and for working dogs. In addition, it will be
an
offence to take a dog from Scotland to be tail-docked in another
country.

Tail-docking is the painful amputation, without anaesthetic, of all
or part
of a puppy's tail. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons, British
Veterinary Association, the British Small Animals Veterinary
Association,
the majority of Scottish vets and people in Scotland support the ban
on all
tail-docking in Scotland, except for the therapeutic docking of an
injured
or diseased tail.

DUTY OF CARE
The new Bill will update Scottish animal welfare legislation, much
of which
is nearly 100 years old.  Advocates is pleased that the Bill not only
retains the existing prohibition against cruelty and causing
unnecessary
suffering, but also places a duty of care on people who keep
animals.  This
means that the owner or keeper of an animal will be required to take
reasonable steps to ensure its welfare.

EXTENDED SLAUGHTER POWERS
Advocates is very disappointed that MSPs voted against Amendments to
the
Animal Health section of the Bill which called for the Executive to
base any
decision to slaughter animals in the event of an infectious disease
outbreak
on veterinary and scientific advice. However, before using the new
unlimited
slaughter powers, the Executive must now explain why it has chosen
to use
these powers.

UPCOMING ISSUES
Many controversial animal welfare issues are not included in the
Bill, but
will be dealt with in regulations made under the Bill over the
coming months
and years.  Advocates hopes that these regulations will:
·       Prohibit the use of wild and domestic animals in circuses
·       Ban the importation into Scotland of puppies from puppy farms
·       Restrict the keeping of exotic animals as pets
·       Strengthen the law on pet shops
·       Regulate the sale of animals on the internet
·       Ban the sale and use of electric shock collars for dogs
·       Ban temporary pet fairs and markets
·       Prohibit greyhound racing
·       Regulate the welfare of pheasants intensively reared for
shooting

Advocates' Director, Ross Minett, says: "This is a historic day for
animal
welfare in Scotland. Our understanding of, and attitudes towards,
animals
have changed much over the years and this new legislation is
urgently needed
to reflect these changes.
We are delighted that the Scottish Parliament has today voted to
prohibit
all tail-docking of dogs. At long last we will see an end to this
painful
and unnecessary mutilation in Scotland. This ban has widespread
support
amongst vets and the people of Scotland. We congratulate the Scottish
Executive for proposing this ban and members of the Scottish
Parliament for
supporting it.
We are very disappointed that the Parliament did not vote to require
the
Scottish Executive to base future infectious animal disease slaughter
policies on scientific and veterinary advice and we hope that the
Parliament
will not come to regret this decision.
As Scottish people we like to think of ourselves as a nation of
animal
lovers that lead the way in animal welfare matters. This new Bill is
a good
start. However, over the coming months regulations will be made on
many more
important animal welfare issues, giving the Scottish Executive and
Scottish
Parliament a real chance to turn these fine words into reality.

- ENDS ­

Hi

That is it

So  you cant even take your pups over the boarder to get them done.

It really annoys me when they refure to docking as the painfull amputation without anaesthetic. Wonder how many people have witnessed it done properly. If it is painfull surely a small jag of local in the tail would solve that problem.

Talking about it at work this morning and the feeling is it must be cruel or else the vets wouldnt want to ban it. Every one agrees that vets are more into money these days than animal welfare so they are loosing out by getting it banned. This is there thoughts not mine. These are people that have one dog as a pet. None of them knew anything about it and cringed when I explained how it was done. One said how cruel I was and she could never put her dog through that. Interestinly we had a conversation about ear peircing a couple of weeks ago and this person had said how her daughter had screamed blue murder when she had her ears done as a baby. I reminded her of this and asked if she thought it was cruel putting her daughter through that purley for cosmetic reasons............

I am fed up about this can you tell

Wendy

>Every one agrees that vets are more into money these days than animal welfare

That is a foul slur.

Totally absurd :(  Personally, I think the majority of vets get this particular issue wrong but I have always felt it is because so many of them have no real experience of the actual procedure.  I have never, never felt it was not based on real concern for animal welfare no matter how misguided.  There does seem to be a minority that doubt vets' motives these days but it always strikes me that at least one or two of them are diverting attention from the fact that they resent the cost of quality health care for their animals :rolleyes:

Where I work there is a move to restructure the management level.  The way it is being done seems to be a deliberate attempt to undermine the confidence of those at management level.  This un-nerving of people has now filtered down to the level below.  As I read it, what will happen is that when jobs are cut no one will complain but there will be a keeping a low profile and attempts to secure what jobs there are.  There are many clever strategies to make people comply with all sorts of things that presented in another way would result in different responses.

We don't know why vets have supported this Bill, how many vets actually involved or how the docking issue was 'sold' to them.  Probably, like Isabel has already said, many vets are not experienced with the procedure and consequently it does not affect them directly.  This leaves a minority who are unlikely to fly in the face of their peers.  I don't blame the vets for the Bill.

I wonder what impact it will have on breeding in Scotland?  Generally (as advocated on here) a good dog is worth travelling for and distance shouldn't be an option when picking a new pup but the tail issue may mean an otherwise ideal line may be overlooked due to the tail.  Personally I prefer dogs to have tails but I don't work dogs and for lazing on the sofa and playing on the beach my animals don't need their tails docked.
would any of you who have docked breeds rule out breeders from Scotland now due to the new ruling?

If someone who owns, shows, breeds one of these breeds of dogs truely loves them, and appreciates everything about them as a dog, the length of tail really shouldnt pose a problem, as a dog is far more than a tail. The breed standards have for some time now accepted tails, so as a show dog there shouldnt be a problem except where a dog is shown alongside docked dogs with a judge that has a preference for docking, will they be able to put the tailed dog above the docked one, if it derserves to be there except for a personal opinion on docking? As to the genuine working people, then I can see this will be a genuine health concern for them. For them, I can see dogs having to undergo amputations at an older/juvenlie/adult age with all the healing problems associated with this operation. It will certainly be interesting to see if this is the case, although not an interest to take delight in, unless of course, the tails do not become any more damaged than any other working but undocked breed.

There are lots of threads about this issue Calmstorm were you will find all views on this matter but I would just point out that show dogs don't always realise they just show dogs when they are exercising in the manner and terrain that their working brothers' use.
As it happens, Lumphy, I have bought every one of my dogs from Scotland despite living in England for 20 years, I really don't know what I will do now though as I expect this will spread to England in the long run and I really don't what to own a dog that is not going to enjoy the freedom of exercise that mine have always enjoyed :(

would you stop your dog excercising in that sort of terrain "just in case" it damaged its tail

Yes I think I would have to.  These injuries are very nasty and bone infections are notoriously difficult to treat with antibiotics.  One of my neighbours has always had springers, working stock, as they are mostly in lakes, but they have always been pets.  She has two at the moment and her most recent was tailed.  She never thought about it, just accepted that is what they come like now but that dog has had constant injuries which have distressed her no end plus cost her dearly.  Last time I saw her she said the vet was most likely going to amputate next time which of course she was very distressed about.  Much as I have loved my breed for 25 years I really don't want to go through all that.  Maybe if I lived in a city and only every exercised in well groomed parks or along sandy beaches things would be different, I am sure I would get used to the sight, once we start seeing decent specimens sporting them ;) but not as I like to live with my dogs now.  I don't think I could every breed a litter and let them go as tailed either as I have always sought similar homes to my own as, obviously :), that is how I feel a spaniel should live.  I doubt the breed will die out.  Many will feel differently to me.

What I have never been able to understand is why other dogs that exercise and play in this sort of ground cover etc dont sustain the same injuries. dallies are an energetic, playful breed, that love to run in woods undergrowth etc, yet they are not docked (i know they are not a gundog breed) and some gundogs are not docked, say for example the long haired weim, they only ever had the end bit docked when they did (or do) and have a tail that is feathered similar to a spaniel, but the shorthaired do,  also the other gundogs that are left tailed, yet go amongst this sort of undergrowth not just as working dogs, but as happy family pets out on a walk. take foxhounds, they go into, over and through all sorts! yes, some can and do damage their sterns, but they are not docked in case they might. Also, thinking of spaniels, isnt it correct that the working lines have a longer dock than the show lines? or have I read that wrong somewhere? And why so many different tail lengths?

Im not anti dock, I just wonder why for some, and not for others? And why some that dont go into undergrowth are docked, such as OE and dobes, or rotties?

I've never owned a dalmation not at all sure they would enjoy pushing through brambles though.  Different breeds of gundogs are used in different ways and have therefore developed a different approach to terrain and they do have different tail actions.  Historically docking was developed to accomodate these differences long before showing, long before the gamekeeper would have cared two hoots what his dog looked like so I think we can be sure he wasn't going to any trouble just for the sake of it.
Yes working spaniels are given a longer dock they would not see the need in carefully making a shorter dog for the cosmetic appeal that show people choose but if show people choose to do that I can't see any problem with it.

IMO to really understand why some breeds are docked and some aren't you need to either own one or speak to people who own them.  Some working breeds that are traditionally docked are done so for a reason, specifically to prevent tail damage that they are prone to.  The reason that other breeds are not docked is because they are not as prone to the same amount of tail damage if any.  This might be because of the type of tail, i.e. Labs have strong thick tails or because the terrain they are worked does not present the same level of danger to the fine tailed dog i.e. English Pointer.  what should be remembered is that dogs bred for certain types of work will exhibit these characteristics whether they are trained to work or not.  Pet Collies still like to herd, pet whippets still like to chase so dogs  bred to hunt will still exhibit these traits.  Of course if you have a docked breed and only walk to the shops and back then it is fair to say this dog will not be in danger of tail damage to the same extent as dogs that enjoy free running through natural habitat.  Having said that some breeds who are traditionally docked but left full-tailed can damage their tails just from knocking them on doors and walls in the house.

I love walking through woods and so does my dog because that is the terrain she was bred to hunt in.  You have to watch this breed in action to appreciate how their urge to hunt supercedes any consideration to the environment they hunt in.  When a sound is heard my dog will dive into hedgerows, movement is fast, furious and constant.  She is an absolute joy to watch but would I have a full-tailed GSP?  I really don't know. I think I would have to consider another breed as IMO not docking this breed is cruel.

Pauline, please can you email me a link to this information. Post such as this break the TOS. If you send me a link, I will add it to your post. Many thanks