branched from:  http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/89845.html

Maria, I think that if you're going to go the route of not vaccinating, then you would be best to socialise as if he were vaccinated. 

I mean - you can't not vaccinate and not socialise until the puppy is 16 wks, or you run the risk of a v undersocialised puppy, because the main socialisation period is said to end between 12-14 wks.  It might be possible to carry him around now, but you'll find that he very quickly gets too big for this!

I think that if you're going to not vaccinate, this is a risk you're going to have to take.  Remember that more dogs are put down each year due to poor/under socialisation than those that die from vaccinosis.

Yes Maria I agree, you`re going to have to socialise him.

Did you find a h/pathic vet yet? I hope so :) Whereabouts do you live, maybe someone knows of a good one in your area?

You know you do have options, you can have him titred now, ask for results to be done express, should be back few days. You can give single vax, first 1 being parvo only at 10wks, depending on results. Couple wks later distemper & adno.

Not an easy choice at all. Not sure this thread has been any help to you at all?

Hi Christine
No I haven't found a homeopathic vet in my area - I live in Cheshire.  There is one in Lymm but it is a combined practice and the hoemopathic vet visits once a month (so the vet nurse says) and we have to have the initial puppy jabs before we can get an appointment - which didn't seem quite right to me - so I'll give that one a miss. 

I can't find another near to me on the link which Val kindlly sent in either.  I have written to the homeopathic society and am wainting for a list of practicing vets from them!

So would titre now still be useful, I thought he may still have protection from his Mum? 

I think I'd prefer to go down that route, get him titre asap to find out what's going on in there!

I notice you feed raw Christine, which is what I am doing now with my little chap, so hopefully it will go some way in keeping him healthy!
He loves it!!

Maria

 

There is this one in Oswestry which I think is kind of next door to Cheshire :)  As you see from their site though they still recommend vaccination.  I think this may be the case with homeopathic vets generally as, of course, they are still governed by the British Veterinary Association and should therefore be obliged to adhere to their policy on this, however they do seem willing to flog you homeopathic stuff that is supposed to be helpfull in warding off any problems with vaccination :)

The one you`ve recommended don`t do h/pathy Isabel but a nice gesture :)

While vets are governed by bva, their guidlines/policy to vets are *to follow manufacturers recommendations*. And as you know, their is no law stating vaccination as compulsary :)

Woops, apologies Isabel, read the link better & see they do have a h/pathic vet :blush:

>Vets

>Barbara A Jones BVMS, MRCVS VetMFHom - qualified from Glasgow Veterinary School in 1979 and is also one of the few vets qualified in Veterinary homoeopathy.

Not sure why you think they don't do homoeopathy Christine.
I don't think what you are saying contradicts what I said regarding the BVA policy but I would add the policy also states "responsible vets promote vaccination and responsible owners vaccinate their pets"
Of couse there is no law stating you have to vaccinate just guidance from the profession but of course you do not have to register with an alternative vet to decline vaccination either.

>>Discussion with owners to take their views into account so that an informed decision can be made in the light of current knowledge. At the end of the day the decision has to be yours - there is not one correct answer that fits every individual case. <<<

The above is also what they say :)

already apologosed in previous post(you must have missed it), went thru the link to fast & missed it :rolleyes: :)

Hi Isabel
Thanks for this link, I've taken a look and it seems to be quite open about vaccines and nosodes, the practice is about 50 miles away though, but if I can't find one nearer I'll be contacting them!    got to go there is a puppy eating my ankle!!!
Maria

Yes I thought they took a balanced view on the vaccination issue :)

Ok l`m trying to look around on the net to see what I can find for you M :) Maybe some other members know of any h/pathic vets in Cheshire area?
Maybe give the society a ring M, hurry them up?

Other breeders could help here, what age do you vax/recommend pups at please, the 1st vax?

From around 8wks pups maternal immunity is decreasing, its reckoned to be gone at anything from 12-16wks(for parvo, not sure about distemper) age so you have a little time to make a decision M. Yes a titre would be useful :) but its only going to give you a little time before you have to decide! Because his maternal immunity will wane. And what you want is for when he`s exposed to any disease as he will be when he starts going out, is his own system will build up a natural immunity to disease.

Yes I do feed raw & I do believe its the best way ;) but have you read my post on how I prepared for my litter?

Hi Christine
I've phoned the homeopathic society and it's just answerphone!!!  I'll keep trying.

Thanks for the info on immunity etc - I'm really nervous about doing the wrong thing V not doing anything!!!!!

I just couldn't stand the thought of putting another dog through what Spangler suffered. 

I have read your post on how you prepare for a litter, I'm really impressed, where do you get the time?
Goats too - some of us just have to get our goats milk from the supermarket!!!

Thanks for your advice Christine !
Maria

 

Heres a couple links with h/p vets.

http://www.naturalpetcare.co.uk/holisticvets.htm
http://www.natural-animal-health.co.uk/findvet.htm
one below is from bahvs with addresses & phone no`s.
http://www.bahvs.com/vetmfhom.htm

thanks for the links - I've contacted them for a list of vets in my area (did I say list)??
Maria 

*>>>No but you would need to see that happen in a trial to have the evidence as oppose to hearsay for instance.  If it does happen the trials can also tell you the probability of it happening.<<<

If an animal gets a disease after being vaxed for that disease then the vaccine was ineffective ie: lack of efficacy. Thats a fact, its failed.

As to the rest of your post maybe you should suggest to the vaccine manufacturers your ideas on how to determine duration of immunity because thats not how they determine it at the moment, nor how they establish waning maternal antibodies :)

As I said in the quote the trials tell you the probability.  It is the overall efficacy that they will be looking at.  If any individual had failed to achieve immunity at least they will be protected by the herd......providing compliance continues as well as it has ;)
I am sure the manufacturers do not need further information from me on conducting these trials :)

No, they need more than probabilities.

I also think your taking out of context what thelink you put up is saying, I`m looking it up now & will explain more when I find it.

In the mean time another link.

http://www.isrvma.org/article/59_3_1.htm

>No, they need more than probabilities.

Sorry I don't undestand that.  Are you saying drugs have to have 100% efficacy before we can consider using them despite the level of benefit?

What *quote* are you meaning?

We are talking about titres at the moment, least I am :)

Are you talking about the quote I mentioned further up the thread?   In which case I was referring to the quote you took from me ie

>No but you would need to see that happen in a trial to have the evidence as oppose to hearsay for instance.  If it does happen the trials can also tell you the probability of it happening

That was not about titres that was about the efficacy of the vaccines.
You have posted following my question

>Are you saying drugs have to have 100% efficacy before we can consider using them despite the level of benefit?

Again not about titres.

Any luck finding h/pathic vet yet Maria :)

Nothing yet, but I'm working on it!
Giving it until Monday and then will probably use the one in Oswestry if nothing closer!

So only comparatively well-off people should be allowed dogs? A tad harsh, I think

No JG anything to prevent death and suffering after boosters is a good thing, most people who couldn't afford titre testing probably couldn't afford boostering - and if the drug companies and vets behaved responsibly then they would make it affordable to one and all !

The thing is, the cost of titre-testing will be additional to the cost of any boosters that turn out to be necessary. If you need to watch the pennies (trust me, even 5p can be vital if you've had no income for three months despite having a job) that can be a gamble too many.

>if the drug companies and vets behaved responsibly then they would make it affordable to one and all

People still need to be paid for their time to actually handle the tests, remember. Qualified people tend to earn slightly (only slightly sometimes) more than the minimum wage, plus there's the carriage fee to actually get the sample to the lab. It all adds up.

Gosh, and don't I know about 5p being vital! 
And I do think vets earn more than a little over the minimum wage!

But yes you are quite right that the money has to come from somewhere and I'd suggest the drug manufacturers taking a small cut out of their huge profits!

Yes, vets earn more than the minimum wage, but they also have to pay for everything connected with the practice; rent, rates, insurance, equipment etc, not forgetting the wages of staff!

They are also extremely talented people, selected from our highest achieving school leavers and immersed in training for several years. In short people capable of earning extremely good salaries elsewhere if they chose to.  If you pay peanuts you get monkeys :)  I really don't fancy the prospect of lesser qualified people caring for our animals well being bacause the wages were reduced to average.

>the drug manufacturers taking a small cut out of their huge profits!

As I keep saying, titre testing is sold by commercial laboratories not the drug companies.

I don't begrudge what some vets earn - this is not the point - it is the drug companies that make huge profits.  As you say, titre testingis sold by commercial laboratories not drug companies.  My idea would be to get the drug companies to combine it with the vaccine pack.  it's not rocket science after all! Virbac did say to me that it was possible!

The drug companies also have enormous research costs.  If the returns were not good I doubt we would ever benefit from any further medical advancements :)

>My idea would be to get the drug companies to combine it with the vaccine pack.

No thank you :)

If the returns were not good I doubt we would ever benefit from any further medical advancements

Not always for the better !

I think, having had the pleasure of a great deal of travel over the years, often to areas of the world far less advantaged than us in terms of health care I don't really have any doubts of the enormous benefits science has brought us.

Well I certainly believe the manu`s should shoulder some of the costs, after all they are advocating a product that isn`t necessarily needed

I can't see that.  They make it quite clear that the assured cover is a minimum one so by implication some animals will still have sufficient cover for longer but the level of harm that is likely to occur by simply boostering after that period is highly debatable as is the use of titre testing so if people are not willing to accept the best recommendations and wish to test for reasons of their own it is entirely up to them to bear the cost.  I certainly don't want to see it lead to an increase in vaccination cost generally.  This may force a drop in compliance which would have a detrimental effect for the pets of those unable or unwilling to vaccinate too.

so if people are not willing to accept the best recommendations and wish to test for reasons of their own it is entirely up to them to bear the cost

I definitely bore the cost Isabel, because I didn't titre and went along with the 'best recommendations'  so boostered, and my dog died because I over vaccinated!

>>As I keep saying, titre testing is sold by commercial laboratories not the drug companies. <<

And also the veterinary teaching universities those extremely talented vets are taught in ;)

Mine were done at Glasgow Veterinary College who told me that my dogs' titre levels were so high that they would never need boosting again.  I listened to the experts! :)

Told me the same & I listened to them too Val :) Its got a great reputation throughout the world :)

Told me my dogs would never need boosting again too, and that wasn't even based on a titre test.  I listened to them too. :-)

That was the ones I meant, I don't know of any others.  I have no doubt their technicians are highly skilled but it is still done on a commercial basis :)

Highly qualified as well as skilled :)

These days blood assaying is all done by machines, Christine, the person setting the parameters in the first place to flag up if the sample shows sufficient immunity would certainly have been qualified but the technicians will just be trained in handling the samples without contamination.

These days blood assaying is all done by machines, Christine, the person setting the parameters in the first place to flag up if the sample shows sufficient immunity would certainly have been qualified but the technicians will just be trained in handling the samples without contamination.

and so are the vaccines Isabel

?

like every business Jeangenie!

Yes, which is why the directors earn more than the office junior!

exactly, it's a pity you feel the need to be so patronising - taking the posts away from the subject !

I thought you were the one saying vets didn't behave responsibly, and earned more than bare minimum! Perhaps sticking to condemning the commercial labs and the drug companies would have been more reasonable.

nope you were the one that said that vets earn just above the minimum wage - I just corrected you JG

No, if you read my post I said 'qualified people' - that includes lab technicians who actually run these tests, and who aren't on enormous salaries.

Didn't you bring the money angle into it?
JG is quite correct and if the business is not profitable the junior does not even have a job!