the other day while on a walk with my dogs, i met a couple with a large brindle mastif type dog. they called to me to keep away while they took there dog past as it was aggresive.
i watched as the walked past, both holding a lead on the dog, who was muzzeled and snarling.

it isnt the first time i have met this dog. in fact i have seen it a few times. always with 2 peopel holding it.
it never goes off the lead. never has company from another dog. in fact at home it is locked in a pen becasue it would attack peopel if they came into the house.

this is just so common in my area. a lot of yougn lads walking muzzled dogs, these dogs can never be left, never allowed to play with other dogs as it would probably kill it.
so why do these peopel bother having dogs. if they cant be botherd to socilise the dogs.
the dogs eventually end up in rescues, never getting homed becasue the bad ones are plut to sleep. the better ones need one dog homes with no children or animals.

its these peopel that spoil it for the dogs. they ar enot liek it from puppies, they are beaten, tortured made to be this way.

for me having dogs is a privilegde a major commitment. but its hard work, i take the time to socilise.
what is it with part time dog owners?

>they are beaten, tortured made to be this way.

Not necessarily. A combination of simple genetics and lack of correct socialisation and training is enough to cause this. :(

Obviously only reading what you say here, so may not have the situation correctly, but you COULD construe from what you say that actually they're relatively responsible owners - they do make the effort to ensure the dog gets out for exercise and mental stimulation and is controlled, when it would probably be far easier to leave it at home - and rather it is kept securely at home than allowed to cause injury?

Have you had conversations with them about the dog - assume you must have, to know it is locked in a pen at home? Is it possibly a rescue that they're giving the best life they are able?

M.

so why do these peopel bother having dogs. if they cant be botherd to socilise the dogs.
I mostly agree with you, but in a way I can't agree 100%. I am an experienced, responsible dog owner and I spend all of my free time working, socializing and in any way possible interacting with my dogs. We have always had dogs and all of them went to obedience training, puppy classes and Agility (if fast and energetic enough..... my Lab wouldn't dream about stretching her muscle even if I begged her LOL ). And yet, I ended up with a dog that was impossible to socialize. She had to be on the leash every day of her life (unless we took her far in the woods where there were absolutely no dogs or people). She was the one I spent most of my energy on. She went to puppy socialization classes when she was only 3 months old. It all went well and she loved playing with them. When she was 6 months old, we went to obedience training and again she absolutely loved it. She was an extremely energetic dog, so I started doing Agility with her. She went crazy for it and the minute she realized we were on the way to the place (we were practicing twice a week), she started barking with excitement.
It all went well till she turned about 18 months. Then slowly she started being aggressive toward any new dog that entered our group. In the end she started being aggressive with her old friends and it finally got to the point when I couldn't let her come close to any dogs ( male or female) without her going completely mental.
I guess if you had met me at that time, you would have probably be shaking your head, asking yourself how people like me end up with a dog....... you would have thought that i had probably never let her out of our backyard. And that wasn't the case at all!!!! The amount of time, energy and money I spent on her.... in the end it was unbearable and I started taking her to a dog therapist which didn't help at all. I did everything possible and things only got worse. In the end she tried to attack few people and bit 2 of my neighbors. When she nearly went for my cousin's little baby we had no choice. The only choice was to put her to sleep. Man, I have never cried as much in my life and I'm not sure if I ever will again, but that was my vet's final decision. He said I can keep her, but she'd have to be locked up in a kennel for the rest of her life and I know she couldn't do that. She was full of energy and that would have killed her anyway..... she would have been suffering. :(

My point is, that you never know what's behind someone's story........

Yes, it always annoys me people who say, "ooh that dogs not been socialised or it's been badly treated" when you've done everything possible to make it like people and dogs but unfortunately it doesn't.

Like us, I've been socialised a lot with people but don't think much of them but that wasn't my parents fault :d :d

I can't help taking offensive to the great sweeping statements you've made wolfwoman, seemingly without knowing any facts. I've had dogs all my life, they are my life. I take them everyone with me, they go to puppy classes as soon as they've had their jags and have always competed in breed or obedience. One of my current 4 dogs is very dog aggressive and can only be let off lead in empty secure fields and even then is muzzled. He was very well socialised as a puppy, I also own his litter brother, both have had the same training and socialisation but both have very different temprements. Even as a youngster, his first trip to crufts in special junior he was a real handful - snapping at anything that made eye contact. He has been neutered and has spent countless hours at classes and with behaviourists and many months/years just wandering round the outskirts of the park letting him see other dogs at a distance but it doesn't make any difference, he hates other dogs and can never be trusted around them. Please don't assume that an agressive dog is a neglected dog, one who simply lacks socialisation as a puppy - that isn't always the case.

This is where the genetic element comes in, isn't it? I too have litter brothers who've been raised the same (kind! :D) way, yet one has always been on the timid side and isn't keen on other dogs, whereas his brother is much more outgoing and friendly.

There may well also be an element of owner error as well - probably treating them both the same way was a mistake - but that's the problem when you have two pups!

I've just read another thread you've started asking for help with your dog who is growling at other dogs and people?! Have you been beating and torturing the poor little thing??? :D

Chaumsong :d  I must have done the same with my boy who is dog aggressive.  Actually he is because we found out that a dog in our breed was the culprit for a number of males not liking other males.  Our dogs were blamed for some time, until behavourists saw the dog who started it all causing more problems for other male dogs in our breed.  he's unfortunately ruined at least 3 dogs before anyone realised which one was to blame!

People should not always blame the owners or the dogs involved!

i have seen with my own eyes the things these peopel do to there dogs. going round saying how hard there dog is. and breeding the hardest dogs together to make even more harder dogs.

:rolleyes: But why would anyone want a 'hard' dog?

But even the best owners can end up with an untrustworthy dog - it doesn't have to be anything they've done to it. To say that it's down to ill-treatment (especially when you say yourself that one of your own doesn't like people and has snapped at them) is a very sweeping statement.

Some people feel the need for a 'hard' dog for protection I think, which is such a shame, many of these dogs are used by the more 'shady' type of person in our society, or those that have jobs such as debt collection, who need a protective type of dog. Then there are the dog fighters....and those that feel it is 'macho' to have a snarly, unresponsive dog....such sad times we live in.

I can see where the OP is coming from in a way though, if looked at from the point of view of not having knowledge of owning or having had contact with many dogs. The magazines tell us that a well socialised dog will not have problems, look after it correctly, only buy from a responsible breeder that has socialised the puppies well indoors within the home enviroment, go to puppy classes and training classes, and you will not have problems. The unsocialised dog will be agressive, have major issues and this leads one on to think that any dog that has to wear a muzzle, or does not play nice with every other dog has not been well socialised as a puppy.

As some of the other posters have pointed out, this is not always the case. And it must be so heartbreaking when one goes wrong that you have bred, or had from a puppy, knowing you have done, and continue to do, all you can with it.

Surely if these people wanted a "hard, macho" dog then why would they go to all that trouble of muzzling it, controlling it on lead and warning other dog walkers? That doesn't sound like the sort of thing somebody would do if they just wanted a "hard" dog. I'm in exactly the same position as many people here, my dogs are my life and whilst with me they have the most fantastic lives involving agility, flyball and obedience classes. Yet all 3 have some kind of issue. Meg hates other dogs when in enclosed spaces or on lead but is fine on walks luckily. Ellie is aggressive towards dogs and people when on the lead. SHe doesn't like people getting too close and will let people stroke her, but if they put their heads down towards hers she will bark aggressively. Off lead shes lovely. However out of all mine she was socialised the most as i was determined for her to not turn out like meg, yet she is worse! Both of them do not have fantastic breeding and i think this plays the biggest part. Murphy doesn't like other male dogs, but i did not play a part in his socialisation as he is a rescue. However no doubt if you met me walking him you would probably think its all my fault.

Thats a point, why do people, friends, family or strangers, always go up to a dog and shove their faces at the dog? saying hello, stroking, but still shoving their faces inches from their noses!

Someone did that to Carmen last week and Carmen went straight up to her face and barked dead loud at her, shocked me and the person involved!  Luckily they were playing with each by the end of the night, but boy that did worry me :d

as you say these dogs are muzzeled (my eyes thats responsible) but if they want to look hard they wouldent bother doing that at all ;)
how do you know some of these dogs havent been rescued themselves ? 

the fact that i have a dog the way that she is. woudl mean i would be a hippocrit if i was just generalising.

im talkin gbaout the fact that there i was putting as much effort and hard work as possible getting my pupos socilised. then there are these young lads dragging very small pups arund, shouting at them and kicking them.

then you see the pup a few month slater and its in a muzzle and growling at everything. sometimes they dont even have the muzzle on. most of the time when i ask why they have a muzzle. they say its becasue other wise they would bite them.

i knwo many dogs with issues where i walk the dogs. a lot of people walk for dog rescue. so you do meet all sorts. im in no way talkign about these dogs. im on about peopel who get young pups as a status, and drag it round all day while they get drunk and take drugs. then think its funny to terrorise the pup. the pup ending up aggresive or scared.

I see your point but agree with what others have said. My 10 month old puppy is very fearful of other dogs, I am doing everything I can to try and improve the situation dog classes, behaviourist etc.. and whilst she is gaining trust, she doesnt seem interested in 'playing' with other dogs.
So many dogs become fear aggressive because of a bad experience with irresponsible dog owners allowing their dogs to charge and assume all dogs like to play.
At least these people still walk their dog and don't just keep it hidden away as alot of people would do.

On the other hand, I do find it difficult to understand why rescue centres keep aggressive dogs that can NEVER be rehomed because of their problems and as a result spend the last of their days in kennels - I find that really sad not only for the dog but also for all the other dogs that are turned away from rescue centres because they are full.

If only all owners were as responsible as this and kept their aggressive dogs muzzled, we'd all be enjoying doggy walks to the max everyday...in the real world unfortunately, the majority of us have witnessed a dog being aggressive and have shook our heads at its owner

Hi,

I think we all probably make assumptions about other peoples animals when they behave in a certain way.  I try not to now and point out to others I walk with when they are doing it that it's not neccesarily the owners fault, but I know I have done in the past.  My 14 month old Dobe is going through a tough time at the minute because of one bad experience.  Someone (I knew him but she didn't) pushed their way into my flat uninvited in the middle of the night a few weeks ago, really frightening myself and Ciara, I managed to get him out after about half an hour but he carried on banging on my door for another hour and a half by which time I was in a state an Ciara was in a complete frenzy (she barks at the door any way) but she knew I was worried and that was contributing to her worry.  I felt so bad for the poor girl she was so frightened.  Ever since, if someone new has come into my home she has barked and growled at them - she has come around relatively quickly, but she has never been like that before and she's just very worried.  She also more wary of stranger out on walks than she ever was before (although she has always thought people without dogs are to be viewed with suspicion :-)  She has been relaxing over the last week, but it unsettled her so much.  She has had bags of socialisation and has always greeted most people and things generally like they are long lost friends - bless her.  I know she'll get over it with some reassurance but it does show you that no matter how well balanced a dog and how much work you put in one bad experience can ruin it all very quickly.

Poppysmum, with regards to the rescue centres - I do see your point but a friend of mine took on a GSD x from a rescue centre last year - he had been in the centre for 2 years and had been classed as unhomeable as he had had a go at a couople of the centre workers over this period - I don't know what they were doing with him at the time.  My friend went several time to see him and decided she would like to take him and at least see if he could fit into home life.  She lives on her own so it wasn't a risk with kids or anything.  Any way a year on he is a chilled out happy relaxed dog that you couldn't imagine having a go at anyone - he seems to love everyone, although can be a little wary of some men when he first meets them.  He is like a different dog in this different environment.  He was due to be put down.  The people at the rescue centre didn't seem to take into account the fact that he was miserable and depressed and didn't spend time trying to bring out his true personality.  Which was in there he was just very sad! So there is hope for some of them :-)

Karen

oh I totally agree Karen, alot of the dogs that can not be rehomed, can't be because of the risk to the rescue centre if something did go wrong - its great to hear that your friend was able to bring one of the many poor dogs out of his shell and give him the loving home he deserves.
I actually sponsor one of the dogs that can't be rehomed so I am by no means suggesting they are PTS, like your friend was bale to, it would be so much better if they could be offered to experienced homes to really see the change in them.
But then it would be these dogs that were at the park in muzzles and possibly displaying some of the behaviours that other owners would frown upon.

I had the displeasure of one of the 'tough guy' owners the other night, he allowed his staffie to charge across the road off lead in an attempt to get to my 10 month old puppy from behind! I shouted for him to recall his dog and he ignored me!!
I didnt take my chances to see what the staffie planned to do, my oh scooped her up just in time, then the staffie stood at his feet looking like she was gonna tear his leg off - not only did it make me mad that this dog was off the lead in the first place, but I have spent alot of time and money doing my very best to socialise my dog and help her build her trust in dogs, only for one stupid idiot to put her back 10 steps through the sheer panic of having a dog charge at her!! Now if I were to see him in the park with his dog muzzled I would clap my hands! but no, he is not as responsible as some because he wouldn't have looked tough with a staffie on a lead wearing a muzzle would he!
I'm not generalising on that particular breed - but this owner really was your typical 'look at me and my dog, we're dead hard'

Knowing where Wolfwoman lives, im not at all surprised there are a large number of very aggressive dogs around, it is similar here but not quite so bad, but yep, these dogs get paraded about because their owners want a 'hard' dog and want a reputation for having a dangerous animal.

I would question that not all the people wolfwoman is seeing are necessarily this type of person because as someone pointed out, most of these wouldnt bother to muzzle or even exercise their dogs.

Could it be perhaps that they have fallen into the trap of having a badly socialised dog through ignorance, and are trying to cope with it best they can, withotu having access to information that might help them solve the problems, rather than just mask them...??

I dunno, but that said there are a lot of people here i wouldnt even consider approaching to offer help too!

Em

I have had the experience of having to muzzle a dog, not because he was dog aggressive, but people aggressive. He was from a rescue centre and was 4 years old when I got him. Lots of people made assumptions about him and they were all so completely wrong, they decided to judge us without even asking me what was the problem and when they saw us coming, they walked the other way and he was a collie x GSD and didn't look aggressive at all. It took over 3 years of lots of love and affection and getting him socialised around people before I could take the muzzle off him so he could really play with the other dogs without their owners panicking that he was going to attack them.

Do you know the whole story behind this dog?

All I can add to this is that its never too late to train as when he was 8 years old I had to take him training to learn hand signals as he was going to have an operation that would leave him predominantly deaf and he picked it up really quickly.

The area i live in seems to have a lot of dog walkers and we meet people on a daily basis, i have met two dogs which happen to be goldens which is my breed and both are dog aggressive, one is walked with a muzzle and the other isn't as it's not quite as bad, he is more of a grumbler. The muzzled dog was a rescue dog and had come with his problems, the other dog had been attacked which had led to his problems. I know some areas are worse than others but we shouldn't put people into catagories when we don't know a whole lot about them. I respect both owners for keeping the dogs as a lot of people wouldn't. Both dogs were lovely with people, but somewhere a long the line another person is at fault for there behaviour not there owners.