Hi all

Just wondered if i could have some views advice on this, we bought a dalmatian puppy 2 weeks ago on tuesday, since we picked him up he has had constant diahorrea, he has been to the vets 3 times, firstly the vet said that he is very underweight and gave us some probiotic paste and recomended chicken and rice meals, when this didnt make any difference we went back and they took a sample of his poo as they thought it may be a parasite or bacteria picked up from the breeders, we are now waiting the results and he is no better and we had to call the vets again yesterday as we noticed blood in his poo.  we are very concerned as he isnt putting any  weight on at all.  he has been wormed.  We have spoken to the breeder who says that the rest of the litter is ok.  are we within our rights to ask the breeder to pay for the vets bills as we paid for a healthy thriving puppy and this isnt what we have received?  He didnt come with any free insurance, but after pushing them they set up some, too late though as the illness was already logged at the vets and wont be covered.

Thanks

If he was KC reg and you had his papers, you were entitled to 6 weeks free cover, which you should have activated from the kc document by phone call, if they didnt give you a seperate cover note slip. This covers from the date of sale. As to his problems, well if you can prove he was ill from date of sale (which may well invalidate the insurance anyway) they should take the puppy back and refund your money, you can ask for the bill to be met, but they could say that you should have taken out insurance yourself if you wanted it, also state that the puppy was fine before you had it.

So, if you try to have the bill paid, or to return the pup for a refund, and get no joy and still feel unhappy, then contact trading standards who will be able to furthur advise you. A pup may be a bundle of joy, but in law it is property same as a dishwasher, and you have legal rights.

Good luck with the puppy, I hope he gets better oon!
 

the breeder was not registering all of the puppies from the litter only to those new owners who requested it and will not do this until she has sold them all!  i know now that we should not have bought him without first having this, we are going to see what the results say and if it is that the results show something he could have only picked up from the breeder we will see what they say, i am also going to push to have him registered asap.

many thanks

You are doing the best for this puppy, and you are quite rightly having tests done that can rule out any major problems, if its worms them you will know when the tests come back. Worms do cause runs, did you worm him, or did the breeder say he had been wormed? Another thought comes to mind, if you had him vaccinated and wormed on the same day, this can cause megga tummy problems. Even though the vets will do it! Not your fault, dont think Im saying that. :)

thanks, he was wormed on the sunday and vaccinated on the monday so pretty close although its now a week later and no change, we should have seen some improvement now i would have thought, tho i may be wrong.  We are devoted to making him well and to see him thrive, he is a wonderful puppy,beautiful, full of personality, life and energy, just skinny and a bad tummy.

The chemicals can have differing reactions on puppies tummies, poor little lad! It could still be this that is affecting him. This could be yet another adverse reaction to vaccination, was he well before the vet vaccinated him? They should be in the very best of health before vaccination, which is something your vet should have taken into consideration before vaccinating him. Have a look at the 'locked' vaccination thread, see if it could shine a light on your little boys problems. There are some good links provided by the posters, and observations.

he has had the same problem since the morning we picked him up, but perhaps the vaccination would not have helped the situation. thanks for that info i will take a look.

The vet should not have vaccinated him unless he was 100% healthy!  If he doesn't get better really soon do get a second opinion -
you have nothing to lose.
Maria

I think you would be well within your rights to ASK the breeder to pay the vet bills, but if she refuses I'm not sure if there's anything you can legally do.  You would have more legal support if you wanted to return the puppy and get your money back, just like any other "faulty goods" you purchased - would you consider that?  Most people would have bonded with the pup by now and wouldn't consider that option.

Has your vet given you any ABs for your puppy?  This is usually the first course of action, before a poo sample analysis.  You may want to ask your vet why they haven't given any ABs.

Also - you say he has been wormed - how long ago was this, and what wormer was used??  All wormers are not equal - the ones you can buy in a pet shop are not as effective as those you can buy from the vet, and even between the brands you can purchase from a vet, some of them kill a wider variety of worms than others.  I'd suggest you use Drontal +, since I've had a puppy with exactly the same ongoing symptoms, poo sample done, ABs tried - nothing worked.  Then I wormed her with Drontal + and it stopped instantly.  Before this she had been wormed with Panacur.

it would break my heart to return him partly because we have bonded with him so much and also because i would worry that they would just rehome him and not treat him.  He was wormed a week ago today with drontal.  the vets said that there are so many different types of anti biotics used to treat different bacteria and parasites that the quickest and best thing would be to test his poo and then treat with the correct one rather than keep trying different ones, they are concerned that he doesnt lose any more weight.  the only thing that worries us is if the poor start he has obviously had with the breeder will have any impact on his health/growth for the rest of his life?  I have spoken to the breeder today and she says that she will pay the vet fees or have him back. she did also mention about a worm called guardi (dont know if thats right) and said that drontal does not kill this and we should give him a 3 day course of panacur 10%, however the vet says that this is unlikely and just wait for the test results?!

Wait for the test results before you give him anything else. Just to be on the safe side. You will know where to go from there.

I think she means giardia - Google that and see what you think.

My vet gave me a broad-spectrum AB to try first before doing a poo sample.  How long will it take for the poo sample results to come back?

Please don't try and blame the breeder.  If the rest of the litter is OK, it could well be down to the Vet for vaccinating a puppy who wasn't 100% healthy, if only with the stress of changing homes. :(

im not definately saying it is the breeders fault, the puppy came to us very underweight and with very bad diahorrea. we have since having the puppy found that this breeder has lied to us regarding the number in the litter, we think to hide the fact that there were 2 lemon spotted though i dont know why. we feel that if they lied to us about this what else are they keeping from us, we just dont trust them as we know they have lied right to our faces. the vet did take his temperature and said that as it was normal he was ok to have his vaccination? is this not right?

I would just say, wait and see for the results from your vet. That will show if there is a problem they can treat, be that simple worms, or some sort of bug. You sound as if you love this rather lucky little man (lucky as in hes with you) so keep him warm, clean, lots of love and cuddles but i would make sure of absolute cleanliness with hands, where hes had accidents etc, dont let kids touch him till the results are back, and hard as this may be, try not to worry too much. What have your vets advised regarding feeding?

i do try to make sure everything is as clean as possible, his bowls, his toys,our hands and any where he messes also. The vets have said to feed him as much food as he will take to replenish what he is losing through the diahorrea, but i read that over feeding can cause upset so am sticking with the guided amounts by the food bag, he is being fed a low allery, wheat free, additive free dry food called quantum, soaked with water. the vets also said to try boiled egg but i didnt know whether to in case it just upset him more and as the chicken and rice had no effect either or the pro kaolin probiotic paste. hopefully we will know soon and get him sorted out and putting on some weight.

The vets have said to feed him as much food as he will take to replenish what he is losing through the diahorrea,

Can I ask any breeders with a lot of experience of rearing many litters over the years, is this the advice that you would give for a puppy with constant diarrhoea ????

Well,I'm not a breeder but I'd say to feed little but often.  If you feed a huge quantity in one go, it will just overload the system and increase diahorrea.

thats what i said also, as that what iv always read and been advised before to do so did not follow this advice from the vet..it would only make things worse.

Poor little pup, what a rough start to life and poor you.  Hope things improve soon.

Iv had dogs since before I can remember, and if they had an upset tummy, it was starve for 24 hrs, then boiled rice and cooked chicken added gradually, and little and often. never to overload an upset tummy. keeping the fluids up was the main thing. With a puppy, if there was no change after a couple/three days, the vet was asked, and to be honest I would rather pay for stool and blood tests with a young puppy just to see if there is a problem rather than waiting, or trial and error, because they are young and cant fight things off nor last so long without nutrients as an older dog that has already built up its own antibodies. As soon as the results are back you have a good idea what treatment to give, if required. I'd rather spend the money and have egg on my face than risk the puppy becoming ill from something undiagnosed. Im not one to go running to the vet with every little thing, but with a thin anyway puppy, and it having the runs for so long, thats what I would do, which the poster has. Any runs that last longer than a week in a healthy puppy would give me concern too because they can go down so fast. Egg on my face and a large bill, fine to me if the puppy is well ;)

i hope i have done everything i should have as i would never want to cause him any more upset than he has already had, and hope i have not caused him any with my actions.  i sat up with him every night for the first week cause i was so scared he wasnt going to make it through the night.  i would never deny him vet treatment because of the cost and like you say would rather pay and have the peace of mind of his health, my only gripe is that he should have come to us healthy....

You have obviously done exactly what your Vet has told you Chrissydals.  That's the best you can do. :)
Can I ask why you bought the puppy if you thought that he was thin and unhealthy when you collected him?

I am asking for other breeders' opinions because I am trying to ascertain if the advice that I give my new puppy owners should be amended if the advice that your Vet has given you is 'in the light of current knowledge' as they say.  Breeders rearing, say, 2 litters of 8 puppies each year will have more experience in this particular area than someone who rears one puppy every 10 years for example.

When I have travelled, maybe 400 miles each way for what I consider to be the most appropriate stud dog, spent 8 weeks on my hands and knees rearing a litter, carefully chosen their new homes and handed the pups over with 2 bags full of goodies, as well as insurance, Kennel Club registration, pedigrees, handbook covering feeding, training, like you, my concern would be the same for the pup that I kept as for the pups who have left and that would be for the pup's wellbeing and not the Vet's bill, which would be covered by insurance anyway.

In over 20 years I've only had one puppy who had continuing digestive problems, and that IMO was directly due to the Vet advising wrong feeding. 

A quote from the booklet that I give to my new puppy owners says,
"Diarrhoea is quite common in puppies, and can arise from a number of causes, the most usual being diet, change of water, or just stress at having moved to a new home away from his Dam and siblings.  If the pup is happy and lively, try missing one meal and giving only half the usual amount at each feed for the next 48 hours.  If the motion is now quite firm, gradually increase the quantity at each feed, making sure that the faeces stay firm.  Toothpaste consistency is correct for a puppy.  If the motion is not firm, or the pup is lethargic, or there is blood in the faeces, then consult your Vet without delay as diarrhoea is a symptom of a number of diseases."

when we bought him we thought he was small, but the breeder said this was because he came from such a large litter (12) and he would soon catch up and we believed them, he was lively and happy. we had no knowledge of his bad tummy.  We have another same breed dog who at 8 weeks was twice his size, but was from a litter of 5 and in the house reared and individually fed,  rather than as this puppies breeder who bred in outdoor kennels  where we now know the breeder just put in one big bowl of food and let them help themselves, i do not know if this is a normal thing as i have no knowledge of breeding practices.  we just thought that with individual feeding and the right diet he would soon put on some weight.  We had none of the  goodies that you give out.  i dont think that this breeder has the same worries over there puppies as you do. It was a very bad call on our part, but i guess we fell in love with him and wanted him to have a good future with us.. 

Fingers crossed for you! ;)

Well, I've said it before and I'll say it again...sometimes my heart sinks and some Breeders should be locked up!!!:rolleyes:

So sorry to hear about your puppy, praying that he recovers soon and puts on some weight, all the best, Dawn

i agree with that Dawn.  thank you

Did they have all the health checks done on the Dam and Sire?? Out of interest, I wondered about that?? Did they SHOW you any results or just say they were done?? All the best, Dawn X

we were told that they had been baer tested the parents that is, we shall apparantley see the proof when we get his kc registration and copies of his parents kc's too.  he was not baer tested but we took him to baer test centre in chester this week and he is fine, we did this with the agreement from the breeder that if he wasnt we would return him.

>we shall apparantley see the proof when we get his kc registration

No, the KC doesn't hold BAER results, and doesn't put them on registration documents. You need to see copies of the sire and dam's certificates for yourself.

The more I hear(s'cuse the pun...not funny really...just sad) the worse it seems to get!!! Do they belong to a Breed club do you think?? Probably not!! :rolleyes: The more my heart keeps sinkin' :rolleyes:

i doubt it! I know its terrible, its hard having seen this litter i want to take them all on and away from the place,but obviously i cant. they are now 9 weeks old and 10 are still not sold and are being kept in an outdoor kennel block and i doubt getting any attention apart from feeding and cleaning out.  it breaks my heart, thats why we had to have our little one i couldnt leave him there and thats why unless i have to i wont send him back! but i suppose in a way they keep breeding if there are people buying, so we didnt help by handing over more money to them?!

but i suppose in a way they keep breeding if there are people buying, so we didnt help by handing over more money to them?!

Unfortunately, you're right.  That's exactly the way that it is. :(  You had the experience of buying a puppy of the same breed before and so were more experienced than people who hadn't and could see that the whole litter were not a good size for their breed.  The only way to stop this sort of breeding is to stop buying.  For each puppy that's sold, then the poor bitch is subjected to producing another litter! :(   It's very hard to walk away but that's the only way to not support them.  It's buyer beware I'm afraid.

But now you've got him, I still hope that he gets sorted for you. ;)

do i need to see these now if i have had him baer tested normal myself, as he is to be a pet and never bred from?

As he will Chrissydals, a wonderful future and life, if you can just get the tummy sorted. Hes a lucky puppy.

Val, you are so far apart from the breeder that dosnt care, I can hardly see that your puppies would have any bugs that you didnt share lol....can just see you on hands and knees being swarmed over by licky puppies! Yours may have the stress tummy, which will clear its self up. But, when the puppy has had it a week with no improvement, then to my mind its better to have the vet test and eliminate any bugs rather than carry on trying starving and different foods, when it could be so eaisily treated before it gets a problem, as in run down puppy. Which, to be honest, is what you suggest anyway.

Not that I'll ever look at toothpaste in the same light again! :P

Glad I made you smile!  It's just so normal to me but I can see, reading your post, just how funny it is!! :D

My point is that I'm not sure this puppy has ever been starved.  Just had a variety of different food and water, antibiotics and a Vet who is telling the owner to feed as much as possible.

The owner is doing their very best and doing exactly what the Vet has advised, but the pup's not off colour, has no temperature etc.  If it is just a 'normal' upset tummy, then the pup's guts haven't ever had chance to sort themselves out???????

Don't forget to clean your teeth before you go to bed!! ;)

he has never been starved by us as we were led to believe that a puppy so small and fragile would not benefit from being starved, if anything we have been told it is dangerous when so young.  he hasnt had an antibiotics either, the vet wanted to do a sample test first  and get the treatment right, rather than keep trying things that may not work.  we also have not fed him any more than the guide amount for his weight of complete food with no extras. he has also been given a course of probiotics, which i was told should sort out a simple upset tum.  i dont have a great deal of knowledge but would think that 2 weeks of constant diahorrea no weight gain and blood in poo cant be just an upset tum.

Sorry Chrissdals - I'm getting confused with the Goldie pup who is on the 3rd lot of abs. :)

Chrissy, the starving is usually only a short period, say 24 hrs, after which a bland diet is introduced, such as boiled chicken and rice in small quantities, leading to small meals little and often. This is what my vet has always advised regarding upset puppy tum, or older dog for that matter, and will normally clear up a problem. But, with the problems your poor little chap had, and his otherwise poor start to life, investigation is essential, as your vet has advised, to find out whats wrong rather than stabbing in the dark. he will need to be 'fed up' to try and gain some weight and growth, after the problem has been identified, treated, and he becomes well again. Once he is eating food he can tolerate you can up the quantity gradually, but not in 2 or 3 feeds but smaller ones little and often, so as not to overload his tummy all in one go. As he gets older, the quantity and frequency can be changed to fit his appitite and growth. This is not to blame you, but I wonder if going from very little food infrequently fed, to regular meals of good quality may have been more than his little tum could take.

Pleased to hear that there is an improvement, and hope the results come back soon! It will be interesting to see if she lets you see the other puppies if you arrive unanounced.

Good Luck with the little fella! :)

Val, its very difficult to clean ones teeth, and insist on the children doing so, when one is giggling! :)

Since people are becoming more aware of puppy farmers (though not nearly enough yet!) some of the farmers are selling their pups through unscrupulous breeders. Their bitch may only have a litter of 8 but they register 12 pups with the KC and share the profit. I'm not saying this is the case with your puppy but if the number of pups has changed or some look a little small, like much younger, than the other pups alarm bells would be going off for me.

I hope the tests come back with an answer and a solution for your little one soon. I'm sure he'll grow into a proper piggy Dalmation :-D

no the litter were all the same size, just think they tried to hide the fact that there were 2 lemon spotted pups as these are not seen as very desirable in the breed.

Chrissy - seeing as he had a bad start in life, you might want to focus particularly on socialisation now - have you enrolled in a good puppy class in your area?

he has his 2nd vavccination on 5th of june and will be socialised at puppy classes from then as was our other dog.  He enjoys playing with and teasing our other dog already.

Lemon-spotted pups are KC registerable, though - there are some in most issues of the Breed Record Supplement. No need to hide them, any more than hiding other mismarks such as patches.

thats what we thought but why else hide them and lie about the number in the litter.  our other dal henry has a patch over his eye and he is beautiful (well to us anyway)....

Chrissy, I know this would be a huge step to take, and not something entered into lightly, but if these pups are all still there, and not being looked after, and yours could possibly be used as an example, a call to the RSPCA rgarding puppy farming and poor conditions may be a step to take? If things are really bad, and they may well be worse than you know because I imagine she would have cleaned up before you went to have a look. She may be hiding other dogs there too. But, only take this step if you feel happy with it, because you may be needed to give evidence.

I hope your little boy is picking up a bit?

he is slowly over the weekend has manged a few more formed poo's! and i have weighed him today and he is upto 4kg, though our vet said this could just been bone growth, but he looks better and is still full of energy, so i hope it will get better from here.

i am going to turn up to see the breeder in the next few days without  calling first, to see the rest of the litter and see what condition they are in and if i still am not happy and worried about the litter i will report them. giving evidence to stop someone who is neglecting their animals would be my pleasure if it stops them!

It's funny how excited dog poo can make you when you have puppy who's been ill. ;-) That's good news Chrissydals. Let's hope your TLC is starting to work.