Those people who think that "regulars" are too quick to attack "new" posters on their enquiries/requests for information about mating/breeding or whelping.

If a name seems familiar to us, we will "search" to see if the poster has posted before - to see if we can get a little more information about him/her.    In many cases, the poster has been on the board - maybe a year ago, maybe 6 months ago, saying that they are new to the breed/breeding etc and asking basic questions - which are answered.

When 6 months or 12 months later down the line, the same poster is back - either purporting to be an experienced breeder, or asking questions similar to those asked the first time - such as "when is the correct day to mate my bitch" when first time round they have been advised to firstly carry out the health tests relevant to the breed - it sets the reg flag flying!

People forget that the search facility brings up all old posts - its not that we have the memories of elephants ;)

Margot

I see what you are saying, and agree with it.
But, would add (to all) that if you feel someones breeding ethics dont correspond with yours, and you dont feel able to give advice because of this, then dont post. If you wish to give advice, to support the pregnant/due to be pregnant bitch, then do but keep it practical not personal. We learn by education, and some may think a health test is simply the vet sayig the bitch is in good health. This is a good place to explain the health tests, and all the ins and outs of breeding, to which the inexperienced will not know, nor know where to go about finding out. If they dont care about health tests, and want to go ahead anyway, then its up to you if you wish to give furthur advice, or simply advise them to seek the support of their vet, or good books. I dont think personal attacks help anyone, certainly not the bitch. There is nothing worse than posts being locked because someone has asked advice to be told they 'should have' had tests, 'should belong to a breed club' 'should know what they are doing'. They wouldnt be asking for advice if they didnt need it, but strongly worded posts will get an equally sharp reply. Which is such a shame because there is a combined wealth of knowledge to be gained from sites like this. To me, a person experienced in breeding has been doing just this for a number of years, birthed many litters and have knowledge of both difficult and easy whelpings, care of natural and difficult mothers, experience of handling stud dogs, and how to rear the slow or difficult puppy. This site is a combination of all that, with people only having bred a couple of litters to those active in breeding and showing.

breeding seems to be the 'spikest' subject on here, yet the opening pages of champdogs encourage anyone breeding to get the advice of their fellow dog breeders. This is just my opinion as an outsider to all this, and i hope rather than shoot me down, you will perhaps take some time to understand my thoughts behind this, as I understand your frustrations and annoyance with people breeding just to line their pockets, with no thought for the good of the bitch, puppies or their future, or the good of the breed. this post is not meant to inflame anyone, i simply cant think of another way of putting it, and Im sorry its so long, be nice! :)

I do understand where you are coming from - but look at it this way.  If we give advice to people who, by their very posts - ignoring advice etc - to me anyway, it is tantamount to giving "approval" to bad breeding practices.  

Recently we've had a poster on, asking for advice - who then states, quite calmly, as if it is the most natural thing in the world - that he is arranging stud activities in a public park, where there are likely to be other dogs running free as well as children playing.   Don't you think, for the sake of others reading the posts, that we did the right thing by stating (very emphatically) this this is bad breeding practice?  The poster in this case was very defensive/aggressive at being told what we thought.   Another might say "oh - hadn't occured to me it was wrong!"

If you type "stud dog" in google, you will find loads and loads of CD posts coming up - and this could be the first thing that someone who has no experience whatsoever might read - so it is important that we counter such irresponsible posts.  

Margot

Totally agree with you Margot. I'm literally having to sit on my hands at the moment to stop myself from making comments on one thread where one such poster has come back. My own first ever litter was an accidental mating that we decided to make the best of (i.e. let the bitch have the pups and do all we could for them and  then find good homes and keep what we couldn't find good enough homes for)  so I simply got all the books I could and spent the 9 weeks reading and reading and preparing so that I'd know what to expect. I almost knew "the Book of the bitch" by heart and therefore there were no huge surprises. I was lucky I found the book as nobody had recommended it to me, here people get reommended it all the time then never seem to bother to read it. :rolleyes:

The advice with something as important as breeding is to gain the required knowledge and to use the experience of breed and veterinary experts before even thinking of going ahead.

Sadly many people don't think they have to lay any foundation, or have any safety net for the lifetime of the pups they produce.

When this is patently obvious from the posts it is very hard to simply only give the advice asked for. 

If it isn't pointed out that this kind of haphazard thoughtless breeding is wrong then others reading the posts will think it OK to go about things in this manner.

Why bother with costly and time consuming Health screening and research?

yes, i understand, as i said, if you educate people then it is up to them to take this advice or not. Im not saying dont give out the relevant info regarding testing etc, as Iv said some simply dont know about all this. Having already got the bitch pregnant, its a bit like a teen pregnancy, they shouldnt be pregnant but how do we deal with the situation now? if you feel, after explaining the tests and their reply, you cant post furthur, then dont, then the more heated posts that could put others off wont occur. if the poster now realises their mistake, and admits they didnt know of the whole proceedure should they be slated for it? We all learn by our mistakes, sometimes we have to put our personal feelings aside when giving advice, be that dogs or anything. if you feel you cant give advice, don't, if you can, do.

I really dont think a mating in a public place, or anywhere insecure, is a good idea, or just putting two dogs together in a secure garden is a good idea either, which is why the poster needs to know that damage or injury can occur. I dont think people realise just how dangerous mating can be, and it is quite right that any advice given should reflect this. Mating may be natural, and happen in the wild, but how do we know how many get injured because of it, we dont, and we are taking a natural proceedure into an un natural enviroment if its viewed from that prespective, dogs/horses/foxes etc that run in the wild have a pack mentality, its not a pet sit by the fireside bitch, who has always been treated like a little lady, being taken to see a similar dog that it may never have seen before, chuck them together in the garden / field and let nature take its course......if they wont take advice given in a cool and calm manner, then there is nothing you can do. I dont see the point in getting in heated posts where everyone starts making comments that help no one. Perhaps in that case, least said soonest mended?

Im certainly not saying support poor breeding practices, I have seen and dealt with puppy farms in my past, and gone home and cried my eyes out over what I have seen, and hugged my dog harder. I dont think its those sort, in the majority of cases though perhaps I could be wrong, who come here for advice. I think they dont give a damn anyway, its the novices who do, and think that going to someone experienced may be able to help and support. Its human nature to snap back if we think we are being attacked, and it wont stop them breeding, just enforce their belief that show people dont want competition for their puppy sales. which I know is wrong, but I have heard this said so often. This is a good place to show that you care. You cant help everyone, its a prickly subject, but having given advice, and your reasons for it, if someone feels the need to challenge stepping away is better, in my opinion, that personal comments that lead to posts being locked.

Again, I appoligise for the length of this :)

I think you've made valid points there calmstorm.  Now I know nothing about dog breeding and don't intend to ever breed but I'm sure it must be extremely annoying when people have the same lack of knowledge and go ahead anyway, blatantly ignoring all good advice or refusing to listen to anything they don't agree with.  Thing is, to let rip at such people in public could well be deterring others with a genuine desire for knowledge from asking their questions in case they get the same treatment.  Also being humiliated in public isn't IMO the means of getting someone to consider changing their ways.

<<if the poster now realises their mistake, and admits they didnt know of the whole proceedure should they be slated for it? We all learn by our mistakes, >>

These are the people that we are happy to help - we all have to start somewhere - BUT -and this is the big but - there are those people who post flaunting their poor breeding practices, and it is these people that we come down on like a ton of bricks :D.

Most of us who breed and who post on here breed fairly infrequently. and the idea behind any breeding is for the good of the breed - and it is this that we are trying to uphold.

I don't think we go out of our way to humiliate people.........they have to have been posting (and ignoring posts) for quite a while before they are growled at.   That is my point - before criticising, please do a SEARCH for posts by the original poster.....sometimes it is quite an eye-opener - when someone has been posting for 18 months, asking questions about breeding, but obviously not taking any of the advice in.

Some fair points. :) However when it's evident that gentle talking is ignorted it's worth trying the 'ton-of-bricks' method, in case that's the only way to get the message home. :)

i can NEVER remeber who posts what, & rarely use the search button on "members" just on topics somtimes.

hello every one
                  i am fairly new to this board and  i have to admit when i first had a problem with my lhasa apso i was a bit scared of posting incase anyone thought i was an idiot but i posted and got a lovely reply to both my posts .
i have social anxiety and get tongue tied talking to people face to face hence why i love this board
i usually read through other posts if i have a problem using the search option and 9 / 10 times i will find the solution .
  i am currently researching how to start showing as i have a lovely new pup ( lhasa apso ) who comes from a long line of champs and her daddy got a third placing at crufts in his class.
  IF i decided to breed i now know about researching bloodlines , the health tests needed and even what can go wrong and  i know what food is good for my dogs and what isnt and i got all this info by reading all the posts.  so i say keep up the good work as you guys have certainly  helped me a lot
sorry its so long

angie

Thank you for your post, Angie - you are exactly the sort of person that we try to help :)

Margot

I would like to ditto what angie has said also as i have always found your information very helpful.
Thanks

i've always found the information on here really helpful too and quite often i do a search and read past messages on popular topics. however, when i have posted specific queries i've always had constructive and helpful advice and i actually find differing opinions very useful in coming to conclusions too because there's rarely a "one size fits all" answer and the chance to do your own thinking by weighing up the pros and cons is a process i find really useful.

if you go back to some of the earlier comments on this topic you'll see that there is a distinct pattern to the sort of questions that result in rather "robust" answers. often it's the same person asking the same question repeatedly (often reappearing to repeat themselves under different but easily recognisable user names) and always refuting the advice they were offered. indeed, the more sensible the advice offered, the more certain it is that they will throw a strop and accuse "everybody" of being nasty to them.

quite why the Going Down The Garden to Eat Worms Brigade return so repeatedly with so many fatuous identical questions i don't know, given that there are plenty of naice fluffy ickle doggy forums available to anyone who wants to join the sort of mutual appreciation society that mainly expresses itself in a combination of text spk and smilies. personally, i want sensible, friendly and down to earth advice and i can honestly say that this forum has never let me down in this respect!

Perhaps they are the sort of people that just like to get a rise, maybe they don't even breed dogs! And, if you know they are doing this, as in different names etc, wouldnt it be best not to rise to them and follow thier lead in heated discussions? I like to use :) and ;) occasionally, together with and :rolleyes: coz it can soften or make humour on otherwise heavy text.

Off to partake in my own advice ;) :)

Can't think WHO you mean Margot??? LOL (Newfie will never forget the T now!) :P :P :P

newfie, how do you get the tung one on here?

well, thanks to Missie...right little know it all if you ask me!!! You do : followed by capital P with no space in between...lol Cheers Hun, :P

shh, calmstorm, come close to the monitor and I'll tell you a secret
if you put the mouse over the face, the characters used will pop-up - but don't tell anyone

LOL..........thanks both!  :P