Hello All,

Ive come for a little advice.

My friend has a 7 month old Minature poodle pup. She has always been worried about the pup because he is so small. He is half the size of what a toy poodle is (Hes a minature though!), and he should be well on the way to be fully grown now.
He has been fed 3 times a day on high quality pup food, but doesnt seem to grow.
Today he had a large fit, eyes rolling, tongue out and while this happened he messed himself.

He is KC reg and when he was bought his litter mates had left already, so it was just him mum and dad left - both parents were normal sized.He was just bought as a pet, so my friend didnt ask about health tests, she has emailed to see now if any where done.

The pup is at the vets for observation, but the vets seems to think he will be fine.

My friend is extrememly worried about the pup, but she wants to know (in the event) if the pup died (not being negative, but this pup is seriously small and weak) what the legal implications are of his breeding if you understand what i mean as im sure i read somewhere about if a dog dies and it is proven to be down to its breeding people can sue or something
Im not quite sure about this, but any advice will be passed on.

Well I can't help feeling it is poor breeding and breeding practices.  I know there are exceptions but owning the dog and bitche always rings alarm bells for me and I think this highlights the point that those seeking a pet have every bit as good a reason to seek carefully bred, healthy litters as those seek something to show.  A responsible breeder could still find themselves with an undersized specimen but a responsible breeder would be totally upfront with any potential home about the increased likelyhood of health problems.  However, depending on what the problems turned out to be it may not be possible to directly attribute it to the breeding.

Well the said friend has emailed the breeder, she is expecting a snotty one back to be honest, blaming her and saying shes to blame blah blah, but my friend adores this pup.

All the vets have done is run blood tests on the pup, which has come back as normal.

Have the vets done a liver shunt test? i would advise this. has epilepsy been ruled out?

As to the breeders implications. If a good breeder, she will be most concerned about this, and will want close contact with the owner as this situation goes on. Some breeds are prone to conditions, this is what the health tests are for on the parents (and sometimes the pups before leaving) but such is genetics, it cannot say for definate that the pup you will buy will not have these problems, simply that the parents dont (or have low scores, etc depending on whats tested for) and by that the breeder is breeding from the most healthy specimens that they can.

A litter can have a small puppy, dosent mean its unhealthy just because its small. They can sometimes catch up to look exactly the same as their siblings at maturity.

I take it the puppy passed its health check with the vet when your friend took it home after purchase? Apart from its size, and the recent events, have there been any health worries? has it eaten well, drank well, played and not caused concern regarding its health? How long have they actually owned it? Due to recent threads regarding vaccination, when was the pup vaccinated? I can understand your friend wanting to know whats wrong with the puppy, and really this one is down to the vet. The breeder cant be held responsible for every ailment a puppy has throughout its life, they cant guarentee it will be healthy and well any more than you can guarentee the health of any child you may have. We are mammels, prone to conditions, illness and disease. I hope they have a good breeder, who will support them through this, and remember the breeder could be upset herself that one of her babies has a possibly serious problem. So, dont be too hard on her to start with. I can't understand why your friend would want to sue? Or why they expect a snotty email in reply?

Hi squaddy,

Very sorry for the poor pup, but this last post of yours I find all the more worrying, that your friend is expecting a snotty reply back, blaming her!

Why on earth would she feel that way, my only conclusion is that this must have been a pop in see pup, take pup, kind of situation, where no relationship has been built up with the breeder and the breeder has no interest in the pup afterwards for her to feel this way, in which case you have probably answered your own questions.

Breeding done for money, no health tests, or conscience.

I hope that the pup will be ok, though may not have a long life. If your friend loves the pup, then the pup has done well and found a great home, I guess that is all that should matter.

There's nothing inherently wrong in owning stud dog and bitch, all three of my dogs just happened to be from litters when the breeder used her own stud dog. I may use my own dog on my bitch if / when I mate her. As long as the pedigrees aren't too close, the health and temperament checks are fine, there's no reason why that should cause a problem. :-)

Hope the OP's friend's puppy recovers. :-(

I'd hoped I'd worded my post carefully enough to acknowledge that :)  Nevertheless I continue to hold the opinion that is the majority of cases it is not a good sign.

I know what you mean Isobel, the ones where they dont really care about tests etc, just breed for the money with the dogs they have. I dont automatically think there is a problem with the dog and bitch being owned by the same person, its what goes on regarding health checks etc that matter, after all there are a lot of top show/working kennels that have their own stud dogs. And just because someone has taken their dog out to stud dosnt mean its better if the health tests etc have not been done. breeding is a huge subject that has so many options and varying opinions, we have our own and providing its for the good of the dog and the breed in general, we keep our beliefs and standards, and quite rightly so.

What does make me wonder is if any tests have been done. After all, if there are things to be tested for i think its usual to be proud of good results, and if someone is informed on their breed they give advice regarding any possible health problems in the breed, the age they may occur, symptoms etc, and quite happily (without being asked) provide copies of the health test results. i dont know what tests are necessary for this breed, but if the OP contacts the KC they should be able to provide those details, or contact a breed rep from the pages on CD.

I certainly hope this little puppy improves, and all goes well.

I have sent you a pm