OK, I'm starting to panic about this open obedience show I idiotically entered. It's actually in 4 weeks but I am away 1 week. My girl will knock things off the sofa, chase after them, pick up them and run to another sofa with them, but I can't get her to do it for me. She either loses interest or just runs off. I have also tried teaching 'Hold' separately but although she will mouth the item she won't grip it, if I let go she just drops it and looks up at me expectantly. I'm trying to start clicker training in case this might help, as if I hold a treat in my hand she completely loses interest in the item. We have tried with a dumbell, a tennis ball Kong shaped like a dumbell, various tuggies, squeaky toys, and tennis balls. I don't care if she sits crooked, mouths the article, drops it at my feet, holds it by the end instead of the middle etc, but I would love her to pick it up and come at least part way back at the show. I can do a few minutes training 3 times a day most days. Help!! :-)

you can teach it in 3 weeks no probs. if you do it a few times aday,when i get to work i will try to go into abit of detail & give you a few pointers. but yes,YOU can do it!

what breed are we talking about brw

Thanks Michelle. She's a Cavalier but is very bright for a spaniel, very keen to please me and quite food motivated. :-)

I will echo what Michelle has said, you can do in the time given.  I will let Michelle start you off in the right direction.  You say you are teaching the clicker, will she do a reliable hand touch yet?

What show have you entered out of interest? Also, if you have entered Pre Beginners you won't need the retreive for that.

ok

have you got a nice dumbell thats the right size for her.
not too heavy
not too big so it rattles about inher mouth
not too small so she bangs her nose when she picks it off the floor.

(ok i dont clicker train ,so im just going to tell you what i do. im sure you can adapt it if you need too. i feel personally,that unless you know the exercise inside out (ie the finer points) you can really miss up a retrieve with a clicker,unless you have experinced help.-jmo)
* firstly tell her what we are doing,i call it treviees*

STAGE ONE. (monday)sit on the floor with a box of titbits & your dumbell. maybe have your lead on. sit  by the SIDE of her, open her mouth,gently with the your finger (on the opposite side to where you are sitting) pop the dumbell in "hold" & straight out & say "leave" titbit
at this stage you arent looking for a actuall hold just getting the dog used to having something in its gob & then lit coming back out again. do it LOADS of times, loads of times today,all thru the day,when you are watching the tele etc.

Stage TWO (tuesday)
repeat stage one a few times.
then sit INFRONT of her. pop the dumbell in her mouth, "hold" & leave it there for a second. then "leave" titbit
build this up until she will hold it for a quite awhile.
keep your hands near her head (i like to stroke there years when they are holding) & whilst she is holding it tell her "what a good hold,brilliant hold" etc lots of emphasis on the word hold,so she learns the word.
if she mouths it just say "no,you hold it", dont go too fast at this stage,or she may start to mouth
by the end of tomorrow she needs to be able to hold it  nicley for  about half a minute!

STAGE 3 (weds)
refresh on stages one & two

then back on the floor,dog besides you again hold the dumbell a inch infrontof her nose & tell her to hold it, she should REACH for it. "oh GOOD hold,what a good girl...leave" titbit
so you are getting a reach,a quick hold then a leave.
now you need to try to get her to reach forward & down, so INCH BY INCH move the dumbell forward & down doing the above, untill its a inch off the floor. if she will do it a inch offof the floor,put it on the floor but keep your hand on it. if she is doing it nicely try putting your foot on it.

*remeber DONT let her hold it too long,keep titbiting & getting your "hold" word in, if shes struggles go back.

will do the rest later...better do some work!

Wow, thanks for that Michelle. OK, just used up a strip of Smacko on her, she is now reaching a little for the dumbell (I'm mostly using the Air Kong tennis ball material dumbell now) but is still relaxing her grip as soon as she's got it in her mouth. Not really sure how to get her to grip the article instead of just grabbing and instantly releasing. Will do more hold and release work tonight while I wait for the next gems! Should I just stick to training with one article or with different ones? She would like to use the tennis ball dumbell as a chew / chase toy like she does her tuggies, should I let her so she knows it's fun, or keep it strictly for these training sessions? The only way I can currently get her to keep hold is to make a game of it and then she grabs it and runs off with it, or walks around throwing it up in the air and pouncing on it!

Sandra, I've entered the Newmarket show - my main interest is Breed, but I couldn't resist when I saw they had obedience too! I'm in Pre-Beginners and Beginners. If anyone else is going I'd love to meet you / beg for help etc etc! :-D

stick to dumbell for now!

but is still relaxing her grip as soon as she's got it in her mouth. Not really sure how to get her to grip the article instead of just grabbing and instantly releasing. Will do more hold and release work tonight

you need to teach the hold very thoroughly,she just dosent understand yet bless her

I know, I bet she'd be quicker learning if I knew what I was doing!!

So should I gently hold it in her mouth so she can't drop it, or just say 'uh uh' or something when she drops it and give it to her again?

And should she be allowed to play with it between training sessions - she's currently staring at it and growling crossly because she can't reach it! :-)

dont let her play with it, keep it for the exercise ,that dosent mean you cant make it really fun & rewarding for her. keen is good!

hold your hand under her chin,stroke her nose gently telling her "hold,thats a b rilliant hold,oh what a good hold."

OK, hand under the chin doesn't seem to work at all. Stroke nose? It's only an inch or two long!! :-D I can get her to sit for a few seconds with my hand behind her head so she can't pull away from the dumbell, but I can tell she's not gripping it at all. Will try again later! :-)

keep trying, she will get it,just stroke the top of her nose. gently but firmly,put a tiny tiny bit of pressure. MEGA praise though.

what you can also do is wave it aROUND QUICKLY HISE IT BEHIND YOUR BACK,MAKE THE DUMBELL A REALLY FABULOUS MYSTERIOUS THING!

Lucy, try sitting her away from you and kneeling down with her between your legs. Sometimes that is easier to tip the head upwards and hold the mouth gently on the dumbell.

I try waving it around and making it into a game, but if she does get excited she just snatches at it more, and if I'm holding it loosely in the hope she might grip it, she'll grab it and run off! I do have a proper string wrapped dumbell, but though I was told it was the right size for a Cavalier, someone at a companion show last week said it was too small for her - you're supposed to be able to put a finger each side of the grip when it's in the dog's mouth or something? She is capable of carrying both the proper dumbell and the Kong one though, so it can't be far off the right size! She's at the top end of the Cavalier size range - some say too big for a bitch!

I'll try the kneeling with her between my legs thing tomorrow. So far she will sometimes relax when I gently hold the back of her head, but only for a second, then she's wriggling to spit it out again, and she isn't gripping it at all (unless about to run off with it!). Obviously I'm not forcing it deeply into her mouth when I hold her head, just trying to keep it in place! :-)

dont let her run away. put her on the lead & do it.

(mish is having palpations!!)

stick with your dumbell.

u dont have to get a finger in on either side i like a snug fit (less room for mouthing & the DB rattling around) all you need to do is make sure she can pick it up without banging her nose on the floor.

you could also if all else fails,pop it in her mouth,put her on the lead & make her walk with it in her mouth.

finally you just need to buckle down & do it. you also just need to be more stubborn about it than she is. honestly,suddenly it will just all click with her. but you must do it lots & lots

To me Dumbells are for "work" & everything else is for play. I do teach my dogs to play tuggy with a tuugy(even the cavaliers)so they learn to hold quite tightly & I never use toys to train formal retrieve

I start with the hold, then the pick up & then the run out to a placed dumbell & then I put it all together

I wouldn't worry about getting her to do a perfect retrieve in three weeks lots of people train their higher class & then work the lower one if their dogs can enter two classes

I really must knuckle down & teach Rjj a "proper"retrieve ;)

We'll be seeing you two at UK Toydog in the obedience next year Lucy :D

you're supposed to be able to put a finger each side of the grip when it's in the dog's mouth or something?

i think thats a horses bit!!!!:rolleyes:  ;)

Well, that's what they said to me!! :-)

Just had another go with a circular rope tuggy as it's a lot narrower than the dumbells, and with her between my legs as Sandra suggested, she will sit for a few seconds with it in her mouth, relaxed and not mouthing at it, but still not gripping. She will also reach for it if I hold it by the side of her head / down near the floor etc, but still doesn't grip. It was interesting that when my OH tried briefly she wouldn't even grab at the dumbell though - a one-woman dog I think!

flynn (my ticket dog) dosent hold things really tightly,he sort of balances them. if thats all thats holding you back move it on abit,dont worry too much

Unfortunately I am not going to Newmarket or I would have met up with you.  You may find the Air Kong is a bit wide for her to hold as she is a little dog, if you can get hold of a proper dumbell with a string middle she might find it easier.

Keep at it with Michelles method, she just needs to learn what 'hold' means.

Stage 4. give her the dumbell to hold (whilst shes siting) & walk around her in a circle,go back stand in front of her(so shes in present pos) take it,titbit dont forget to keep taking & praising, gradually get the circle bigger
when shes happy with this do a REALLY short recall (whilst shes holding the dumbell) run backwards if it helps,try to get her to present it if you can.
remeber your praise /titbit etc as you have been,whenever shes loses confidence just go back & refresh her on the other stages

stage 5.(refresh stage 3) get her into heel,put the dumbell on the floor a stride in front of you, tell her to Hold,& at the same time take a step forward so your foot is touching the dumbbell,then tell her to come.
present it.
if she does this go mad!!!!! thats brilliant LOADS of titbits!!!!!

stage Six, refresh stage four then make the recalls longer & now start mixing this in with stage 5

stage seven........go on throw it!!!!

Have fun at the show. Train what you can and don't worry too much. Ours are really normally quite decently solid now in their retrieve... and at last we made it to our first propper show they just forgot they were decently solid in their retrieve  However they told their doggie palls that we are normally decently solid in our retrieve but seemed to forget it all at the show and they found our show jitters very coinfusing as they weren't quite sure if we'd gone out to play or to train. We still id reasonably well and I think half my retrieve wen't okay so somehow got placed so it wasn't all lost.

We had one go at a companion show last year too and didn't even know they had to do a retrieve so just had a go...my 8 month old at least  brought it back half chewed but still a retrieve of sorts! but my 6 month old gave people their highlight of the day as he just loved that dumbell and ran off into the fields throwing it up on the air and catching it and having a real merry old time ...people found it delightful and ever so so funny! ( very out of character for that pup andmy son who trains this dog was totally devistated )   But never mind it was memorable! At least for a certainty you will do better then that!

Anyone know how this is scored?  Do you loose more marks for correcting something you are not happy with? I'm guessing at beginner level it is better to correct and loose marks then accept something you can do better with is that right? Thanks.

at a show i dont correct. just train better at home. retrieve is SUCH a small bit of the test

& think about how retrieve is marked

points can be lost on the following things

the wait whilst you throw it
the run out
the pick up
the return
the hold
the present
the give up
the finish

so say if you have a fumbled pick up &abit of a mouth...so wot? theres LOADS of things you have done!

thanks..that good to know. When you're beginning and don't know what's what and they do something wrong it's easy to think you may as well give up as you've blown it all when you've just lost a few points. 

Hi Michelle, at our recent companion show she waited, ran out and sniffed at the dumbell, then came back, so I got her to sit and then finish. The judge in one class then decided (without consulting me) that she would stop marking and treat her as 'not for competition'. The judge in the other class took off 5 marks, and we got 5th place!!

Would we still get marks at an open show on all the things she did right, even if she didn't actually pick the article up, which is after the whole point of the exercise! Retrieve is 25 points so if I lose all those points it would be pretty major!

As an Obedience judge I would & do give points for each part of the exercise even if the dog doesn't do every part(this includes scent BTW)The advise/explanation notes are quite detailed regarding what each exercise consists of & IMHO I give points for each part that the dog completes.

I would get her play retrieving with a toy separately from formal retrieve training. It can be done & Cavaliers being spaniels should be "natural"retrievers you just have to get the idea into her head that retrieving is fun & enjoyable. I know Lou loves playing retrieve & like a game of tuggy. Even JD likes to"kill"& bring a squeaky fur mouse to hand-LOL have to get him doing some sort of formal retrieve by next years UK Toydog.

Roy Hunter used to use a "magic" mouse, this was a fur fabric play mouse(a very large one BTW)filled with herbs or similar that dogs like with a long string tail. He used to sell them complete with a brown paper bag & the instructions were to rustle the bag loudly & talk silly like saying "Hm what's in here ooh what have I got Hm no it's mine you're not looking"to get the dog interested & then slowly pull the mouse by the tail out of the bag a bit at a time & if the dog looks interested keep saying"what have I got look what I have got"or similar until the mouse is fully visible & then shake the mouse by the tail just out of reach of the dog. In a word it is teasing(but in a nice way) & if she's anything like my Cavaliers she'll be a nosey little s*d & it could get her interested I used to play huggy with the mouse & let the dog win from time to time

under me youd probley lose about 10 (out of 15) for not bringing it back at all

Well, for the first time tonight she actually held the dumbell in her mouth twice for about a second without me holding it as well - real progress at last!! :-) I guess I now only reward her for holding onto it like that, not just grabbing and releasing?

OK, update - I've been away for 4 days, and today am going away for another week. But we've been making progress and she can now hold her dumbell for 25 seconds!! She doesn't look terribly comfortable with either tennis ball dumbell or 'proper' dumbell - I have ordered the next size up but it might be too heavy. She is perfectly capable of running around with much bigger things in her mouth, so I suspect she's just trying it on. When I come back we'll have a quick refresh and start working on picking it up from the ground etc. I think she might come in season soon though - just in time to miss the show I daresay! Still, it'll come in handy if we enter anything else! :-)

good girl. kreep at it

Back from the next holiday, and she can still hold her dumbell for 25 seconds, but if I call her to come, even from only half a step away, she drops it. People at today's companion show said I should be tapping the sides of it and pulling gently at it without giving the 'give' command, is that right? They also suggested buying some sort of dumbell for rabbits with a much narrower middle section, so I'm off to Jollyes again tomorrow!

She did the best she could again today, she waited and ran out and sniffed at it, had temporary madness of running out of the ring for the first time ever (think she was after my bumbag on the chair!) and then held the dumbell, gave it up, and finished. We are drawn 6th in Beginners, so I will have a go, do the breed and give her a rest, then go back and do the Pre-Beginners. :-)

Hi Lucy,  Glad you enjoyed your day.

You can tap the sides and pull gently, it might help.  Make sure you only use one hand to pull.  Both hands should mean give.

Try breaking up the training into sections.  On bringing it back to you, sit her by your side, pop the dumbell into her mouth and stand infront of her, just half a step away to start with and call her into you like a recall.  Don't rush it, just build up the distance gradually.  Don't worry about a finish, if she brings it to you reward her like mad.

Thanks Sandrah,

I've been tapping the sides and she will sometimes keep hold, so I'll move onto pulling gently once the tapping is more solid. She will now stand up and move one step towards me, but only if I keep a hand gently under her chin, not pushing her mouth shut, just supporting it. The people yesterday reckoned the mid-section of her dumbell is too thick (wish they'd make their minds up, it's now too small and too thick apparently!!) and have recommended some sort of mini-dumbell for rabbits (to chew on presumably!) so I will try to get one, but it won't be until Friday which doesn't give us much time to practice. Still, if the judge lets her do the wait and run out, then the hold, present & finish, that would be good practice.

Lucy