Move over HG I was here first!
I have never had any of my children bullied, thank heavens, but I do see it go on in schools :(

Unless I have read this thread all wrong I didn't think the discussion was about whether or not bullying went on, of course it does, but rather the possible ways of tackling it without conforming to the bullies opinion of the child and more latterly how to differentiate between a serious bullying problem and that of harmless teasing or even, and I'm throwing this bit in :) mild bullying that children should be learning to cope with on their own initiative.
I think some very good definitions of real bullying have been given, by Cheryl certainly if I recall, where the teasing is the only interaction between the children as opposed to that given by their friends who also provide good interactions.  Even this sort of teasing can be annoying which is why all children should be given the confidence and skills to cope with it because it will certainly still be there in their lives long after their parents are not.

Unless I have read this thread all wrong I didn't think the discussion was about whether or not bullying went on, of course it does, but rather the possible ways of tackling it without conforming to the bullies opinion of the child

Yes I thought the thread was about illegal immigrants :rolleyes:

Well, yes :D
The latter subject then :)

Cheers kiddo ;)

I don't know what a Larikin is :rolleyes: but you'd be very welcome in my humble (dead flash actually :D ) abode and you could bring/wear/carry/whatever your Larikin with you  :P :P :P

>larrikin n. Australian. A person given to comical or outlandish behavior.< :D

Aaaaah, it's the "what's that they're saying then" thread coming back to bite me on the bum :D  I believe someone's been trying to alert you to masking the brew - with questionable success ;)

    ROFLOL

:rolleyes: that 'Yampy' one!! milk & 2 sugars please! :D

Teasing in the home or with friends is not exactly the same thing. this is with people who like or love you. This is with people you are confident with. This is where it is safe to tease back, as we all do. This is family and friends playing together. Would you continue it though, if one party was being upset by it?  The child who is teased by those that hate them, well thats a different matter. the words are vindictive, demoralising, cause fear, and make the child feel they are 'low down'. No matter how confident the child is, when continuly subjected to this, no matter how much you praise them at home, tell them to rise above it, they will will become depressed. The more you tell them to just take it, ignore it, not be so sensitive about it, the less they will tell you. They will feel worthless. They will hate themselves. The parent who reinforces this by also teasing them about whatever the bully is teasing them about will only compound this. This is not charactor building, this is abuse. The child that has to face walking past those that throw awful comments and spend the day, every day, with them and facing this sort of behaviour will become ill. They can become isolated because their friends will back off, not wanting to be subjected to that sort of bullying themselves. This makes the child feel even worse. Bullies rarely turn away from their target till they have had a result, and will spend weeks or months at their 'game'. They don't just 'give in'. Unless adults take it as being serious, as do the various organisations that help with bullying, then the only one to lose out will be the targeted child. And, unless you have had the child that has suffered this, had them crying in your arms, telling you how awful they feel, seeing them change from confident and happy to miserable and withdrawn, then you really have no idea what it feels like. Very often it can be the over confident child, the one that feels they are better than anyone else, that can be the bully, feeling they are 'above everyone else'. Not just the low intelegent hard lout. Some parents simply do not accept that their wonderful child could possibly be a bully, after all, they are 'only teasing', the target 'should not be so over sensitive....' Many times this will carry on to violence, the words replaced by punches, being spit on, clothes ripped, their possesions stolen, books trashed, are they just supposed to 'rise above' this too? because this is where this sort of behaviour can lead too. The worst is where the child kills themselves. All because of unharmful teasing.........

Excellent post, Calmstorm, I agree with everything you say :) :)

I know of one young lad who  is let's say not "quite all there" - had friends to start with but gradually his friends joined the bullies.
He was recently shoved head first into a puddle and his head pushed into it, but the mother of the bully said "oh it's just horseplay!" The mother is a school governor.

Horseplay is when everyone is enjoying it - it may be rough but it is equal, all get a chance to "get the other one back" for a giggle and all may get muddy (in this example, say) But when it's one who is muddy, one who looks foolish, one who can't breathe in the water, that is nasty and I don't believe for one moment that children can all fight against this kind of problem. Children who suffer this all the time will commit suicide and have done.

It's often totally impossible for them to cope or to rise above it...

Lindsay
x

Nowhere have I commented on "teasing" - only on "bullying"   

That you feel in a position to make an assumption about myself or family life from less than a handful of posts on this topic  -  well, go for it - you must be very astute  :rolleyes:  

I think it would be fair to say that I have a sense of humour but also compassion and an open mind - the latter something which I frequently find lacking in some (thankfully few) others.

But hey, we all have our cross to bear :)

I married a "ginga" and he's gorgeous   I've never stopped teasing him about it though and now he doesn't have much of it left I tease him about that too! :D

>I've never stopped teasing him about it though and now he doesn't have much of it left I tease him about that too!

I'm being increasingly led to believe that what you're doing is wicked, cruel bullying and you should be ashamed of yourself! :rolleyes:

I am, JG, I am :)

Oh, cheryl, you hit it right on the head when you say about bullies going in groups, and being taken along by peer presure, and being afraid of being bullied by those in the group. this is so spot on. your posts show you have hands on knowledge of this problem, you are dealing with it now, as i am with mine, and you see all that happens in school. Everything you say in your posts are so very true. good luck to you, I hope all goes well for you and yours. :)

I can see there is a division in this thread on what people consider teasing and bullying. I have always "pulled the leg" of my children and it is true it's not what you say necessarily but how you say it.  In my son's football team there is a boy with ginger hair and all the boys call him Ginge, this reference is not with mallice neither are they teasing and all the boys are friends and a cohesive team.  If the lad was called Ginge in an attempt to segregate and isolate then there would be a problem and it could be said that the boy is being bullied.  IMO it's not q child's hair colour that would cause the bullying, it could be because a child is fat, dyslexic, black or any feature that another child/adult can sense that the "owner" is sensitive about.  So I agree with JG to the extent that if you can build a child's confidence so that they don't react to teasing the bully will have no criteria to work with.  Bullies only pursue those who react.  On the other hand not everyone is aware that their child has an achilles heel and not everyone is aware when their child is being bullied.  Once a child feels persecuted they become a victim and if this is not noticed and addressed it will escalate and be a real problem. 

A friend's daughter who was being teased about being fat by just one boy started self-harming.  It wasn't until my friend saw her snipping her arms with scissors that the problem came to light.

Thank heavens that there are a few people who can see that being called "Ginger" is only offensive if it's allowed to be! When it isn't even a fact (dragging the discussion back to the specific case ;)) it's even sillier for an adult to allow a perceived slight to escalate in such an extreme way.

Why not drag it back to the topic of the thread - illegal immigrants?  A bit radical I know and possibly less entertaining for some but saves all that dodging under the TOS radar :)

What do you mean dodging under the TOS radar? Why would you want to say something that the TOS would not allow?

Because some people are making inappropriate personal remarks and underhand snipes - nothing new there of course :rolleyes: - best return to topic methinks.

Again I can't see it.  Yes it would be good to stay on topic :)

Right, now where were we....?

:D On you go.

Yeah, you take it from here :D :D :D  Start off with the ginger immigrant ....... maybe not :D

Oh No.  Not ginger immigrants!  Are they all coming here for therapy???? :rolleyes: :D

Carefull, my hubbie was born in Canada :D  I give him therapy but not the sort I can talk about here ;)  Let's just say he's a peace with his being :)

:D

:D :D

Subjective - depends which end of the barrel you're on ;)

>Why not drag it back to the topic of the thread - illegal immigrants?

Good idea. I just heard on the news that 5 illegal immigrants have been arrested. They all had jobs - cleaning the offices of the Immigration Service! :D :D

It would be laughable if it wasn't so serious!

:D That is funny :D

It is a farce :rolleyes:

Good idea. I just heard on the news that 5 illegal immigrants have been arrested. They all had jobs - cleaning the offices of the Immigration Service! :-D :-D

Of course they would not be employed directly by the Immigration Service but by a private company contracted by the HO(Civil Service cleaning was put out to private tender in 1987 under Maggie Thatcher BTW)

A Home Office spokesman said they were arrested at the start of their first day after standard employment checks.

Those detained were working for a firm contracted to clean the Immigration and Nationality Directorate's Becket House in central London.

Home Secretary John Reid has come under fire after saying he has no idea how many illegal immigrants are in the UK.

The Home Office said: "These individuals were the employees of a firm contracted to provide cleaning services.

"It is policy that all employees and contracted employees working in Immigration and Nationality Directorate buildings have security and employment checks carried out, which include checks on their immigration status.

"Of course we will investigate further and appropriate action will be taken as necessary."

There is so much I have taken for granted.  I didn't realise until yesterday that anyone can legally get a NI number just by applying for work.  I'm still not sure how this happens.  I assumed that because children automatically get their NI numbers just before their 16th birthdays that the number was generated by a registered birth system of some kind i.e if not a national and registered here then passports,  birth certificates and visas etc checked.

I don't consider myself wise but lucky that I can see potential problems developing.  Every situation has to be judged and action taken as seen fit.  I haven't always seen problems developing and I have made mistakes.  We do have to acknowledge that bullying does take place verbally as well as physically but we also have to acknowledge that children need to learn to take some knocks as they grow up or else how will they deal with these situations as adults?  When my 9 yr old daughter told her relief teacher that it was her birthday the teacher said "how old are you, 3?"  Totally uncalled for and unprofessional.  I could have marched up to the teacher and told her what oh! something that I am no stranger to instead I explained to my daughter that although the woman was a teacher that didn't necessarily make her a nice person and left it at that.  In retrospect I feel I should have actually gone in and given the teacher what oh! (verbally of course)

The difficult part is spotting when someone is being bullied.  Not all bullied people know they are being bullied either.

You sound like an excellent mother who's chosen to teach her children to be confident survivors, not helpless victims.

yes she has, and I applaud her! But, she has stepped in and helped her kids, and supported them, making the specs and eye patches something special, not just letting them get on with whatever specs or patches were handed out. When someone teased them, she made sure they had an answer. Now things are becoming a little more stronger with the bullying she is seeking a meeting with the school to help rectify this. This is not simply telling the child to 'get on with it' but teaching them how to handle it, making them feel as special as they should be, then stepping when needed. Accepting that teasing happens, but seeing a bully situation when it arises. Exactly my point.

And my point is that she encouraged them to feel that their difference made them special, not that they had to hide it away in shame.

Exactly, just as the mum who coloured her daughters hair made her feel special, by changing her appearance. Giving her confidence. Adults do it, and some wont be seen without makeup, or a pantygirdle, never mind plastic surgery, whats the difference? Or are they hiding away in shame also? Pride in appearance, improving on what we have is not bad? This girl was being traumatised by the colour of her hair. The bullies may have won, but she is not bullied now, or worried about school. this shows to me its worked, and as she gets older she will appreciate what her mum has done, and maybe at a later date she may, with the knowledge of an adult, accept or dye her hair for life. her mother cared enough to help her over a dificult situation, and without knowing her as the poster does, you cant really blame her for trying. Disagree maybe, but not critise.

The mum who coloured her daughter's hair reinforced that what the 'bully' said was true - which even if it was is nothing to be ashamed of! :rolleyes:

>This girl was being traumatised by the colour of her hair.

No, this girl was being bothered by the colour her hair wasn't! That's the point - she's been allowed to colour her brown hair brown! She's been encouraged to have a false image of herself. If someone had made a comment about her eyes being blue when they're brown, what should her mum have done? Got her coloured contact lenses to turn her eyes from brown to brown? To encourage her belief that normal and natural is bad will do her no good.

>Adults do it, and some wont be seen without makeup, or a panty-girdle

Yes, and I worry about their self-esteem too.

I'm afraid I think that is a very unrealistic view. Yes, life is tough, but you wouldn't say "Life is tough" if a white child was insulting a black child over his skin - so why is it acceptable to abuse someone about their hair?

The fact is that whilst her mum helps her psychologically by dying her hair, the child has the confidence to cope with his comments.

The English have been called Pommy B*stard for years in Australia! ;)  Protecting children is one thing, equiping them for life is another.  A line needs to be drawn and balance is everything.

External props are temporary.  Life skills are permanent! :D

It's very realistic in my world.  Interesting to read the perception of others. :)

Put another way, the mum is backing the boy by apparently agreeing both that ginger hair is ugly and something to be ashamed of, and also that her daughter is a 'sufferer' of the condition and needs to be 'cured' by dyeing her hair. :( Both (from what you say about the child's natural colour) are lies. How can that help boost her daughter?

The min difficulty here is that your daughter's friend has caused the upset herself! If she'd not shown that it bothered her (and after all, why should it? Ginger hair's beautiful!) then nothing more would have been said!

JG - that is a very uncharitable stance to take. This is a 12 year old child being verbally abused by a 14 year old boy. Not everyone is capable of sticking up for themselves and having that level of confidence. To say she has caused the upset herself is really unfair. She is a lovely, polite, well mannered girl who is being picked on and that is BULLYING.

So why is her mother reinforcing the bullying by agreeing that the boy is right - that's she's ginger (a lie), and that having ginger hair is so terrible that it needs to be disguised? Would she take the girl to have her skin bleached if she was being teased about having darker skin? I certrainly hope not!

Because it "empowers" (and I think you used this phrase!) the girl to deal with it. You can tell her she doesn't have ginger hair a million times, but she won't have it.... and when a child is crying about going to school and very upset it would take a very heard hearted mother to send her in that state. Infact, I would go so far as to say that it is a good thing the daughter can talk to her mum about this rather than suffering in silence.

It's certainly enpowering the bully! :(

As you said "Actually, the modern stance on bullying is to target the friends of the bully to abandon their teasing/verbal nastiness and turn them to the side of the victim."
So what is the girl and her family doing in this respect? If they insist on going down the hair-dye route, why not go properly red (if the school will allow it) so she can say to the boy "Look! Now this is ginger!" and laugh at him?

Its easy to discuss this and make suggestions as an adult with the benefit of adult experience and confidence.