Why is there such an outcry when the head of the -admittedly inept Illegal Immigrants Dept - says that he has no idea of how many illegal immigrants are here?

Does anyone think that the minute that illegal immigrants have arrived here, off the back of the lorries at Thurrock Services, they register at the Department of Illegal Immigrants???   :rolleyes:

Margot

Probably not, but you can bet they have a roof over their heads and a giro cheque :rolleyes:

No - they cannot have a giro cheque because - guess what?   They HAVE TO REGISTER!:rolleyes:

Failed asylum seekers are also illegal immigrants who're still here and still claiming benefits.

Those women released from sex trade establishments last week are more than likely illegal immigrants. The Chinese cocklers are/were too.

Well you can bet they find a way to claim, or get a job. They're not all living on the streets are they?

Illegal drugs and sex trade seem to be one way that they 'earn' a living and end up doing better than the rest of us. 

Thats as may be, but we have no idea what awful backgrounds they have left. they could have been sold and shipped here, or lured here with promises of a better and decent life, only to find themselves trapped with god only knows what threats to make them work in brothels. If they have come here to do this sort of work, it makes you wonder what life they have left behind, what awful circumstances made them make this choice. If men in this country didnt feel the need to visit them, the trade would not be there.

This country must seem like heaven to some, and after all they know when they get here the chances of being shipped out is rare. Try getting into Austrailia, or Canada, and its near impossible and the wait is years, perhaps it would be a good idea if our country were more like them, rather than being the way it is. Where there are loopholes in the law, and they 'know' they can get away with so much and disapearing when in here, I'm not suprised they head over here. The laws need to be much tighter.

I think a lot of the problems are caused by the Lawyers and Solicitors that act for all the 'economic' migrants, i.e they only come here for money and not to avoid persecution etc, and find all ways round the law to let them stay. What about all the Plane hijackers that were allowed to stay instead of being deported?? I don't have a problem with anyone in genuine need, but half the time all they're after is an easy life and years living on handouts from us the taxpayers!! All the best, Dawn

To true newfie! For some this is a land of riches and promise, sadly not for those of us that live and work here! As to the hijackers, its disgusting, and yes I could use other words.......those that come over and commit crime should be deported. but we are far to soft in this country, and a solicitor is to easy to get with legal aid.

>a land of riches and promise, sadly not for those of us that live and work here!

Oh I don't know. How many people do you know who have no money for food, whose children go to school without shoes to wear? We don't know we're born!

As for solicitors and Legal Aid - that's Cherie Bliar's speciality, and don't get me started on that!

Actually, I do know many families that are not as well off even though they work than those that claim but I can't go into detail here because what I would say could be illegal for me to say, using comparisions. But, when the working family has paid their full mort/rent, council tax (full) all fuel bills maybe a car if its necessary, then look at whats left over for food, clothes, kids, etc is makes a sorry state for some, as some could be in a minus situation where as if you can get most of it all paid, as in benefits, including claiming the 'best' trainers for your kid so they dont get bullied (not available for working parents, the kid just gets bulied or parents go into debt to fund them)  who is the lucky ones?

If we have a roof over our heads, food to eat and clothes to wear, we're not truly poor. Maybe not as well-off as many, or even as comfortable as we'd like to be, but we're not in poverty. Those who think they're hard done-by because they haven't got the latest designer wear need a good slap to get their heads into gear!

Actually, a good slap is what they get, from not one but a large group of those with chav mentality if they are not seen to be wearing the 'right' clothes. this is a sad but very true fact of life. How would you deal with your child being knocked about because he/she did not have the right item of clothes? This is not the kid wanting it, but being beaten because of not having it. dont say go to the school if in school, they either wont do anything, or if they do will give a detention. The detentioned kid will soon sort out yours for 'dobbing him in'. Dont bother the Police if assaulted in school, govn policy states that schools sort this type of assault out themselves.

if we have a roof etc we may not be truely poor agreed, but many have the everyday worry of keeping that, and I mean real stress worry of not being able to feed the kids today because the electric bill needs paying, or joey needs a new pair of shoes. There most def are people living like this, and it happens today and everywhere. There are people living on the streets that can't claim anything, yet illegals comeinto this country, get hot food, shelter, later homes etc. They get all the things the hard up working family would wish for, but because they work and pay their taxes they cant.

Home schooling? Move area? There's no law that says your child must go to school, or that you have to live in the same area all your life.

Im sorry, but this sort of thing at schools is the country over, so moving simply because the schools can't or won't control the kids there is not really an option. Home schooling is good, but after all why should that have to be the option, any more than moving? How does the family that work manage home schooling, or those that themselves would not be able to do this? I was simply pointing out that those on benefits will have these items provided, where as those that work and manage dont, even though they may not be able to afford it. if this sort of thing happens in our area, which is not like some, then I really don't know how those in the more chav areas manage.

Not so - it's not been like that at any of the four schools my son went to, and he's only 20, so not totally ancient history! ;) I went to seven schools and there were no bullying problems there either, despite my having a speech impediment which you'd have thought would single me out.

Well, in that case we will have to agree to disagree, because I know of schools like this in Shropshire, Worcestershire (friends son now 18, daughter 13) Cheshire, Liverpool, for a definate fact. this being a period of some years to date. i have also spoken to people that have kids in school in the home counties and south that have had the same situation. So, much as it may not have happened in your area doesnt mean it does not happen. I was at school in the 70's, and although the cloths thing was not a problem, those that had tended to share with those that didnt, there were still some bullying incidents, although no where near as bad as today. Strangely enough, the son I have moved (not from clothes bullying I hasten to add) finds that bullying does not seem to be such a problem, fingers crossed so far, nor violence that is encountered on a daily basis at the old school.

But, the 'right' sort of clothes can and does cause problems in many schools. And on that note, its time to jump on my broomstick and collect the said kids from their respective schools. (Incidentally, my youngest has had some nasty verbal bullying about not having the right shoes, as in make, verbal being as bad as hitting when continual, and he begged me not to tell the school because it would make it worse. So please dont try to tell me it doesnt happen)

No bullying at the 4 schools that my daughter went to, unless you consider name calling bullying?  Even when I was at school, in the dark ages, children wearing specs were called 4 eyes, children with ginger hair were called carrot top, etc.
My daughter left her local peer group having won a scholarchip to the grammar school some miles away, but rejoined the local comp for A-levels.  She was called names for having been to a grammar school for 5 years, but I taught her to deal with it - that's life! :rolleyes:

I didn't have the money for designer clothes for her like her friends wore.  In fact most of her clothes were 2nd hand from car boot sales, but she never worried, and is happy with her Louis Vitton bag & purse these days. :rolleyes:

Yes, I would consider name calling to be bullying - if the child on the receiving end of it is sensitive and upset by it.

A friend of my daughter insists that her mum dyes her hair once a week (she's 12) because a boy at school constantly calls her ginger. She has brown hair, but he has realised that this upsets her and persists in calling her names about it. That is bullying - it upsets her sufficiently to have her in the hairdressers crying and begging to have her hair dyed from ginger!!

Life is tough.  Not everyone is nice.  I considered it to be part of my job as a Mother to teach my daughter coping skills to deal with all eventualities that life may dish out! :D

I wouldn't have a 12 year old daughter at the hairdressers dying her hair! :(  I wouldn't consider that to be helping her at all.  We've all got imperfections and bits that we'd like to change.

Well, just maybe you dont understand the full extent of the damage verbal bullying can cause then, and I hope you never find out because believe me it is every bit as damaging as punching. My hairdresser dyes her sons hair because of his colour and the bullying he was getting. we try to protect our kids and yes there are nasty so*s about. How many adults do you know that are red heads that dye their hair brown or blonde simply because they hate the colour? Why should kids that are being severly teased be any different?

Well, just maybe you dont understand the full extent of the damage verbal bullying can cause then

Maybe better than you know - I worked as a therapist specialising in children!  

It's debilitating if they haven't been taught the skills to cope - mostly because their parents don't cope well .....  But coping is a skill like any other that can be learned, with great success if the benefits of not coping are not greater than the benefits of coping! :D

Well, all I can say is that things change, and i have my info from a highly skilled person who spent most of his life dealing with children. But, aside from that, I have seen the effects bullying has on children, not just physical, and whilst I agree that children have to learn to cope, some simply cannot and thats what causes teenage sucide, yes I do know of 2 kids one 11 one 15 that killed themselves due to bullying, and both schools denied the kids had been bullied BUT the other kids at the school said they knew of it. Also, a lot of kids that run away from home can do this because of bullying at school of a mental nature. I happen to have had quite a lot of experience of dealing with problem kids as well, and yes I do know what problems constant teasing can do. There are a number of adults around today that suffered at the hands of being subjected to consistant teasing, I happen to know some, i expect I know a lot of people form a wide area which gives me my knowledge. years of gained experience.

Most brunnettes and blonds I know are dying their hair red :D

Did mine red a month ago (20p from a car boot sale - cheap skate! ;)) after the free Martin Lewis hair cut!! :D

There is a difference, from what Im told of people born red or ginger, between having the choice of the dyed type of red hair, and being a natural ginger, or red, lots of which started from the playground tormenting regarding red hair.

My brother, husband and son were all ginger (my brother's lost most of his hair and my husband's now grey!), but being ginger hasn't bothered them. My husband got called all the names (he says his response was the then equivalent of 'Whatever' and it stopped) and my son says he was never called names anyway.

Real ginger hair doesn't dye easily anyway!

I am with you on this one JG.

Myself as a red head and Flo being a red head, we have had all the name calling :rolleyes: 

As you say what I did was say 'yes and so what' ? They soon got bored :)

Flo has been the same as have always taught her to stand up to people and never get intimidated :)

I am stuck in the middle here because although I agree that verbal bullying does in fact take place and can be very damaging, I also agree that generally you have to learn to stand and be proud of who you are regardless, so it's best to learn to deal with it if you can. 

All 3 of my kids wore glasses from young ages (son was 2 daughters 3 & 5).  The worst culprits for drawing attention to their glasses being "abnormal" were adults.  It made me mad but I continued to treat my kids glasses as a special feature for them that drew good attention rather than bad. It was a special occasion, for example, when they went to the opticians to choose their new frames and wow they chose some bobby dazzlers On top of wearing glasses 2 of them had to wear patches as well and I made this as fun as I could by allowing them to add their own transfer pictures on each day and buying "special" books for them to read.  Other kids were just interested and one even cried because her mum wouldn't buy her glasses. It wasn't until one on them was about 9 that someone started teasing her and I just told her a little phrase to say which she never did but talking it out and pointing out that people like that have very small minds I think helped put it all in perspective for her.  I used to try and get my daughter to think of why the person might be doing this as in perhaps they have unhappy lives and so they are trying to transfer that unhappiness onto someone else.  It is down to you then whether you allow that to happen or not.  I strongly believe that if you act like a victim you will be a victim. 

A friend of mine has a son who has red hair and she blamed this for every problem, mood, lack of friends and yet when I was a child a local Irish family who were predominantly redheads were the most cheerful, popular children in our street so you can't blame ginger for your problems.

Having said that I have had to meet the Head at jr school for one of mine who was being bullied but it was much more subtle and complex involving a group

>I strongly believe that if you act like a victim you will be a victim. 

That's so very, very true. My granny used to say that if you acted like a doormat people wouldn't even notice when they wiped their feet on you. Nobody respects someone who doesn't respect themselves.

Tell me how someone who has been mentally abused from a young age can possibly respect themselves unless they are given help to overcome this? can you explain to me why young girls who are tormented about being fat at school have eating disorders, some that prove fatal, self harm, etc? Is this not bullying? Or is it their fault, or maybe their parents? or maybe lets blame the media, not the bullies who made her life hell, the ones she should have stood up to? How can every child stand up to consistant presure. Some don't, they are the tragedies. Do you remember the antibully campaign, the 'celebs' that came out and told of how harmful it was to them? I guess the NSPCC, Childline, all the various agencies that help all sort of abused kids are just wasting their time with kids that are called names?

Every child and situation has to be dealt with as it is, there are no cut and dry solutions for any given situation. Some kids will just laugh in the face of the bully, some with quick witt can turn the situation round and make the bully look a fool, some will smack the bully in the face, but some cant take it, and if left to 'get on with it, its part of life' its like smacking the kid in the face, pushing her/him into the wolves. The worse it then gets, the less the child will tell. In turn the child can turn to alcohol or cigs simply to try to be accepted, their behaviour can change to very withdrawn or aggressive, snappy, sullen. grades drop, parents cant understand why the previously well mannered happy child is now going 'off the rails' or why they are now bulimic. Or cutting themselves....or worse. A dark picture, couldnt happen? it does. I know coz in my last job I saw it. Helped to deal with it. But there you go. 

If your kids have a problem, listen. then listen again. talk, keep open minded, no matter what they say or how they say it. Dont minimise name calling, help them to accept some people are rats, help them, guide them, to solutions that may help, but dont leave it at that, check all is well. Victims become survivors not from being left alone but from help and support.

So how (in Chloe's friend's case) does backing the 'bully' do anything other than reinforce the 'victim's self-doubts?

Hi calmstorm,

>Every child and situation has to be dealt with as it is, there are no cut and dry solutions for any given situation

A very sensible and open minded view of a particularly complex and sadly all too common problem :)   There is no more a *one size fits all scenario* in child welfare issues - and IMO this IS a welfare issue - than there is in the many behaviour topics advised on for dogs!   Some children are far more sensitive or easily intimated than others - fact!  No matter how much parents do to instil positive self esteem in their kids some will have those efforts chipped away at by some brat that's a bully, through and through, and determined to keep going. 

If push comes to shove (no pun intended) it's far more appropriate to criticise the parents of the bully than the victim in many cases. 

In any event, not every child admits to their parent(s) that they are having a problem - usually why the bullying takes such a strong hold in the first instance :(  While there have been many positive measures clearly put in place by lots of posters on this thread unfortunately there has been IMO some glaringly dismissive, intolerant and arrogant remarks which I've personally found to be very disturbing

regards, Teri  

It is very difficult to know when a child is bullying or being bullied.  Even though my kids weren't bullied about their glasses one of them was involved with a girl who was unbelievably scheming and manipulative.  She made life for my daughter very difficult and I wasn't aware of what was happening for a few weeks.  I coached her in what to do and eventually my prediction was correct and my daughter was able to overcome and rise above this nasty piece of work.  You have to be aware that this is going on all the time in varying degrees of severity and that children don't tell you about outright.  What tends to happen is that they tell you about other things that are making them unhappy such as the teacher might have made a negative comment (seemingly totally unrelated) or they dont like particular subjects, dinners etc. by probing you start uncovering other niggles and eventually you find the common denominator which could be a bully. 

Bullying is very real and with help it can be overcome but you need to be aware of it, on the lookout for it and have strategies for dealing with it.  Caught early it is easy to deal with but if it is ignored or not picked up then the bully grows stronger and the bullied weaker.  Interestingly a number of bullied people will go on to bully others and those children who bully in groups are often frightened of being bullied by their peers within that group.

Bullying that goes beyond the 'normally accepted realms of teasing' (I've also taught mine that it's not what you say but the way that you say it that really matters!) is certainly serious and needs outside intervention to sort out.  My point was that good parenting includes teaching children to deal with big ears, four eyes, fatty, blonde, carrot top comments as part of their life skills to cope with people for the rest of their years. :)

I remember being chased in the playground by I boy that I didn't like who was trying to play kiss chase!  In my effort to dodge out of his way, I turned and ended up with a fence spike (remember those spear topped metal fences folks - just the right height for a 9 year old?) stuck near my temple!  It could have been very nasty.  These days parents would try to get him excluded from school, insist that the council removed the fence etc, even though it had never happened before.  My parents (and me) just thought it was a childhood accident that taught me to be more careful when I was running! :D

I agree entirely - equating all run-of-the-mill teasing with bullying is unjustified, unfair and creates unnecessary problems. Verbal teasing only becomes bullying if the recipient allows it to. A wise parent will prevent this not by allowing the child to cave in to it but to develop the confidence and self-esteem to ignore it.

Last night, after reading these posts, I checked out some of the bullying sites. It makes very sad and interesting reading regarding those that are bullied by 'teasing and name calling' especially with regard to the reported (and they have a list of these children) who actually kill themselves due to what is regarded here as name calling that they should rise above. I totally agree that the 'target' (rather than victim) should be taught how to deal with this problem, and have full and total support of their parents when doing so, and the poster who has much knowledge of this writes some wonderful posts explaining how she has dealt with the problem, and because of the way she is her children will not suffer long term because she keeps ahead of it. her kids are very lucky to have a mum like her.

However, all circumstances are different, and in many ways its how the school deals with the problem and the sort of kids that go there. The bully needs help and support too, in my opinion, its no good just punishing them, whilst I totally disagree with the 'no blame' policy, the bully certainly needs help not punishment to deal with their own problems, they need to own that their behaviour is wrong and find ways to accept this and deal with it. School days are the foundation steps to life outside in the big wide world, the place we learn to deal and interact with everyone. This is where we make mistakes and learn from them in a more controlled enviroment, and where adult intervention is needed when things get out of hand. How often is the school bully the thug who gets drunk and fights on a saturday night in later life? is an abusive partner, hits his kids? reporting the bully so your own kids are safe, and then the school working with this problem may just help the bully to a more fruitful life.

A very blanket statement JG both about the abilities of a child suffering verbal and mental persecution on a daily basis and about "wise" parenting :(   As someone who has been up close and personal through a particularly traumatic period of misery on this very subject I find these sort of remarks extremely offensive.  We are each entitled to our opinions but frankly some of the dismissive responses about the serious nature of so called "run of the mill teasing" are bordering on ridiculous

There are many "wise parents" unaware of just how cruel children can be and the level of suffering their own child is trying to put up with.  Some of the posts on this thread have virtually said that a well raised child by a wise parent can't be affected by bullies ergo any poor kid that has, not only has been let down by their parents, but is saddled with a couple of fools for life :rolleyes:

   

I think JGs approach makes a lot of sense.  Nobody is saying there are not very sensitive children that parents will always have a job bolstering the confidence of but I do think that should always be the aim rather than allow them to think in any way what the teasers are saying is reasonable criticism of their appearance or whatever.  You can't ban teasing and who would want to :)  Many of us started our relationships with the opposite sex in that sort of manner and I seem to remember it was fun :)

I haven't disagreed that the aim should always be for anyone responsible in raising a child to do their level best to nourish self confidence and self worth :)   However as I've said in both posts I've made, not every child lets on to their parents/guardian/teacher etc that there is a problem.  Some children will go to great lengths to hide the problem from everyone and so the mental and psychological torment can be very deeply ingrained before a responsible adult finds the true cause behind subtle behavioural changes.

My point in the post to which you have replied is that I think the terminology used in some replies is blinkered at best and verging on intolerant in some instances - plain and simple.

Children may hide things but if a parent has done their best to build confidence they will have reduced that likelyhood to a minimum and can do no more.  If a child does tell of taunts though I think it is necessary for the parent to look again at what can be done regarding their confidence which, to me, would not be to acknowledge in anyway that could be interpreted by the child that the taunters are right.
I haven't seen any replies that were blinkered or intolerant so I can't really comment.

"Verbal and mental persecution" - extreme words. Where is the justification for them? Why is supposedly (but not) having ginger hair such a serious matter? By implying that it's a serious taunt is deeply offensive to all the true ginger-haired people who may be made to believe that they're 'faulty'.

I seem to be one of the few people who doesn't think that being ginger is a crime and failing that should be disguised at all costs. :rolleyes: Never mind, I can live with being different - but that's because I was lucky enough to have parents that helped me believe that my genuine impediment was nothing to be ashamed of.

Nowhere in my reply did I isolate "verbal and mental persecution" as referring to children with "ginger hair"   It was a generalisation about how bullying - even that of a non physical kind - can and indeed does seriously affect some children including those (shock, horror) with wise parents :rolleyes:

As your own contributions on this topic seem to generalise about how to prevent "victims" I felt it appropriate to respond in general terms 
 

>the serious nature of so called "run of the mill teasing"

I'm sorry that there are people who equate run-of-the-mill teasing (you must live in a very serious household) with verbal persecution. They are very, very different.

>(you must live in a very serious household)

What a peculiar remark - please elaborate....

Can't we just discuss issues without picking up on any perceived slight?  Just say why you think "run of the mill" has a serious nature and things can move on from there :)

It's not I who needs to move on here Isabel :)  

I'm perfectly open to accept that individual instances of undesired behaviour be treated as just that - individual.

As with everything else in life, what is perceived as a "run of the mill" to someone is not necessarily so to another - particularly to children.

Now perhaps you could extend your invitation to JG to just say why she has come to the conclusion that I live in a very serious household :)

Certainly I'll elaborate - your recent posts give the impression (whether or not that's what you intended I don't know) that jokes and teasing are the same as bullying. I'm sorry, but in all the households I've ever visited the adults and children frequently tease each other and call each other names, and pull faces. Such things can't be classed as 'verbal persecution' or bullying.

If that's not the impression you intended to give then I apologise for my misinterpretation.

Oh for goodness sake! :rolleyes:
Its not just the 'verbal' to use the (now) established example "ginga'. If I were to say it cheerily with a wink its hopefully marked as cheeky banter, If I say it aggressively,snarling with a vicious contorted face..thats frightening and threatening! very different!!!! so lets not concentrate on the 'words' there is a world of variances in human interaction I cannot understand why given that there are so many sweeping 'one-size/situation-fits all' statements being made here today??

As a hopeless and eternal Larikin, I'd be quite happy (and honoured) to Live in Teri's house. :)