>How does making a child, girl or boy, far to ashamed or scared to tell their parents they are pregnant help anyone?

I agree. The point is that they shouldn't GET pregnant in the first place. Being too afraid to tell anyone/having angry parents after is rather likt shutting the door after a bolting horse. I'd like to see a career, fun, marriage BEFORE pregnancy!

>put a 12 yr old in ankle socks and her life will be made a misery

Not at my daughters school - must be worse in some other locations though

>How many can honestly say they didnt have sex before they were the 'legal' age?

Me.

>if your child attends the sort of school where the head couldnt care less if the child attends there or not

then you move your child, or complain about the head to the Local Authority!

I do agree with what you are saying. Its the apathy about teenage pregnancy I can't stand. We have the worst rate for it in Europe and something needs to be done - because all this publicity about 12 year olds getting drunk and having sex is simply setting a bad example and normalising it. Why are we no longer shocked by anything anymore? Because shocking behaviour has become the norm.

Just watched a snippet of LK Today and they had 2 women on who were teenage mums and who now visit schools talking about the subject of teenage pregnancies. They also ask questions which is so important because without asking the source why they are doing what they are doing adults will just keep making their own assumptions.  The underlying problem they say that keeps cropping up is alcohol.  Alcohol seems to lead to unprotected sex.

Thats interesting. So, where are they getting the alcohol from I wonder?!

I had a call one night from youth workers.  We have a leisure park and one of the nightclubs runs a "baby" nightclub for 14 to 17 year olds.  As already mentioned it is supervised by youth workers employed by the Council and alcohol is strictly forbidden.  We allowed 14 year old daughter to go with her friends and she was to be collected at the end.  We got a phone call to say that my daughter was drunk.  I drove down there and made sure I made a very obvious appearance in my sloppy jogging bottoms and baggy top asking the kids where my daughter was by name.  she actually wasn't drunk although she had been drinking (she admitted) her 2 friends however, were in a terrible state, one vomiting over a bowl and the other one out cold on the toilet floor who had to be taken to hospital by ambulance.  Turned out that the off-licence near to my daughter's school had sold them vodka.  The next day I reported the off-licence to Trading Standards who took the call very seriously (apparently) and said that the off licence would be paid a visit.

It seems to be too easy for kids to get alcohol.  It also seems that kids have too much money at a younger age.  My kids are kept quite poor in comparison to their friends.  Nevertheless it didn't stop my daughter being 'given' vodka by her friends.

Chidren should be told by their PARENTS (not the school) that it is WRONG to have sex before marriage, they should be told that it is WRONG to drink alcohol under 18, they should be told that they should respect themselves and behave in an appropriate manner until they are old enough to make the right choices.  Now we all know that young people do not always listen to what their parents tell them, but at least, they are being given the correct guidelines!  I resent paying taxes to support these children who are looking for the 'easy' option to working and saving to buy their own houses by having babies without even being told that they are doing anything WRONG and are even being applauded by some for being so clever!!!  I could go on for ever............

Telling my daughter it was wrong not to drink alcohol made not an iota of difference to her. When a child is hell bent on rebellion they will do the opposite to what you have always told them and advised them.  I have children who have listened and taken on board everything so far and one that has done the opposite.  It's not cut and dried.

My point about sex education in schools was in response to Carrington who said :-

>I think sex education should start at the end of junior school, and continue into secondary school. The children need to know more today than we did

Sex education does start in junior schools and is continued throughout secondary school during PSE lessons.  They certainly know much more than I did. Sex education in my school was during Biology lessons at 14.  I already knew the basics from playground talk.  My mum's contribution was to talk about periods that you have every month and that I wasn't allowed to do handstands anymore :rolleyes: or play out with the boys :rolleyes::rolleyes:

There is more sex education at an early age in UK schools than in other European countries, and yet we still have the highest rates of teenage pregnancy. :rolleyes: The problem lies with the overall ethos that 'they're going to do it so we might as well accept it' rather than teaching them that's it's WRONG, and there will be unpleasant consequences if they're stupid enough to do it anyway. Let's face reality - the only 'safe sex' is no sex. Why do we seem to be raising a generation of slappers when other countries aren't? Let's get back to the belief that being a dirty little scrubber is a Bad Thing to be!

Agreed.  There is far more education these days and far more illegitimate children, so I don't think that's the answer. 

There is no right and wrong anymore - we are supposed to accept all behaviour as 'being an individual' and just 'growing up'.  Nothing appears to be frowned upon.  Getting drunk is part of growing up.  Having sex with a boyfriend, even if they've only know each other for a couple of weeks, is OK.  In fact I know many grandparents who are actually proud that their daughters are pregnant.  I would have been disappointed, upset, maybe a bit angry and would definitely have felt that I had failed as a parent.  And our social security system makes it just too easy! :(

I'm glad that I put the time in to build a good respectful relationship with my daughter. 

Funny you should take that stance JG because my 'naughty' daughter takes that one too.  She makes nasty comments about her pregnant peers which surprised me.  An ex-boyfriend of hers has a sister who has 2 children by 2 brothers and my daughter witnessed first-hand how difficult it is to raise young children on benefits with a *%$@ for a partner who was never around to look after the children.  I am sure this shaped her ideas about teenage mums.

Yes, I agree. My daughter can't bear to watch women on tv in scanty clothing (MTV videos etc) and considers girls slappers and chavs if they reveal too much. I was brought up to look down on "easy" girls and I am doing the same with my daughter. If SHE doesn't like the way women are portrayed, then she is less likely to want to go down that route and choose likeminded friends.

General comments here, and yes, I know because of my sons that sex ed starts in junior school, meant Ithink it is right and fully support it However, it should start with the parents, as should all personal education, but sadly that is not always the case, which is why I support the schools teaching it. I too had some difficult questions to answer with my eldest whilst at junior school, he asked about a certain sexual practise which took me aback, and Im quite open minded, and explaining was not the eaisest because I didnt want him to know of such things at such a young age, but I explained as age approiate as I could, as I have always done. its the internet that a lot get their knowledge from, I feel, not all parents monitor what their kids see, and pass what they have seen onto our innocent ones.

Whilst we live in a rural area, ankle socks (and the clothes that suit what to me is age related clothing) would, sadly, give the girl some jibbing here at school. I still dont agree with adult clothing on a young girl, which is why I think it must be difficult for parents to get a balance for their daughters.

As to the school I have just removed my son from, yes I am going 'up the ladder' regarding a complaint. First it has to go through goveners, have a hearing and at the end if Im not happy..which I wont be whatever the outcome..I then can complain to the LEA. They cannot take action until the first phase has been compleated. Its a worrying, stressful time, for all of us and especially my son who has to start a new school this late in the year, which he started today and to be honest Im worried sick. he went off confident, so im keeping my fingers cossed and waiting for 3,30pm.

Im sorry if I insulted anyone with my comment of sex before legal age, or before marriage for those that waited that long. I certainly was 'legal' myself, although I didnt marry till i was 31 so Im not commenting any furthur....;).....But, i don't believe myself that waiting till marriage is essential. waiting till one is old enough to understand the consequencies of a sexual relationship, and having self respect for ones self and body is important however, and I feel that comes with age. I don't think any shame should be put on anyone who has sex outside of marriage.

Teenagers are put under so much presure from the media, their magazines, even soaps, to be experienced with sex these days. The tabloid press show naked pics of women and make it a normal thing to show top bits and lower bits with thongs. Whilst i don't think there should be any shame in the naked form, its taken all modesty away. Sex is now promoted as commonplace for our youngsters, and it undermines what we as parents tell them. I certainly don't want my boys having sex yet, or for a few years, and i have constantly drummed into them albeit carefully, that sex is for when they are older, in at least a committed relationship where there are deep feelings already. To expect them to be virgins at marriage is a bit to much in this day and age, but I have ingrained into them that a girl has the right to say no and they must respect that, and even if they do manage at some distant time, they wear a condom and give much respect to the girl afterwards. I never thought I would have such conversations with them till they were at least 16, but its a reflection of the times we live in that it has had to be sooner. They have grown up in a stable home, mum and dad both married before they were created, and we try to instil moral values into them. i have pushed so hard about having a baby young that its the last thing they want to do till they are married, they both want full active lives and they know that wont happen if they are a daddy too soon.

I know we have a high rate of underage and teen pregnanices in this country, but I can't help but think its not much worse than years ago, simply reported more and the babies are chosing to be kept these days, rather than having an abortion or adoption. ten years ago a 16 yr old getting pregnant would raise eyebrows in some to the same xtent that a 12 yr old does today, kids are far more aware and advanced for their ages now, the mystery of sex has been taken away and made commonplace, and its a sad fact that having a baby will ensure you a home and money for life....for those with that mentality no amount of sex education will stop them getting pregnant, and with supportive mums who will look after the baby while they continue their young single life, and have little responsibility for the 24/7 parenting of these babies, then nothing will change. The fact it is illegal dosnt seem to stop them, because the children and young persons act seems to be rarely implemented, and few go to court and have orders or punishments placed on them, nor do their parents.  At 11 they can be punished by law for shplifting but not for underage sex, or so it seems. While those in authority appear to condone these actions, it will not make the situation any better. As parents we do our best, but when there is no fear to being 'caught' and facing the consequencies, in fact often the opposite what can anyone do?

>The fact it is illegal dosnt seem to stop them, because the children and young persons act seems to be rarely implemented, and few go to court and have orders or punishments placed on them, nor do their parents.

That is a huge part of the problem. The message needs to be given, from all sides, that there will be unpleasant consquences of this action, and that much unhappiness will result. All the while that 'allowances' are made this behaviour will be accepted as normal, and those who have stronger moral values will be belittled and vilified, rather than the other way around.

The soft porn in the tabloids has been an enormous influence devaluing sex. :(

It's also back to the parents for not bringing their children up to see why laws are necessary and to have respect for them :( So many parents just don't give their children the time that they need - they have all the material things, but not real parenting :(

Daisy

Too right - too many people are too busy chasing material things and 'keeping up with the Joneses' that their children's moral welfare is neglected - there's no time to do more than make sure they're fed - no time to actually spend time with them, chatting as they do things together. How many families watch TV all together as a unit, or eat a meal together, now that they're all practically living independent lives under the one roof?

>Chidren should be told by their PARENTS (not the school) that it is WRONG to have sex before marriage

Really? I have to say, I'd entirely disagree with this ... and can't honestly believe that the majority of the population would see it as wise or practical to drum this into children. I am quite prudish in many ways, and firmly believe in having respect for yourself and not sleeping with people willy-nilly, but the last thing I would want for any child of mine is to enter into marriage without seeing how different relationships work.

There are good things and bad things with how society has developed, as with all things, but I don't believe this is a practical outlook.

M.

Will get the hang of quoting one day ... should still be packing boxes.

I agree. I think that this is a slightly unreaslistic approach these days. Perhaps children should consider sex outside of a relationship to be improper and wrong?

I told my daughter that girls will be taken advantage of by some boys if they are allowed to.  Interestingly, my 15 yr old son thinks that the teenage girls with babies are chavs.  I told him to hold that thought and not to forget that chavs are also the boys that get them pregnant ;)

What is the difference between "seeing how different relationships work" than being a 'slapper'?   :)

Um, I think there is a big difference.

IMO a slapper is a woman who has a series of one-night-stands with men she barely knows the name of, who allows herself to be used by men because she has no self respect and seeks approval through sex.

..............or she could be checking "how different relationships work"  :)  Incidentally ChloeH, I am sure that you are doing the right thing by your daughter!

>..............or she could be checking "how different relationships work"

well, there is that! Its dependent on the interpretation of the definition of "relationship" by the female :D

And, as an adult, its the right and up to the adult female if she wants to have sexual relationships with men, without a 'loving' relationship. freedom of choice. Do we still have to live in the dark ages where a woman who has different sexual partners is called a 'slapper' for goodness sake. The swinging 60's gave us sexual freedom, its entirely up to the individual how to live their lives, just as those of you who feel sex is wrong outside marriage should be allowed to live your lives as you see fit with out being called a prude.

Not all women who have various partners have sex without actually getting to know if that man is a person they would wish to get personal with. And lets not forget, some women who have sex with lots of almost strangers are very often those that were abused themselves when younger, so have a low self esteem anyway, and fall in and out of doomed relationships simply to find someone for affection, even if short lived. And, while you are calling the women slappers, what about the men? What does that make them?

I happen to know an awful lot of girls and boys, or should I say now men and women, who had sex before they were legal age, its funny how the older we get the more open we get with secrets. How many men were virgins on their wedding night...not many I bet, and lets face it, unless of a duel persuasion they had sex with a woman other than the one they married! Double standards I think lol...anyway, lets make love not war lol ;)

>Do we still have to live in the dark ages where a woman who has different sexual partners is called a 'slapper' for goodness sake.

If it would cut down on the amount of STDs, unwanted pregnancies (both over and under-age) and broken homes, then yes, a thousand times yes! And 'slapper'? Well, that's the polite version! ;)

I agree, this is just the sort of "sexual liberation" that has led our society into the pickle it is in over underage sex.  If adults are not discriminating what sort of example are we setting for these children who decide sex is no big deal just there to be taken.  Sex before marriage would have been a perfectly reasonable step when a relationship was based on mutual respect but society just doesn't seem to be able to seperate that out from just mating with the same disregard as animals and have gone too far.

Too many women and young girls seem to have the morals of alleycats or bitches in season.

Well, all this freedom started when I was a child, so are we to blame the 'respectable' elderly people of this country for the misfourtunes of the youth of today? They grump on about how standards have dropped, but they are comparing standards to the ones their parents placed on them that they rebelled against when young, leading to the revoluton of the 60's. So the values they say are missing are based on values from the 40's and 50's. A time of war, strife and uncertainty. where people stuck together. Funny how we think things were better looking back....

telling a child 'dont have sex its wrong' is far more likely to make them do exactly the opposite, they are far to intelegant these days to quite simply forbid them to do something. especially when all around them they see sex as something usual. Its the same as forbidding them to drink, smoke or take drugs, they may/will try it the more its forbidden. The thing is to try and forge an open talking relationship with your kids at a very early age, where things are discussed and solutions made where their input is valued also. (And I dont mean just sex here) its easy for an adult to lead a kid into making the correct decision, and letting them think they did it themselves, and congratulate them on making that decision. Sex educatio is essential in this world today, i would far rather they be informed of everything, how the body works to putting on a condom, if it keeps them safe. How many believed that 'the first time you wont get pregnant' or 'its ok to make love a bit first, then put the condom on' thats the sort of thing that needs to be clear. together with all the STDs they can catch regardless of 'going all the way'. Yes, I feel a great sadness that the innocence of youth has been lost, that adult things are placed before them at a time they should simply be having fun and thats all. But thats how life is, and we cant turn our backs on it and pretend its not happening, and not educating children no matter how young, is not helping them.

Calling men or women who enjoy a sex life without being in a relationship a slapper or any other term, is looking at a situation with blinkers on, and being totally unfair. There are so many reasons why people have sex without marriage, or being in a committed relationship. Those of you that have only known one man, or woman, and have a happy, fullfilled life, are lucky. There are many that have not had that, and that can stem from an abused childhood to someone whos partner has been unfaithful/abusive etc, people who no longer for whatever reasons want a relationship but have a sex drive and enjoy that part of life. Am I a slapper because I enjoyed sex when younger, having a high sex drive (which I was/am not ashamed of) but had no intention of ever getting married? I didnt sleep with strangers, or get drunk and sleep with anyone going, but i dont look down on those that did/do. We all live our lives as we feel is right for us, and if no one is getting hurt, then what is the problem? Throwing it in the face of kids, through media, their mags, and parents that have many partners and their kids are well aware of it, well to me thats wrong. We should attempt to guide them to whats right and wrong, not by forbidding but by using others lifestyles as an example of a life that they may not prefer and leading by example to a full and enriched life. We cant do that by denying or critising, but by accepting others lifestyles and with our adult knowledge leading our kids on the right path by talking, helping them to correct mistakes and standing by them when they fall, giving love hugs and kisses and playing no matter how old they are. Unconditional love. my 13 and 12 yr old lads still give and receive lots of affection, I actually lead them on a high moral path, but they both know if they do make mistakes no matter how serious they can tell me. I may not be happy, and may enforce restrictions, but they still tell me.

I feel a deep sorrow for the kids of druggy parents, or those that steal and are in and out of prison. what chance do they have? They walk in on parents 'out of it' or having sex with god knows who, they see and hear so much and have so many slaps, are never washed, and let to run and do as they will. Hardly ever fed, some will shoplift to feed the younger ones, turn themselves to the very drugs and alcohol their parents use, these are the ones let down by society. To a child that has the normal lifestyle with all its restrictions, seeing others being allowed out at all hours, allowed to drink and smoke may seem exciting to a young teen feeling the hormone rush. This is where we have the problems, as our kids may go to the same school as these and freedom may seem wonderful viewed from the safety of their homelife. Another reason to explain why this sort of life is not acceptable, rather than simply saying no. if Social Sevices had more power, more money, more homes to place these kids, more backup from the public and media, maybe they could do something to help this next generation. Not just for the kids from poor homes, but those from 'good' homes where for some reason things have failed and an outside help is required.

The problems may be showing themselves in young teen pregnancies, but that is just the tip of the iceburg.

And to those who may regard me as a 'loose woman with no morals' you would find me different if you met us, a happily married family who obviously love and respect each other. There are no secrets kept between my husband and I, we are totally committed to each other in the 'old fashioned' way, I consider myself so lucky to have found a man who I think is absolutly the best, who I love to bits and since the first day I met him I had no interest in anyone else. we have our 18 yr anniversary this month, and remain as romantic and loving as we ever have been. i found him at 30, and never let him go lol. so much for never wanting to get married or have kids.........:)

When I was a teenager in the 1970s a relationship needed to have been going steady for a good 6 months before going 'all the way' - unless the girl wanted to get a reputation for being 'easy'. This was teenager's values, not parents, by the way!

I was a teenager in the 70's, from 69 to 74, and it was a bit of a mix actually, as to who did 'go all the way' and who didnt, but before i went to the school it had the highest number of teenage pregnancies in the country! Product of the 60's 'love child' era I think. And this was a rural town in a posh area! The local villages were 'hotspots' for wife swapping, there was a certain club where all sorts happened, and this was adults, i would guess 20 - 30 age group, being young then cant be accurate, this was country village community, so please don't tell me the town areas were more virtious or for that matter any other parts of the country. I had an older step bro and sister, and they were certainly active from young ages. Thanks to her I had a reputation I certainly didnt earn when I followed her to secondary school. That was difficult to live down, especially as I had the misfourtune to be a child with a full womans body. Lads soon learnt not to touch when I decked them (well, as I said I was a horsy girl, young fit and strong).

Explains perfectly why society is in the mess it's in today when adults set this sort of example to children who don't begin to understand what responsibilty is about. :(

Do we still have to live in the dark ages where a woman who has different sexual partners is called a 'slapper' for goodness sake.
I wouldn't limit myself to women though...... the exact same thing goes to men!!! Let's not have double standards here and think of the fact that it takes 2.

Well said ory, come to that, do any men post on here? i for one would love to hear some honest views from them.

My son knows a lad whose mum was 'caught' in the corner of Chicagos.  Her poor poor son.  My daughter told me of an occasion when there was a couple in the cubicle of the local night club.  There was a woman in our street who had 4 children of various colours.  These are slappers IMO.  2 18 year olds in a long-term loving relationship would not be slappers if they were having sex IMO

When I refer to 'seeing how different relationships work', I am referring to far more than just sex.

I think there's a vast difference between having sex within a stable relationship and having regular one-night stands, various partners on the go at the one time, sex with people when you barely know their name. Obviously, these are the two extremes and there is a greyer area in the middle.

People's lives are not the same now as they would have been in the years where sex outside marriage would have been considered scandalous. As I said earlier, there is good and bad in this - we all have far more opportunity and people are really open to make their own choices in life - and with that comes greater expectation and opportunities for experimentation.

How does your no sex outside marriage stance view divorce? Should the people who save themselves for marriage then stay put if that happens to be a joyless and loveless marriage?

This will be an interesting conversation, much easier to have in person without causing arguments than on the internet where offence can be easily caused as you can't read people's tones ... so no offence meant in any of this. :D

M.

But don't we hear it all the time, the little girls who get pregnant at the age of 12 and 13, think that they have met 'The right one'?

Hmm, Mr Right or Mister Right Now...

Is that not just an excuse.....or wanting to be grown up!

Absolutely, which is why I think the last thing they should do is feel they have to marry them. :D

M.

Luckily at 12 or 13 they can't! So many couples nowadays aren't married, and marriage isn't promoted ("It's just a bit of paper" :rolleyes: ) how can the children be expected to realise there's a legal age for marriage, and that there's a reason for it?

I don't think that I said that sex before marriage is wrong, what I said was that 'children' should be told  by their parents that sex before marriage is wrong.  'Children' being those under the age of consent!

I don;t think children should be told sex before marriage is wrong, but sex before 16 is wrong and should be drummed into children that they should live a life first. 

Ok thats what my parents did to me but I haven't even thought about having kids at all in my life, and don't even want to Marry untill I've completed uni!

Not even sex before 16 though surely, Rox? Whatever age, whatever persuasion, the issue (IMO only) is putting value around sex and relationships again, and discouraging the view that it is just another leisure activity open to people.

M.

>discouraging the view that it is just another leisure activity open to people.

That's hit the nail on the head! The image portayed in a lot of the media is that it's just something you do, on a par with going for a curry after an evening out.

Totally agree Lily. 

Sex is not just an activity that's done with anyone and everyone like it seems to be.  Going away from the main point I think here though. 

I have so many friend's (15-20) who see sex as something that happens on a friday/saturday night after clubbing with some person.  (My veiw is compleatly different!) but the whole values gone.

Deffiently away from the point so I shall shut :D

But are we not told that a lot of sexual problems relate back to how sex was portrayed to young children? Again, we're talking about 'degrees' here, from the mildly discouraged through to being told that sex is 'dirty' and nice people don't do that sort of thing ... and everything in the middle.

M. (now following JG's flylady advice and setting her timer to make sure she does at least 15 minutes box packing at a time before checking back on this thread LOL)

>But are we not told that a lot of sexual problems relate back to how sex was portrayed to young children?

Sex wasn't portrayed at all to young children! ;) I can understand that a certain amount of sex education needs to be given in primary schools - girls are physically maturing earlier than when I was a girl, when the average age for first periods was around 13 or 14, and the biology lessons at secondary school covered the subject before girls had started. Now that the age of starting periods has dropped to about 11 it's obvious that a certain amount of education needs to be given much younger - but condoms? No, I'm sorry but I think that's taking things too far, unless it's also drummed into their heads that they must wait till they're at least 16 before doing anything that might require the use of one! Their bodies mature earlier but mentally they're still little children who need to be protected from abuse.

I'm not really talking about sex education there though, but more around how sex is portrayed within the family unit - and I still can't help thinking that so much of this does come back to the family, rather than laying the blame with the schools.

It is a chicken and egg though, isn't it ... if schools don't teach sex education, but the kids think they know it all and are doing it anyway, how are they going to protect themselves.

M.

By teaching them to have pride and respect for themselves, and not to lower their standards. Of course it takes a mature mental attitude to do this - and children by and large aren't capable of that. Just as there's no 'safe level' of drug-taking, the message should be that there's no 'safe' underage sex.

it should certainly be the parents role to teach about the personal side of sex, the school teach the biology. But where does that leave the ones that have parents that cant/wont talk about sex as part of human relationships? This leaves the kids to learn from each other. There will always be those who will have sex, and they need to know how to get and use condoms, and also to have someone they can go to if they think they are pregnant, if they cant go home because they are under threat not to have sex, never mind get pregnant. if a girl is bought up to respect herself, and have a good home support, I dont think the fact the school have these options will make her give in to sex, if her beliefs are that sex to soon is not the best way to live. But it may just protect those that do, and if shes going to anyway is it not better she is protected? the pill is also easy to get, but offers no protection from STds. Even those that don't go 'all the way' need to know just how much contact can pass on certain stds, and the use of condoms even without full sex may be wise.

>Sex wasn't portrayed at all to young children!

I was 14 before I discovered babies aren't delivered by a stork LOL :D

>How does your no sex outside marriage stance view divorce? Should the people who save themselves for marriage then stay put if that happens to be a joyless and loveless marriage?

Divorce is legal - so is remarriage, if people want a sex life. I know several single celibates who are very happy to stay that way. :)

>we all have far more opportunity and people are really open to make their own choices in life - and with that comes greater expectation and opportunities for experimentation.

And with it far more opportunity for disease.