Sorry if I've put this in the wrong place, but it is about breeding, sort of.

A friend was asking me about white GSD's today, as if I knew something about them (I don't, by the way :) ) Apparently the sire has been hip-scored (total of 11) and the dam's litter sister has been hip-scored (8, I think) but the breeder didn't want to put her bitch under a GA, so the dam hasn't been done. My friend's sister wants to buy one of the pups, but isn't sure if it would be ok to do so under the circumstances. I must admit to hearing a few alarm bells, which I mentioned, but was I being fair?

Are there any other health tests they should be asking about?

On the basis that the mother hasn't been hip scored I would not buy a puppy. The Auntie's score is of no relevance.

The parents should be tested for everything that a coloured GSD is tested for. I'll just do a little googling and I'll get back later. Moonmaiden will be able to tell you though.

Dawn R.

Apart from hip scoring, breed mean score of 19 and median 12, it would seem that GSD should be DNA tested for Haemophilia A.

Dawn R.

PS, just a thought but with these pups being 'white' I wonder whether they should be BAER hearing tested too? Not sure, just asking really, as I know they are not strictly speaking white, but vaguely golden/yellow/buff.

I think i'm right in saying only the father needs to be tested for haemophillia as only males are carriers. I would want to know why the bitch hasn't been hip scored. You can have them scored under sedation. Maybe the bitch has been scored but is very high so the breeder doesnt want to say.

As for colour, i think they are a dilution of the normal black/gold as opposed to 'white' dogs. So they dont have the associated genetic probs.

I may be wrong so check with someone in the breed or the breed club

Hi Helen, it might very well be different in dogs, but Haemophilia in people is carried by females and affects males. So therefor both sexes are implicated in the disease. I'm not in GSD but I imagine this will be the case in the breed too, but as I said, I could be wrong.

Dawn R.

Both dogs and bitches are tested for HA in my breed (Basenji) so I would think it would be the same in GSD's.

The words run & mile come to mind 

Not wanting to X ray the bitch smacks of one of two things 1. Ignorance or 2.The fear the bitch has bad hips for some reason

As the dog's score is 11 the bitch needs to be lower IMHO I personally would require the dog to be something very special with a score of 11 There are lots of good GSDs with lower scores out there & it's not the total score but the individual hips score that is most important. ie 11:0=11 are worse hips than 5:6=11

In GSDs the dog must be Haemophilia tested especially if they have an unbroken female line to a know sufferer male The test for bitches is not as reliable

I would be asking myself why has the breeder opted to not test the bitch & then breed from her & especially as the colour is non standard & of course the breeder is open(along with the stud dog owner)to being sued if any of the puppies develop HD or are found to have haemophilia.

BTW the puppies along with their parents are very unlikely to actually be white the will be much more likely to be cream or pale brown

It is also very important to check all GSD pedigrees(& this means looking up dogs off the pedigree)for known epileptics. Many"white"GSDs(along with many "Alsatian"type GSDs)go back to an import called Ingosohn of Erol(G sire of Avon Prince of Alumvale)through a G G son Hendrawen's Vondaun Quebec, who was an epileptic & in turn the sire of several epileptics

Oooops the should of course be a link to Quebec's son Hendrawen's Quadrille of Eveley who was an epileptic not Quebec

BTW the puppies along with their parents are very unlikely to actually be white the will be much more likely to be cream or pale brown

There's an interesting "white" GSD at the pet training club I go to. Never seen anything like it. Presumably no doubt about her being a GSD, and she looks it, although she is HUGE -can't imagine how big she will end up as she is still only 8 months but absolutely enormous. (At a rough guess I'd say she weighs over 35 kg now, maybe even 40.) Anyway, I have looked closely at her coat and to me it looks totally white on the body, it doesn't even look pale cream (but knowing what cream Goldens are like, they often develop more of a colour as they grow up and can look white as snow as pups, and aren't finished until about 3). Anyway, this bitch has cream  patches on her otherwise white ears! Most odd.

Thanks everyone. I'll be seeing my friends sister today, she has asked to see a registration document so that she knows what she is looking at when she goes to look at the pups again. Somehow, even though she has asked about health tests that should be done, I don't think she will listen :( I spoke to her last night and it sounds like she has let her heart rule her mind and decided on a bitch puppy (there is only one bitch) Maybe face to face I can let her know what she might be getting, but somehow I doubt it.

Oh well, we can only inform and let them make up their own minds :(

Oh dear Lindylou,

You will probably be right, unfortuantely common sense over rides the sight of a beautiful cute white fluff ball, she has no doubt fallen head over heals and is not thinking of a few years down the line when the poor dogs hips are failing.

Instead of trying to advise her why not show her! Get on the Internet print out the photo's and stories of hip dysplacia.

Then do your friend a huge favour, try and find some white GSD breeders with hip tests and all appropriate health testing with 'cute fluffball picture' and that should hopefully sway her towards those ones instead of this one.

We are all drawn to those cute puppy eyes, you just need to deflect her sights elsewhere!

IMHE those pretty cream patches can & often do spread & TBH unless the parents & puppies are pure white(as the Seeing Eye white GSDs in the US & the Swiss White Shepherds)they should not be described as "white"

Paws crossed the KC will be making all non standard GSD colour description on registrations as just that non standard-so no more blue, champagne, cream, gold or white colours on GSDs registrations Just the correct ones ie Black or black saddle with tan, or gold to light grey markings. All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables.

>it's not the total score but the individual hips score that is most important. ie 11:0=11 are worse hips than 5:6=11

Not necessarily so - Malcolm Willis says that HD is largely a bilateral condition (both sides scoring roughly evenly, within 4 points or less), and that widely uneven scores can be a result of bad positioning for the x-ray or trauma to the hip.

Interestingly he says that dogs sedated for x-rays can have better scores than they would if x-rayed because the dog is less relaxed during sedation - that 'sedated' scores might give an untrue impression of the condition of the hip.

When I spoke to an Senior Orthopedic Veterinary Surgeon at the AHT he told me from a health point of view  a more even score was better than an uneven score. He advised against breeding from dogs that have very uneven scores. All uneven scores IHO were not always attributed to accident/injury.  He thought one reason my dog with severe HD had no problems with pain etc was the fact that both hips were identical He was & still is deeply involved with the reasearch into the genetic & environs attributes of HD & for this reason he was interested in my dog

He was also interested in my GSD with perfect hips as well(both ends of the scale so to speak)

Excellent as Malcolm is he is a genetist & not an orthopedic specialist.

BTW all my dogs are X rayed under GA so my dog with the perfect hips did have perfect hips

When breeding though as opposed to managing an affected dog, it is the genetics that are important. 

Genetically it is a bilateral condition so when making BREEDING DECISIONS I would ingore a very one sided score as not being relevant to what will be produced, though owning a dog with an uneven score I wouldbe concious that it may have problems, because of the uneveness

I agree - having uneven hips will cause unbalanced gait and therefore unbalanced wear and tear on spine, joints and muscles, causing pain. When both sides are roughly even the effects will be more even, often with no signs of a limp.

I toatally agree with brainless, it has been said by Malcolm willis that when one hip is double or more than the other it is an environmental rather than genetic occurance.

I had my GSD hip scored not very long ago, was worried sick about it because when she was a youngster she was hit right across her back end by a washing prop, which is basically a 2x2 wood pole about 9 foot long and very heavy, she squealed and screamed for ages, we took her straight to the vet who xrayed her, he sid there was no damage as far as he could tell but she would be very sore for a while, he put her on anti inflamatories.  He did however warn us that this could affect her score greatly, even to the point of ruining it.

We took her to be scored anyway, and I was delighted and amazed at her score of 4:8

If she hadn't been hit by the prop who knows how good her score could have been, but it has satisfied me that this is fine to breed from, the dog I intend putting her with is a low scoring dog.

And no I am not breeding just for hips! my bitch is one of the sweetest natured shepherds I have ever owned, she is beautiful, intelligent and altogether a superb specimin, I look forward to seeing her children

MM said earler that a score of 11:0 is worse than 5:6.

There are 2 ways of looking at this, if a stud dog had a score of 11:0 it would suggest to me that before the hip which scored 11 was damaged, the dog may have had a score of say 0:0 or 0:1 or even 0:3, I would consider this a really good score.  The dog has not inherited the scor of 11 on one hip, that score has been caused to happen by environmental factors which with an enlightened owner would not be passed onto pups.

Owning that dogs until old age however would put the thing in a different light, because of the stress and trauma to hip obviously this will affect him as he gets older, and in this situation a score of 5:6 is alot more desirable.

The point I am trying to make is that when we look at dogs scores dogs with one hip double or more to the other, we should be looking at the lower scoring hip as a guide what the upper scoring hip would have been before environmntal damage.

In aswer to the original question, I would want alot more than just Mum and Dad scored, and I certainly would not buy a pup from a bitch which has not been scored, their reason smacks excuse to me, dogs can also be sedated as well as put under a GA, I too think it is fear of the score putting her off getting the bitch done.:rolleyes:      

I brought a GSD back in my young,stupid days.Parents were hip scored but I didn't understand much about it and was advised they were fine.However it turned out that the sire ,scored 27 with most of the points on one side.Was told it was due to injury.The pup ended up with severe HD by a young age(no injuries,good nutition,careul exercise etc) ...one hip being all but non existant!!...COINCEDENCE????who can tell.