But again we're talking about 'degrees' here, aren't we?

Yes, divorce is legal, but surely most people would agree that it is far too commonplace and that marriages are begun and ended far too lightly.

>And with it far more opportunity for disease.

Makes me shudder just to think of it, but again people in STABLE relationships having sex with like-minded people are at a lower (not zero ;) !) risk of such things (as a relative of mine found a couple of years ago, despite thinking they were in a completely monogamous marriage of many years standing).

Yes, if you sleep with the village bike who has a different bloke each night, or their male equivalent, dodging disease becomes a matter of time, but that surely comes down to character judgement ... or medical tests, if you must, in which case all marriages where either partner has been sexually active should be doing this before taking that step.

M.

>despite thinking they were in a completely monogamous marriage of many years standing).

And weren't they? Had someone been cheating?

Apparently the husband thought sex with men didn't count as cheating ... but that's a whole other story.

M.

Just goes to show that sex with anyone other than a single partner is dangerous.

indeed LOL!

I feel that FAR too much emphasis is put on the BIOLOGY of sex education and not half enough on the moral, social and economic side of things

I agree there.

I have been very open with my kids about sex, explaining that it is a powerful force.  The animals help as thy see that the por dogs are driven by forces they do not understand.

They do not seem to have any mystique about sex.

My daughhter has been going out with her boyfreind for over 3 years and is now 18 1/2.  I told her that she was entitled to see the doctor without me if she felt she had a need.

I suspect that she did start being sexually active very shortly before her 16th birthday, but I would not allow her boyfreind to stay over until well after by which time they had been courting for a year.

Despite many of their freinds having pretty loose morals, and the problems of her running wild, they both have pretty conservative views on sharing themselves with the opposite sex, though the 15 year old boy makes all the macho noises.

Agree melodvsk, sadly its more to do with the sylabus, what they legally have to teach them, rather than finding time for morality. They have PSD (personal sexual development) sessions, but at the end of the day the teachers have to be so careful what they say and teach if they wander from the guidelines in case they upset or offend parents. What is ones moral standing may not be anothers, and thats where complications come in. Schools are full of mixes of homes, from the old fashioned one where mum is at home, dad works, the children are all biologically theirs, to homes where there are single parents, or both parents work, the parents are not biologically both parents, some have 2 women as parents, some 2 men, some kids raised by grandparents or the extended family, some from foster homes, adopted etc etc, so great care has to be taken on moral issues. This I feel is best taught at home. A single mum or dad may have different partners as the child grows up, so to say different partners is wrong can cause great upset for that child which in itself is wrong. teaching self respect, and making girls and boys aware that its ok to say no is good, but it needs to be a careful path to tread.

However this news somes up the state of the country :( Unfortantly teenages girl (under the age of 16, over age 16 are legal and "mature in the eyes of the law")

There's lots of things that are to blame.  Possibly the biggest being the media!  Also Sex education...Maybe less is more?  Talking about it to children "prepares" them for it by knowing what to expect.  Maybe I'm wrong.

I can't see how any young girl would want to be a mother because I hate the thought of Kids! :D

What I can't understand is how an 11 year old was out drinking in a big city with mate! 

Although I've not seen anywhere the "fathers" story, Did he rape her?  (I know underage sex is wrong but lets face it, she's getting lots of support for doing it, why is he being sentanced with rape?  I haven't seen anywhere say she was raped, Unless of course I'm wrong?

It might be considered rape because of her age.  Being so young it might be considered that she was not old enough to consent in the way we understand it.  However, this would open a whole new can of worms as it asks the question when does a child know the difference between right and wrong.  Was she wrong to have sex or was she the victim or paedophilia? 

As someone who lived with a partner for 2 years before marriage I would have had a big problem telling mine that sex before marriage is wrong, a case of don't do as I do but do as I say.

But hereby lies the problem.........we cannot expect our children to conform to standards which we are not prepared to adhere to ourselves........so where does that leave the children of 'children' when they grow up?  (BTW I am not saying CherylS that you were wrong to live with your partner before marriage   :)  )

>BTW I am not saying CherylS that you were wrong to live with your partner before marriage  

which I would dispute if you did :)  Living with someone, securing a home, getting married, waiting 4 years to have children and having stayed in that relationship 28 years (incl 25 as married) is a far cry from the original topic IMO. I see nothing wrong with people living together (as you would expect) if there is mutual respect, self respect and the couple are self-sufficient. 

I've not had a problem admitting to my son that I made mistakes in the past because I thought I was doing the right thing, and learned that no, I didn't know it all. I've told him I'd hate to see him make the same mistakes I did, and if that he's got any sense he'll learn from my mistakes and not waste time making the same ones himself! :D

One of the main differences today is that it is assumed and accepted that, if a couple are in a relationship that's lasted more than a couple of weeks, it must be a sexual relationship.  This must put a lot of pressure on youngsters who might just prefer to take a bit longer to get to know each other.
When I first starting dating, many moons ago, there was a lot of excitement in fancying someone, being asked out and going on proper dates. Actually sleeping with someone was considered a huge step and much too serious.  We were having too much fun to worry about things like contraception and STDs.
As and when each relationship ran its course, you could go your separate ways with your self respect still intact.  If a girl had lots of boyfriends she was envied as a very popular girl - I suppose nowadays she'd be labelled a slapper.....

tyby, a girl who has many boyfriends (talking here of 12-16 years olds) is known to be very popular however a girl of the same age who has many sexual partners is either seen at a sl*t (by most) or a role model (to afew of her close friends who follow suit) :(

I think you're right tyby.  There seems to be an acceptance that sex is a normal part of "going out with someone"

A little unconventional and perhaps not agreed by all but one of the things I told my teen daughter was that boys find mystery attractive. If you want to know if a boy really wants to go out with you because he likes you for who you are or just for sex then the only way is not to give in to sex. If it's just the sex they want it's likely they won't hang around for long before looking for the next conquest.  Boys only like the easy girls for quick self gratification, they don't particularly want them for longterm girlfriends. Of course this is all going back to self respect.

This is one I had to really drum in to my daughter that there was absolutely no reason to go 'all the way' and that for her emotional wellbeing and self respect it was far better if she didn't. 

I would have prefered she had waited longer than the bare minimum age of consent, but as she was in a pretty stable relationship, with someone she had known for years, who had been a friend and stood by her through troubled times, I could understand her position.

I pointed out that even when I was her age many were having sex at 16 (but not as many as made out they did), but I had never wanted to experiment with a spotty tenager as I had chosen to be fairly informed about the matter in theory and didn't see the hurry to practice.

told her I was nearly 21 when I took that step with her father (before marrriage) and that I was carried away by the force of feelings, and as it turns out had made a poor choice of life partner.  I felt that he must be 'the one' if I had such strong feelings.  I also told her how bad for ones self respect divng into a sexual relationship on the rebound could be, based on my experience, and that you needed to be very secure witth your emotions before taking such a step if it was to be a good one.

I always made a point of telling her that young people do fall in love (many adults belittle by saying how can teens be in love) and have very powerful sexual feelings, but also that they are likely to be short lived and transient, and it was a good idea to see if they would fizzle out before she took such a serious and potentially harmful step. 

I advised her to not put herself in a position of extreme temptation (to go out in groups, and not spend to much time alone with a boyfreind), especially when having ones common sense eroded by drink.

I gave the opinion that it was rare for people to stay just friends after they had been intimate, and there was a lot of presure especially on boys to notch up marks on the bed post, and being sexually active rarely enhanced a girls reputation.

I had a lot of discussions about the price of mistakes, and that most often the girls were the ones to pay permanently, by having babies, by not being able to have them later due to infections etc.

With my boy I have pointed out that if he was able to get sex easily, the chances were these would not be girls responsible enough to be bringing up the children he would have to maintain, and would he want to maintain such a lifestyle while paying for children he might help create.

With both I have said contraception is both their responsibility, and that my son should not trust to the girl being protected.

With my daughter I advised it was a good idea to be doubly protected.  If she chose to be on the pill she didn't have to tell the boy, and should expect him to use protection, as it isn't just pregnancy to be avoided.

Once she had been with her boyfreind 18 months I was pleased once accidentaly to find she had been using both the pill and condoms.

I speak very frankly with the children and their freinds about matters emotional sexual and health, as it comes up.  Many say that their parents would never dream of being so frank, especially about being honest about their own experiences and what these had taught them.

I do remind them that my perspective may be rather coloured and negative due to things working out badly relationship wise for me, but that statistics prove this is at least as likely as things working out well, and even with relationships that lasted there was a lot of give and take and hard work involved.

I make it a big point not to take sides when my daughter and boyfreind fall out.  I try to speak to ehr to show both sides of an issue and what may be driving disagreements, that cooling off was always a good idea, not to say or do anything hasty, to give each other space (they have tended to be joined at the hip all this time) and make time for some seperate time with their freidns and family.

Well done Brainless! 
I'm coming to the conclusion that much of the childrens' attitude depends on the example set by their parents and the time spent talking to them, with, as always, the odd exception, where everyone says "Where on earth has that (behaviour) come from???" :rolleyes:

My Aunt 'had' to get married (about 60 years ago now) and was VERY frowned upon in those days.  She went on to produce 17 children, who in turn each produced illigitimate children themselves.

Sadly from talking to mainly my daughters freinds, and befor that my brothers femal friends, I get the impression that sex has been truly devalued, that many felt it was something to be got over with, and expected, and that in fact amny woudl prefer not to be having sex. 

They just don't seem to think no is an option, by the time they realise that it is many have been quite damaged by being used, or allowing themselves to be used.

This is very sad, and I don't understand with all this training in psycology why part of Sex education isn't the emotional implications and how maturity of mind effects the impact various expereinces have on a person.

Why do you call yourself brainless when you are so sensible, and give such well balanced posts :)

When I was a computer newby I chose it as my handle.  Scatterbrain would be more accurate, the brain is there but it is rather disorganised and muddled

LOL brainless.............I'll join you with the scatterbrained bit!

Unless the law has changed, it was stated that up to 13 she could not give true consent, so it was rape, upwards of 13 to 16 if she gave consent it was unlawful sexual intercourse.

Edited to say this wont drop where I want it to.........

That makes sence calm storm (take it you were in reply to me?)

Now I want to know hhow old she told the boy she was (sorry I have little faith in young girls!!!!)

Don't you think the way some girls dress has anything to do with it??? Some of the stuff they wear seems to say take me, take me??? Like the slogan 'so many boys, so little time'??? They seem to be a paedaphiles dream??? I can't understand why some parents let them dress so provocatively?? All the best, Dawn

I absolutely agree with the clothing bit although it shouldn't make a difference.  Little girls don't always realise the affect they have on men let alone boys.  Problem first arose in our house when my daughter was earning money to buy her own clothes.  I told my daughter exactly what I envisaged would happen if she wore a t-shirt with lifesize handprints on the front.  She looked at me as if I was bonkers and didn't believe for one moment that boys would actually "compare" their hands to the prints :rolleyes: but did change before she went to the nightclub. 

newfie, those t shirts and all like them make me cringe and want to shake the parents!  I also think the sexually provocative clothes placed on developing bodies is disgusting too. There is a path for young girls where they can be fashionable without looking like prostitutes, there is no need for revealing clothes and heavy makeup making 12 yr olds look like 16, and 15 yr olds like 18. There are enough preditors out there without putting the iceing on the cake for them. yes, in a perfect world we should all be able to wear what we like, but its not a perfect world.

Yes it was ice queen, just to clear up the age/rape question. it makes no difference how old she said she was to the male in question, until it comes to court, thats when the solicitors earn their money with defence.
In his interview, it would have been attempted to establish if he had prior knowledge of her, how he answered any questions would have been on the advice of his solicitor present at the time. Other witness statements would have been taken, a whole host of social service intervention, before it came to court (if it did at the end of the day, depending on the advice of the CPS.

Being very far from a perfect person, Ive avoided any kind personal judgement, but the social commentary has been fascinated and well observed on this thread.
     How ever as a largely female collective it does fill me with sadness to see the use of Alley cats,Slappers and scrubbers. (what of the Tom Cats?????? *raises a wry eye brow*)
     I feel extremely sorrry for young women and girls in this day and age. Im so gald I had valerie singleton, has anyone seen Holly willoughby on saturday morning childrens TV?? how does she get away with the gratuitous Cleavage all the time??? All these awful 'Lads magazines' advertised on TV, get your little black book of girls numbers,how to cheat on your girlfriend....... urrrgh. :(
If Young males are conditioned to think women are disposable... what regard will they have for the 'disposable'??

HG, I've yet to meet the perfect person...other than meself of course!!!  :P :P :P

I agree though, men have oppressed and distressed us for years! Now you don't even need a top shelf product to see boobs and all sorts of stuff in lads mags and even 'Newspapers'(surely a contradition in terms and worthy of a Trading Standards enquiry??). This just goes to show how low society has gone though doesn't it?? Sex sells, men buy and women spend!! :D ...sad but true...

HG, I hope it makes you feel a bit better when I tell you that I refer to boys as slappers as well :D  As I have a son I am very conscious of conversations that might give an unbalanced point of view and make my feelings very clear to my children of both sexes that respect means the same thing for girls and boys.  Boys that sleep around are no better than the girls that do the same and are just as much at risk from STDs.  As it is when my son wants to refer to anyone in a derogertory way he calls them Chavs which is unisex isn't it?  I think I've already mentioned that he spoke with disgust at the teenage girls pushing babies around our town centre and I told him to hold that thought.  Boys are just as responsible for the teenage pregnancies as the girls.