Hi

I was talking to some one today who was telling me that there bitch, a terrier like mine had two litters the second having been mated on the season after the first litter. Then she was spayed.

According to her it was quite common among terriers as they are quick to recover from the first litter and they have no problems at all with it. The norm appears to be have a first litter, then wait about 18 months and have two in a row. No more after that

This is new to me and I am some what horrified at the thought of it but it has got me thinking. Right enough my bitch gave birth 11 weeks ago and she is back to her old self already. She is solid muscle not a ounze of fat on her. Her teats are slightly loose but not bad concidering it is her second litter. I didnt get what I wanted from the last litter so will be mating her again but was planning on waiting 18mths to 2yrs to do it but if I was able to mate her next season I would hopefully have my pup and she would be spayed. Another thing that bothers me about waiting is the docking issue. If she had another litter soon I may still be able to get them docked before the new law comes in

As I say I was only thinking about it, having never heard of it before.

Has anyone else and what are your views on it.

There is no way I would do anything to my girl that would be detremental to her health. That is why I was planning waiting. First and formost she is a very special pet.

Wendy

What does you Breed Club code of ethics permit?  They are the largest concensus you are likely to meet within your particular breed.

I didnt get what I wanted from the last litter so will be mating her again but was planning on waiting 18mths to 2yrs to do it but if I was able to mate her next season I would hopefully have my pup and she would be spayed.

What about the inbetween...the "Norm" certainly isn't what your freind has adviced.  You dont have to wait 18-24 month either but you could leave a season which would be 12 months. 

Your sentence above doesn't give any thought to what would really be seen as the norm which is what is confusing me a bit.. it is almost like asking of I don't mate her next season I have to wait 18-24 months. Do you see what I mean.

Your bitch may appear back to 100% normal at 11 weeks post whelping but that doesn't mean she is.

Most breed clubs would not support this.

Why not wait 12 months, why does it have to be 6 months or 18 months, unless I am missing something and your bitches come in every 9 month or more?

HI

Sorry causing a bit of confusion here.

I was wanting to wait the 18months  as I wanted to make sure she was fully over this litter. I may decide at 12 months she is ok but I am looking at the longer picture. As i said i would do nothing to harm my girl so if waiting the longer time is better I will do it. She  comes into season every 6 months apart from the last one when we were waiting to mate her she was 2 months late. Must of known lol. It also depends what time of year  she comes into season as to when she is mated.

Just when this person( not a friend just someone i met out walking) said this it did get me thinking but to be honest I dont think I would do it. As you say she may look over the litter but you have no idea what is happening inside. I would much rather wait. It is to be her last litter.

I was interested to know if anyone else had heard of it as I hadnt. 

Wendy

Hi lumphy this is not something new to be heard, a bitch can be bred within 6 months of the last litter and would happily do so in the wilderness, but it is more of a moral and ethical idea to not do so, it is like us popping babies out one after the other, yes we could do it, but most of us choose not to, dogs recover far quicker than us, and the smaller breeds seem to especially well.

But personally I would wait 12 months, to insure a happy bitch and pups, I personally would not wish to wear mine down like that and wait. :-)

My terrier looked great 11 weeks after giving birth, too. The puppies are now 5 months old and her coat has blown - not unusual in my experience. Personally I think a bitch of any breed should be given longer than 6 months to recover both physically and mentally. Is it really fair not to give her a break and let her have a a few months of normal life before she is pregnant again? She has been carrying/rearing for 17 weeks - longer if you kept a puppy. Surely she deserves more than 18 weeks off?

I think to be honest terriers tend to feed their puppies a lot longer than the bigger breeds also. My bitches still feed their pups at 7 weeks , they don't even start to wean them to 4-5 weeks. 

a bitch can be bred within 6 months of the last litter and would happily do so in the wilderness,



Dog's nearest relatives the wolves do not have two litters a year & certainly do not breed within 6 months of a previous litter. Most"primitive"breeds like Basenji's have a single season a year as a norm(Basenji's are a relatively recent breed to come from the"wild"ie not being bred to develop a "breed"but a breed that has evolved close to man but independantly.)

So by saying in the wilderness do you mean a wild dog/wolf or a domesticated dog living feral ?

If it is the latter it then yes bitches would breed every season, but the toil on their bodies would be immense & the timing of seasons in succeeding years would change as the phyical condition of the bitch worsened & her litter size wiould also reduce

Yes, Moonmaiden, I meant dog not wolf or Basenji's, we are talking about terriers here aren't we? As I am sure others reading would understand and do not understand your

As you know being experienced yourself most dogs will come into season from 6 months onwards (depending on breed) A bitch left to her own devices would mate every 6 months or so, as nature intended.  And quite rightly as you say and as we know, this would wear out a bitch and lesson it's life considerably, and the lives and health of the pups.

We all know that a dog can be bred every 6 months, a bitch will only come into season if she is healthy and her body is ready for mating, but as a civilized society it is not good practice for anyone to do so who cares about their bitch. I was just stating that although a dog would naturally have pups every 6 months whilst in good health........  what could be is not what should be!

>A bitch left to her own devices would mate every 6 months or so, as nature intended.

The point is 'nature' didn't intend bitches to come into season twice a year - that's a byproduct of manmade domestication. Therefore it's the responsibility of the owner to make sure the bitch is protected from this side-effect.

Exactly, but now it is the nature of the dog to do so, and this can not be changed, some poor bitches even have 3 seasons a year! Things change the dog is no longer on the same cycle as the wolf and has not been for a long, long time.  It is up to us not to take advantage of the situation, some people do and their bitches greatly suffer for it.

Everyone is in agreement on this post as far as I can see that it would be unethical to take advantage of this.

Hi

Yes I agree it would be unethical to breed a bitch every season. I do wonder though if the bitch would either not come into season or absorb the litter if she was not in the condition to rear it. I have seen bitches(strays) in terrible states after giving birth because they gave so much to the litter so maybe they would do there best for there pups, maternal instincs taking over.

I would like to make it clear that in my original post I was talking about doing this once and not every season. The bitch would have no more than 3 litters, 2 close together then no more.

I still wouldnt be happy doing it and wont be. Just in case anyone was thinking I was.

Wendy

lumphy, there are sometimes valid reasons for mating 6 monthly, last chance, one chance at the right stud dog, bless you I can see the temptation with your worry about the docking laws, but a lot of breeders will be affected by this, rushing in a quick litter in is not the answer. Getting the pup you want may not happen also, who knows what a litter will produce if the last litter did not have what you wanted, maybe the next will not also, and then you may feel the need to breed her again!

I can still feel some conflict in you and you feel your original question has not been answered.

Just to put your mind at rest as to whether the lady you met is correct or are the opinions on this thread  more in tune with your breed why not as Isabel commented earlier, contact your dogs breed club who are the experts, then you will know for sure what is really recommended for your breed, each breed has different rulings and guidlines.

As a breeder I know how I feel, I answer your question with my heart but I do not have your breed so call your breed club for clarification.

We had sucessive litters from our terrier, BUT she only ever had a 12 mth cycle.

I know this is a slightly different situation as the OP bitch is on a 6 mth cycle, but as she says she wants to wait for the right time of year then as she has just weaned a litter the OP must consider this the 'right' time of year so in 6 mth it will and can only be the 'wrong' time.(i'm assuming here that you don't want winter pups)

Surely it isn't that hard to think 12 mths would be ideal. same time of year as this litter, bitch over the whelping and rearing (or if not, it will have become apparent by then) and the bitch is only 12 mth older as opposed to 2 years older. (as she has had 2 litters already i guess she must be around 3-4 now)

Our JRT had a litter at 2, 3 and 4 and was spayed. She had no ill effects whatsoever, not one puppy died and each year her litter size increased.

Hi

We must of posted at the same time there lol

Yes if I was to mate her the next season it would be the wrong time of year for me. I dont want a summer litter. So the next mating would be either 12 or 24 months. I was mistaken when I said 18mths as that would be a summer litter.

Naturally it depends when she does come into season. Up till this last season she was a regular six months this one was 8 so we will see and play it by ear. Slightly later would be good as it was a real pain getting her mated on New Years eve this year.

Wendy

Our terrier started on a 3mth cycle then she went 6 and after her 1st litter she went 12mth. So maybe your bitch will naturally go to 12 mth and solve the problem for you!! LOL

Hi

That would be lovely no inconvinent seasons in between. It would be really helpfull if she then stopped after the next litter and save me getting her spayed.

But then again she is a russell and she will do exactly what she wants when she wants to. lol

Wendy

:D

HI

Carrington no conflict in me I was only asking the question. Sorry if it came across that way.

If I dont get what I want from the next litter I will not be breeding her again and will have to buy in a bitch instead. I wont and have never had more than 3 litters from a bitch.

Wendy

I don't see anything enethical in breeding on a subsequent season if that is appropriate to the breed.  The best people to advise if that is the case would be your Breed Club.

It has become a common understanding by many reproductive specialists now that it is far healthier for a bitch to be bred on two consecutive seasons and then spayed than it is for her to be bred, go through a season where she is not bred, and then bred again. The idea is that it is the effects of the hormones that cause the drag on a bitch and regardless of pregnancy or not, the body (and especially the uterus) still goes exactly the same hormonal process. The uterus is hammered by progesterone whether there is conception or not and so the idea is that it healthier to breed on two consecutive seasons and then spay than to wait three seasons before doing so. Interesting isn't it?

Where's the evidence for this? I can't see that not feeding a litter of 10 for 6 weeks or so is going to be as hard on a bitch as feeding a litter would be.

Which reproductive specialists??? Certainly there has been nothing that I have seen to suggest this.

Well I've had 2 litters from my bitch with 12 months in between -well 363 days to be exact. :) And there is a big difference in her 6 months after a season and 6 months after a LITTER. 6 months after a litter you can still tell she's had one, 12 months after one you can not.

3 months after mine had had hers you would never have guessed.  It varies by breed and individual.  The Breed club will give the best guidance as per breed and the caring owner will know their individual, her history regarding litter size, ease of nursing etc.

Age and litter size has it's effects too.  My champion girl was showable 4 1/2 months after her first litter of four (this is a coated breed that drops all it's coat after a litter), yet she wasn't really showable until December/January after her litter of 7 last July, which was two years later towards the end of her sixth year of life.

Yes, I would put that under the etc. heading :)

I understand there is a reproductive ermm 'specialist' in the US that advocates this sort of reasoning of breeding 2 subsequent seasons...but ALL the breeders I know would NEVER do that! I've researched them a bit, but to me he doesn't have any credibility in his work or research, sorry!!!