You've obviously done well, and have a lovely boy, and this is more of a generalisation, but in addition to coping with raising a child it is important to remember that there is also a financial cost to bringing up a child, and I think few 16 year olds, or even 18 and 20 year olds would be in a position to maintain a home and a child.

Totally! :) Damians dad cleared off when he found out i was pregnant, but his now paying for his actions, literally! :D

My partner who im now engaged to, has brought Damian up since he was 1, his now 3 1/2 and will provide for both my kids and make sure as well as me that they never go without!

I agree with Jeremy Kyle when he says 'it takes a man to make a baby, but it takes a real man to bring one up'

And ive certainly got myself one of those :D :D

Well, sadly, my ex-husband has never had to pay towards his childrens upbringing... (he has managed to wriggle out of that), so I do understand  the financial (and other) struggle in bringing up kids on your own.  Having a 16 year old daughter, I cannot imagine her having a baby - actually, she is mature and sensible I'm sure she'd do a good job, but she hasn't even started her life yet.. thankfully all her focus atm is on trying to get into medical school :) so that'll keep her busy :), and having a 20 year old son who is struggling to balance the books at uni I dread to think how he would manage if he found himself having to support a mum and baby....  mind you, I do seem to have gone a bit off topic as this was about a 12 year old getting pregnant..

I am in a similar position, and my daughter was a nightmare from 13 to 15 truanting staying out all hours etc.  I couldn't do anything, found my hands were tied at all turns.  Police couldn't do anything.

I was at my wits end.  She came out of school with no exams (by time she had settled down to late to catch up), but had started Part time work after school and Saturdays, in her last year, and this was really good for her.  Yes it gave her the money to go out (which I refused to give her) but it also made her more responsible.

She has now been working for over 18 months, has a steady boyfreind (3 years) who has been a very steady influence on her.  He has always worked since he was old enough for a Paper round.

She definately does not want children for a long time, and is absolutely paranoid about getting pregnant, and takes a belt and braces approach to birth control.

My son is going through the horrible 15 year old stage, but he has to work for his own pocket money (paper round) as I can't afford to give him weekly, prefering to put a small sum away fro him each month in a high interest account.

I have/had savings accounts for both now that they can't draw, as my daughter in her bad phase emptied the savings I had taken years to save for her, though I made her pay it all back in.

>I do remember the fear factor.

I remember my mum telling me that if I ever brought shame on her house by getting pregnant I would be out the door, no question, final!  Never forgot that

Couldn't agree more!

I've had the "problem child" too.  Two have never given me any concerns at all (so far) but the other one made up for them.  This is why I asked at the top of this thread if it is all down to the parents.  How is it you have two children who take on board everything you say, take your advice, work hard at school, etc and one that goes against everything you say.  It's all very well having boundaries which we did have but once they have broken them all hell is let loose.

When one of mine was 15 she wanted to go out and she wasn't allowed.  I heard the door close and she had gone.  What would you have done?

People that haven't come up against this have no idea how impotent you feel. My middle one (of 5 ) was difficult from being 6 months old onwards .....and people find that hard to believe but it is true :)

Yep I hated it when mine was running wild and I was responsible and couldn't do anthing to stop ehr. She climbed out of windows, Police told me that they could only make sure she was safe but couldn't make her come home.  she was out for a couple of days at a time at one point and I could do nothing.

I had to attend a parenting course because of her truanting, she thought it hilarious. 

She told me recently that if she had thought they could have caned her at school she would not have taken the liberties she did with her teachers, she knew there were no consequences that mattered to her at the time.

I thnk with her she had no respect for adults at all, her father had come back into her life, and was a disapointment and she just went right off the rails.

As far as I was concerned I was being punished.  I was at my wits end with worry.  I didn't know where she was, who she was with or what she was doing.  She had two parents who loved her unconditionally, went to every parents' evening, I went to every school activity/play/assembly/fete etc.  None have been spoilt materialistically but school holidays revolved around the children making sure they were occupied with visiting friends, trips to farms, parks, swimming pools. They were all (son still is) involved in swimming clubs, gym clubs, judo/ju jitsu clubs, drama clubs.

So what makes a child rebel?  IMO it's the $64,000 question. I don't believe it is all down to the parents and if I had been punished by the law what benefit would that have been to my daughter, my other children, me and my future prospects?  Why is it always the mother that is highlighted in these cases?  Why isn't the father dragged back to take some responsibility? (not that my OH did shirk responsibility as he was as much at wits end as me)

There will always be other influences on a child though, particularly when they reach a more independent age.  I think if parents have done everything they could they should not feel guilty when other factors such as peer influence butts in.  However there are plenty of parents not even trying :)

I totally agree.  I think craigles is in a very good position to see that it isn't always the parents' fault when their children decide that they are going to do what they want.

I can understand that the pregnant 12 year old in the news doesn't appear to have model parent(s) but people shouldn't be too hasty in making judgements.  When I see parents like Vicky Pollards I want to know the whole story, not just her parents but her friends, school attitudes, supporting agencies etc.  I actually phoned my daughter's school, school nurse, GP, parentline and I got nowhere but more importantly I didn't know where else to get advice.  Before anyone mentions social services, I lived near a house that looked after youngsters and used to be shocked at how late at night they used to hang around the street corners.

> So what makes a child rebel?  IMO it's the $64,000 question

You'd make a fortune if you knew :D Seriously, it would be lovely if we knew :) There are so many factors in a child's life - some are very obvious (parental breakup, poverty, etc) - some not so obvious (position of child in family ie oldest, youngest etc, major crisis early in child's life that affects child's security despite stable home later on etc etc). Some children just end up as troubled adults, finding difficulty maintaining relationships, keeping jobs etc We all suffer knocks in life and how we deal with them can be something of a lottery :(

Daisy

Daisy, I couldn't agree with you more.  It's not as cut and dried as people think and for those that think it is they ought to thank their lucky stars it hasn't happened to them.

"I've had the "problem child" too.  Two have never given me any concerns at all (so far) but the other one made up for them.  This is why I asked at the top of this thread if it is all down to the parents. "

That's why I said in one of my early posts bring on Brat Camp UK!  We need something over here like that for parents who have done everyting they possibly could but still can't get through to their kids that their behaviour is totally unacceptable and will not be tollerated any more.  I wouldn't hesitate to whisk my son off to something like that if he ever turned into the "child from hell" (I dread to think that he ever would!).  Yes I would feel totally pathetic and like I should be able to have "full control" but like you and another poster say you can have several children most of which are "fine" and then there's one who goes against all that has been 'taught' to them and there aren't any answers as to why :rolleyes:

The Brat Camp type of experiences are based on rites of passage which we no longer have in our culture.  Many of the troubled young people of today are not equipped with the skills they need to forge their future and are plunged, ill equipped, into adulthood having lacked positive role models, discipline and common sense.  The misson statement for the college I work with is to help young people:

be in a safe environment

deal with and overcome the pain and anger they have from their past

experience success and positive reinforcement from supportive and caring staff over an extended period of time

learn to trust people with their feelings and thoughts and accept support

recover from mistakes and get back on track with support from staff

be challenged by a series of new experiences and environments to think and act in new and positive ways

work hard to achieve significant accomplishments.

Our young people have regular opportunities to try a Vision Quest or 'wilderness' experience where they do brat camp type of things.  The results are often startling and very touching.

My eldest son was excluded from school and was a nightmare for a while but now is my strongest advocate in maintaining firm appropriate boundaries for his younger brother.

you can have several children most of which are "fine" and then there's one who goes against all that has been 'taught' to them and there aren't any answers as to why

But each child is an individual and we don't often give them credit for that.  As mentioned before, I've had one excluded from school and one high achiever.  Their experiences, although similar, were personally very different - they are individuals.  Also as parents, we treat our children more differently than we realise.

IMO (humble) opinion there is a big difference between a 15 year old pushing the boundaries, and an 11 year old going out, getting drunk, having sex and getting pregnant, AND smoking- and her mother defending it! I don't know a teenager who hasn't pushed the boundaries - myself included - but I had sufficient sense of right/wrong drummed into me NOT to get myself in a load of trouble.

Why are you all so suprised about a young teen pregnancy, as if it didnt happen 50 years ago? Maybe not in one quite so young, but the 12 year olds today are far more advanced physically and mentally than they were 50 years ago, to almost equal a 17-18 year old of that time nowadays. There were many 'homes for unmarried mothers' where the unmarried mum was banished till the baby was born, (to say nothing of the workhouse and convents girls were sent to before those to have their babies in awful conditions) and adopted, very often without her true consent, and she was bought back home under a cloud, made to 'forget' the baby and carry on as if nothing had ever happened. She was made to feel great shame, and to feel she had let her family down in the worst possible way, while the male got away scott free! Or, maybe he wanted to be a part of his child, but was simply not allowed. neighbours would talk about 'that family' as if they had done the crime of the century! There were also many illegal backstreet abortions, causing god knows how much suffering. Yes, girls/women were afraid of the shame they would bring on their families, even in the 'enlightened' swinging 60's, so much so that they were prepared to pay for this mistake with their lives (sucide) or risk serious infections by abortion simply to avoid the awful conflict and disgrace to be found pregnant. So many got married because they were pregnant, often to unsuitable partners simply to avoid the shame and because the girls parents put presure on the boy and his parents. How many of these enforced families caused violent problems? Were moral standards higher years ago, when married women who's husbands were at war became pregnant to visiting soldiers? Lets not sound the 'moral judgement' horn too soon, and make out our parents and grandparents were any more moral than they could have been. it just wasnt spoken about as much then. Do we really want to go back to those times? I certainly hope not...

How does making a child, girl or boy, far to ashamed or scared to tell their parents they are pregnant help anyone? Yes, I agree that much needs to be done somehow to curb the rise in teenage sex and pregnancies, but I feel its not so much a rise but a lack of abortions and more media coverage that is making the public more aware of the situation, and the mums are chosing to keep the babies now rather than place them out to adoption. There is a lack of jobs now, causing more to seek benefits, and that is helping out young mums have a flat etc for their babies, and yes maybe in some cases having a baby is a means to an end rather than working, because of the money to be made. In days gone, that support was not there, so they were either supported by their families or adopted the baby out to have what they thought would be a better life.

I think sex education should start at the end of junior school, and continue into secondary school. The children need to know more today than we did, its a different world in many ways. As someone has already said, comics are not comics anymore, sexual practice is explained in a way that was only found in 'adult mags' when I was a girl. Girls clothes are sized down replicas of sexually provocative adult clothes, they wear more make-up than ever, and those that dont 'conform' to what the majority are wearing are bullied and teased to death at school and out of it, put a 12 yr old in ankle socks and her life will be made a misery. It must be hell trying to find a middle ground. The same for boys too, as I am more than aware having 2 myself. Every parent has to find a way of connecting with each of their kids, no two are the same, set guidelines and stick to them. And hope and pray that your child is not the one....trouble is, no matter how well you try, if they get in with a group that dont have your standards it can be has hard as hell to remain in control. banning and locking up can mean they just jump out the window, then what can you do? We live in a society that is more aware of their rights, in some ways that is a good thing, others it is not so good.

I don't think making a girl/woman feel shame for being pregnant is helping anyone, much less the girl. How many of you can honestly say that, had it not been for contraception, you would not have been 'caught' before marriage? How many can honestly say they didnt have sex before they were the 'legal' age? Or again before they married, and not with their husband/wife? and why feel ashamed of it? Its accepting that it can and does happen, and that much as you watch your kids, if they are going to do it they will, be that at 10pm or at 4.30pm when they are staying at a friends house....or walking home from school....if they are going to do it they will, the more they are threatened the more they are likely to rebel. keeping communication open, talking about the results of having a baby young and how it will affect their lives, talking about contraception, sex in a loving relationship, how its ok to say no, various diseases, al that discussed in an open manner has to help, not simply closing the door to discussion. Talking about how powerful the emotions are with sex, how its so easy to get carried away, especially after alcohol, that sex drive is powerful for both sexes. Letting them make the choice from an informed position if and when to have sex, take precautions, and giving them the will to want a life after school,to travel, work, have fun etc before settling down to kids may just help. letting them know just how life consuming having a baby is, all the hard work not just with the baby but the growing up child, how restricted their lives will be not just for a short time, but forever. i feel this would work better than just saying 'dont you dare'.  And, should the worst happen, screaming and shouting wont help, she needs support, be that to keep the baby, or not, if she feels she can talk and be listened to, then at an early stage any alternatives or decisions can be made. I firmly believe that, if a child is going to have sex, condoms should be made available, together with a chat about std's, and the moral ramifications. I would rather they have protected sex than unprotected sex, if they have got to the point where they are asking for protection its most likely in my opinion they are already active, but in any case its better to help prevent an unwanted pregnancy than to refuse protection on moral grounds. Yes, if it was my son or daughter i would be gutted if they were young or under age, and would hate the decision taken from me, but if they need help I would rather they had it, even though I wouldnt agree with what they were doing.

Yes, I think sex at 12 is far to young, never mind getting pregnant, but I cant stand on a moral fence and tut tut, nor can I totally blame the parents, nor expect social services to wave a magic wand and clear up the mess our society in general has become. Youth has no disipline, try as you might at home, the people they mix with can change the most well mannered child when in school. if your child attends the sort of school where the head couldnt care less if the child attends there or not, which passes on down the line, the child loses self respect and respect for teachers, which will carry over to no respect for law and order or the police, the whole structure can fall down, no matter how hard you try to correct it. Parenting these days is a struggle, in every way, and I really think that places are needed for kids as in good youth clubs, and something like national Service from 16 mixed in with higher education, so even the low achievers can be made to value something in thier lives. that in itself could give them some self respect, some motivation and life skills. A goal in life, rather than to just get pregnant or go on the dole, commit crime etc as maybe their parents did before them.

As far as sexual knowledge goes, the internet and mobile fones has opened up a whole new world for our children, and made sexual knowledge and behaviour more accessable (adults too, judging by some internet chat rooms etc) so as parents we need to be ahead of all that, and carefully monitor the net and fones we give our kids access too.

Who said parenting was easy? We can only do the best we can for our own, and try not to judge to harshly the ones that have kids that go off the rails, and hope those kids dont take ours with them.......can we really say, looking back, that life was better in every way? Society has certainly declined in my opinion, I dont think its simply lack of sexual morals but a decline in everyway, and thats the sad part.

I wouldnt want to be a teenager today.

>How many can honestly say they didnt have sex before they were the 'legal' age?

Me, for one!

Children already get an abundance of sexual education from schools, even practising putting condoms on cucumbers and bananas.  They are also well informed by schools about STDs.  I can talk to my children and always have done and certainly I am not afraid to talk about sex, drugs or anything else. Oh all right I was taken aback and stumped when 10 yr old daughter asked how homosexual men performed and did wriggle, but don't think that would have done her any harm.  I didn't even know about sex let alone homesexuality at 10.  It's not ignorance of sex or contraception that is getting girls pregnant.  There is something else that is encouraging girls to get pregnant and with the highest number of teenage pregnancies in Europe, whatever it is is very attractive indeed.

IMO it's not about shaming girls who get pregnant but discouraging them in the first place as it creates problems for them and the rest of us.

>How many can honestly say they didnt have sex before they were the 'legal' age?

Me, for another.  Even if I had not been fearful of the consequences I really didn't want to, I had other aims in life.  At 11 or 12 or even 14, 15 (the apparently acceptable age for it these days ;)) it would have been something as alien, to me, as walking down the highstreet naked.
Taken from JG's comments, rest of the post above too long to read :p

Me too :) Amongst the girls that I went to school with it was unusual to have sex under 18, let alone 16 :) There was the odd girl that had to get married (living with people was just not done then) - but most of us were keen to get good qualifications/jobs and then get married and have children in that order :D Mostly we did what our parents wished - if we did have sex before marriage, our parents would rather not know. Boyfriends were made to sleep on the sofa if they came to stay :D
Quite a few of my son's uni friends have got married or are about to get married. They are quite young (22/23)compared to a lot who are marrying at 30+ these days. The reason is that they are all committed Christians and don't believe in sex before marriage :)

Daisy

'The reason is that they are all committed Christians and don't believe in sex before marriage'

...and herein lies the answer to a lot of problems in today's society.

What do you mean by that???? The reasons that Christians don't have relationships before marriage is that God KNOWS the harm it does to people...the Commandments are there to protect you!! Not limit the choices you have! God knows that sleeping around and having multiple partners only increases the chances for unwanted pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases etc. If the 10 commandments were observed these days there would be less crime, lower murder rates, an end to sexually transmitted disease...including AIDS and a great deal more respect for people, their beliefs and their religions and finally authority!

And lets stone to death all who stray eh? I respect your religious beliefs, but sadly religion has caused more problems for some than enough. And which religion do we follow? why is it right for a priest to sexually mollest a child and be protected by the church? (If what the news and papers reported was in fact true) Why is it right to slap the wife about, but have your sins cleared in confession, only to do the same next week? Then confess again...and again...even to murder but the confession is private and the priest confessed to cannot divulge this information. yes, many things in it are good in christian religion if we were all to follow the same path, but there are far more religious beliefs in this country than christianity, so who is right and who is wrong?

Well, I'm Christian and Protestant so don't know how the Catholics manage to convince themselves it's ok to keep doing that sort of thing as long as you get absolution next week!! :D There are a lot of problems with Religion, I agree with you!! But having unenlightend or morally corrupt people hide behind the cloak of Religion isn't right, and should be dealt with accordingly, but at least it gives MORAL GROUNDING, which Society is so lacking today. I don't know all the answers, I don't know anyone that does! But I do know it's a lack of moral teaching from the get go...maybe not your own, but someone elses, which impacts on your children, a total lack of respect for Authority and it's just SO depressing it's untrue!!!

I think Christian values do make a good moral framework as does every other major religion that I can think of.  Of course there will always be those who are not really adhering to them such as repeatedly thinking themselves absolved when they have not really repented. 
That is not to say you have to be a believer of any faith to have a decent moral framework of your own but the general move away from religious guidance has not appeared to have been beneficial to this country in my opinion.

I believe I have the same or similar moral values as Christians although I am an Atheist.  It seems that you either adopt good vlues or not regardless of whether you brought up a Christian or not.  It is certainly true that being religious doesn't always mean being a good person.

I agree with you both, funnily enough lol...its just a shame with religion when you look into it (and have to say its only my kids that have made me do this) that there are bits you can hold and bits that are awful, whatever the religion. I don't know about other schools, but certainly the junior school mine went to was excellent in dealing with religion, for all different ones. Although Cof E, all the religious celebrations were given time and space too, with a very balanced view. Prayers were said, assemblies of a religious nature were held, sadly, this awful secondary school is not the same. There is no collective worship even though it is on the ciriculum but the head wont change even though OFSTED recommended it should be, Xmas, easter etc  is barely recognised, the carol service is out of school at a local church even though the school has a huge stage and seating, in fact many town plays, meetings etc are held there after school, space and seating is certainly not a problem. RE classes are a joke, its more along the line of personal development as far as I can tell from the boys. my youngest is quite religious, member of the church choir and being confirmed soon, and he is quite disgusted that religion is not taught in the same way as it was at junior school. I hope to have him ask me to move to another school, as i have already moved his elder brother. this school has awful violent problems, that the head will simply not accept as being so. he is a religious man, a member of a certain faith but i wont mention that as i feel it would be wrong to tarnish a group by his example alone.

Religious education at my children's jnr school was better too.  They learnt about all the major religions which I would think  and hope helps to teach diversity and differences.  Learning about all religions and not just Christianity helps to teach tolerance and understanding IMO

newfiedreams - if your response is aimed at my post you have totally misunderstood my stance, or perhaps I didn't word things very well.

I completely agree with the Christian viewpoint that sex outside of marriage is a sin in God's eyes.

Ahh I see, sorry...I thought you were having a go....LOL apologies and well done!! :D :D :D

I certainly respect the view that to have sex outside marriage is considered a sin in the eyes of God, I may not feel that way myself, but I certainly respect the views of those that do. I just feel it is unfair to name call those that don't hold this belief because it differs with christian beliefs. I dont believe that children having sex is good, for thei health or moral welfare, nor do I believe it is right to have sex with others when you are married, or in a committed relationship. If the relationship has got to the state where you no longer feel able to commit to that relationship you should leave first, set up a new home for yourself before you start over with a new partner/sexual relationship/one night stand. Affairs cause a great deal of hurt to the other, the kids if any, so many get hurt, the lies and deception, thats what I cant stand. I think that does more damage than adult singles having sexual fun together.

It's not just a Christian belief - I'm trying to think of any religion where sex outside of marriage is encouraged ... it seems to be a secular fashion, not religious.

IMO sex outside marriage isn't the problem but promiscuity, unwanted pregnancies and people not being able to financially support their offspring and/or who are not emotionally mature enough to raise a child.  Being married doesn't necessarily mean these things will be secured.  Before the 'swinging' 60s men were having their cake and eating it, it was just that women weren't so marriage wasn't the be all and end all even in those days.

Problem does seem to stem from sexual liberation of women but I don't think this is necessarily tied to marriage.

Promiscuity certainly seems to be more common outside marriage than within it - after all, how many times do people give 'not wanting to be tied down' as a reason for not marrying?

It's a difficult question to answer because we really don't know if promiscuity is more common outside marriage than within it.  How often is adultery cited as reason for divorce and the divorce rate is increasing all the time?  Marriage isn't the answer anymore because the values behind it have been lost. Marriage is too easy to enter and abandon.  This does mean that women no longer have to be kept trapped in loveless and/or violent relationships but it also means that couples are not longer prepared to work out serious problems and seem to think that the slightest problem means that the marriage won't work and so move on.

>it also means that couples are not longer prepared to work out serious problems and seem to think that the slightest problem means that the marriage won't work and so move on.

Sadly this is yet another symptom of the selfish 'me, me, me' society which must 'have it NOW' we've sunk into; credit card debt (again, have it NOW, not save for it) and running away at the prospect of (horrors!) having to actually compromise.

However, the majority of divorced people remarry (the triumph of hope over experience!) and still, albeit hanging on by the fingernails, more marriages succeed than fail. :)

> after all, how many times do people give 'not wanting to be tied down' as a reason for not marrying?

Unfortunately, this reluctance doesn't seem to go as far as having children :( :(

Daisy

Yes, at that age all I wanted to do was go horse riding and work at the stables. Boys couldn't have been further from my mind because I had a LIFE and a hobby! And therein lies the problem these days - children are growing up too fast and don't have enough to do!

I didn't have s*x before the age of 16, nope :)

Nor did I, unless you count rape as sex???

You were raped newfie?

Afraid so...do you know this is the first time I actually told anyone about it?? I must be bl***y mad HUH??? Unfortunatley alcohol was involved too...only a couple of drinks of 'harmless' cider :rolleyes: but enough for me to drop my guard and trust someone I shouldn't have! Didn't even tell my parents as I was SO scared of my Dad, haven't spoken to him since I was 17, that's how much he scared me LOL But a lesson I have never even forgotten and still don't like to be merrily drunk even...hate the thought of losing control...like Wine though! the odd glass or 2 or 3 is ok! LOL Ahh well, I'd love to see the bloke now...what I wouldn't do to him huh? All the best, Dawn

No newfie, you are not mad, but very brave. I understand how you feel, as in really, and keeping it inside for so long was very hard. Please find the courage to speak to those close to you now, let out all the pain this damned person did to you. Love xxx

Thanks, yes well, a hard lesson to learn huh?? But thanks again!

Dawn just because you had a couple of glasses of cider doesn't mean it was anyway your fault ;)

No man or woman has a right to have sex unless the other party is in full consent and is aware of what is happening :)

I was attacked by a so called friend after we had had a couple of drinks but luckily I managed to fight him of just in time :)

I know how much it affected me so do understand what you went through :)

If you ever need to talk about it then feel free to PM me :)

Take Care

Lucy
xx

Thanks Lucy XX

I accept it now, as you have to get over it otherwise it rules your life and you end up like some people I know, the've been dealt a bum deal, as bitter and twisted. No one knows what they go through blah blah blah!! You know the type??!! I prefer to get on, have fun, life is too short for bitterness (that doesn't stop me wanting to kick him in the nuts if I ever saw him again you understand!!!....ladys perogative for revenge me thinks!? :D)

Thats the attitude Excatly how I dealt with it although took me a few years to realise that ;)

Lucy
xx