Hi All

I have just read the many posts on here about the booster vaccinations, i too have been in a very awkward position as my little westie Hamish suffers from atopic dermatitus and has been very poorly over the past year with his skin and on top of this he has staphlycoccus and malasezzia infestations aswell, he was on steroids and antibiotics for his skin which we have now managed to stop the steroids and antibiotics and the malasezzia is under control by regularly bathing him in malaseb although if he goes over the week for his bath he tends to start to smell again, he is controlled with the atopica drug which he has every day and he has done marvellously well on this medication i cannot believe the difference in him, he has got numerous allergies including food allergies which he has now been put onto naturediet lamb and rice and is again getting on well on this diet. He was due his booster jabs at the end of April and my vet said he must come off of the atopica for at least 2 weeks either side of the booster as it will make the booster less affective, so i stopped the drug but after 5 days Hamish was beginning to bite and scratch again, i was frightened his skin would deteriorate quickly and that he would be back to how he was last year so decided to put him straight back onto the Atopica again, touch wood within 3 days of the drug back in his system the itching and biting stopped and he was a happier dog again!!
My vet said that he must have the booster for the risk of the diseases he can get, but i have heard such bad reports of the reactions to booster with dogs with compromised immune systems like Hamish's that i decided for now at least to look into the vaccinations a bit more, i am just very worried that he may deteriorate after the jab and i would hate for him to end up like he was last year as we thought at one point we were going to lose him as he was not responding to any treatment the vet was giving him.
It is such an awkward position to be in as you only want the best for your bundles of joy and he is so much happier now, he has always been boostered since a puppy and has had his 2 adult booster since, he is nearly 3 1/2 years old so he must have some build up left in his system but i know this will weaken in time.
Are there any other owners out there who's dogs are on Atopica for severe allergies that booster their dogs or have you also opted to not booster incase they have an adverse reaction?

Helen and Hamish

I'm certainly no expert, but I thought that a dog that was about to undergo vaccination should be in good health, i.e. not ill or having treatment for an illness.

So IF that's the case, I'd have thought that a dog with a chronic health problem requiring ongoing treatment, should not be vaccinated.

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Novartis_Animal_Health_UK_Ltd/Atopica/-27792.html

this link gives more info, but personally I'd not vax at all.

Dawn R.

Your vet is right, so is Dawn.

>>Do not use in cases of hypersensitivity to cyclosporine or one of the excipients.

Do not use in dogs less than 6 months of age or less than 2 kg in weight.
Do not use in cases with a history of malignant disorders or progressive malignant disorders.
Do not vaccinate with a live vaccine during treatment or within a 2-week interval before or after treatment.<<

The above was taken from the link below.

http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Novartis_Animal_Health_UK_Ltd/Atopica/-27792.html

Besides, he won`t need a booster for the 3 major diseases till at least 3yrs after his last vax as they give immunity for at least 3yrs

The trouble is the protocols assume everyone is following them ie all healthy dogs are vaccinated.
I do feel for you Helen, you are in a real dilemma.  Personally I would discuss this with your vet and decide between you as he will be best placed to assess the risk of disease in your area and whether the herd effect is likely to protect Hamish, hopefully it will be.

Thing is Isabel, her vet has already told her the dog can`t be vaxed while its on atopic & the manufacturers are very clear

>>Do not vaccinate with a live vaccine during treatment or within a 2-week interval before or after treatment.<<

Vax data is very clear as well   Only healthy dogs should be vaccinated

A dog suffering with such a severe allergy can in anybody`s view be classed as healthy.

could this not be a good situation for titre testing to be done?
i have never done it but there is alot about it on the forum at the moment
http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/89188.html

just a thought.

It could Anna but it doesn`t alter the fact this little dog has a severe allergy & is quite poorly with it , obviously not healthy so therefore the question of vaxing him is immaterial. :)

i wasn't questioning that fact :) vaxinations should always be given when the dog/cat is healthy (just like it is in humans). if the levels of immunity were up to scratch then the owner would not need to worry about vacinations. however if they were found to be low then the question is do you risk giving the vac of risk the desises and not vax. i have to say i wouldn't like to be in this situation.
anna

As with all these things the protocols assume all are complying and therefore a good herd effect will be prevelent.  In some areas we cannot rely on that, making the risks rather different. Helen's vet is best placed to help her balance them as best they can, I doubt there is a black and white answer.  He is clearly well aquainted with the issues of the Atopica, as you say, so will surely be taking that into account with his advise.

Hi

Thanks for all your replies, my vet feels very strongly that Hamish should have the booster every year to protect against these diseases, but i am looking at what is best for my little boy and i don't want him to fall ill again, i have read such bad reports against these booster in dogs with skin disorders that i am weighing more on the side of not vaccinating than having him done, it is me that has to nurse him through when he is poorly and watch him scratching and biting himself to bits, i know my vet wants whats best for him and he said that he has seen the bad affects these diseases have on dogs, even killing them, but i need to weigh up whats best for Hamish.
I know that the atopica drug can cause serious side effects long term but i have no option as it is only this drug that is keeping his condition at bay at the moment and he is thriving whilst on it, he does not itch or scratch at all and his fur has grown back lovely, my only problem that i still have with him is this malassezia which effects the skin and makes him smell rank if not bathed every week in malaseb, the vet said to try and make him go 2 weeks but the smell gets quite intense if not done each week and we are the ones that then have to put up with the smell so there is no way at the moment he can go 2 weeks without being bathed, i know westies should not be bathed that often but if it means my dog smells nice and he is more happier in himself then i am going to continue to bath him every weekend!!
I know vets go by the guidelines with these booster jabs but for dogs that are not healthy it makes the owners more weary about having them done incase there health problems worsen, my vet does not seem to be willing to budge on the importance of having these jabs done so we may have to agree to disagree on this because i feel strongly that there is a possibility that having him boostered may worsen his symptoms.
Thanks for all your views on this matter i just wondered what other people thought on here about the situation, and if there were any owners that had dogs on atopica as to what they did about boostering.

Helen and Hamish

Helen what is your vet vaxing every year for, the 3 major diseases are covered fro 3 yrs so yearly isn`t needed anyway

What is a major disease? Or more importantly what isn't?
Some diseases still require annual boosters under the manufacturers recommendations.  I think you know that Christine ;)

Please can we lay off the sniping in this thread :( It does get incredibly tedious for people attempting to read the threads when you two are constantly sparring with each other and even though I am very interested in these type of topics I just tune out when I see where it is heading :(

I assume the three mentioned are Parvo, Distemper and Adenovirus - it is well documented that certain manufacturers have stated that their vaccinations for these diseases provide 3 years immunity.

I would have thought the 'big three' are Distemper, Hepatitis and Parainfluenza.

Appologies if you think that is snipey.  I think most of it is intended as lighteness of tone but I suppose we are each entitled to our own perception.  Like you say you can skip over those bits if you wish.
Yes some diseases only require boosters against 3 years but you are still recommended by the manufacturers and consequently by the British Veterinary Associations policy to attend your vet every year and have a booster for parainfluenza and leptospirosis.  These are also serious diseases that can kill.

Oh no don't get me wrong - I think both you and Christine provide some very valuable information. I just feel that it gets lost with all the 'back and forth' comments that go on.

I fully understand that Lepto and Parainfluenza are serious diseases and that they are required to be given yearly (as per the manufacturers policy) but when talking about ones that provide 3 year immunity I think it is fairly safe to assume that people are talking about Parvo, Distemper and Adeno.

The point wasn't really what they were. It's the fact that just because some are only required three yearly doesn't mean none are required annually :)  Vaccination in general is an annual affair :)

"The point wasn't really what they were. It's the fact that just because some are only required three yearly doesn't mean none are required annually :-)  Vaccination in general is an annual affair :-)"

Quite true! I asked the Vet about boosters when I took our little girl on Saturday as I was concerned about them after reading 'horror stories' on the net :rolleyes:  Glad to say my mind has been put at rest because our practise gives whats called "half boosters" and "full boosters" - "full boosters" every 3 years and "half boosters" every 12 months in between (so thats 10-12wks old puppy jabs, 1yr full, 2yrs half, 3yrs half, 4yrs full, 5yrs half, 6yrs half, etc). The "half boosters" consist of Lepto and Parainfluenza and the others are given every 3 years :)

What an excellent practice. :) :)

Yeah I'm glad they do it 'properly' cos I was going to insist on them doing it that way for our little girl anyway :)

I think you won't have to insist :) the vast majority of vets are following this regime, in fact my vets has a chart in her consulting room detailing the regime.  I think what JG meant was what an excellent vet to label it in terms that people will appreciate that vaccinations are continuing annually.

"I think what JG meant was what an excellent vet to label it in terms that people will appreciate that vaccinations are continuing annually."

But some of the vaccines have to be given annually anyway   I just don't quite get what you mean...

Presumably it will cost less for the "half boosters" than it will the "full boosters" - yes/no?

I'm not sure we are on the right wavelength here :) perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning of "properly" then? :)
Yes I expect it would be a bit cheaper but a lot of the fee is consulation, health check, admininstering the vaccine and record keeping, so maybe not a lot of difference.

"I'm not sure we are on the right wavelength here :-) perhaps I am misunderstanding your meaning of "properly" then? :-)"

With our previous dogs (last one died summer 2004) the vets did "full boosters" every year so this is what I was thinking was still generally done you see.  My meaning of the term "properly" was that they are now following the manufacturers advice and doing "half boosters" in between the 3 yearly "full boosters" :)

The 'half boosters' will be marginally cheaper - maybe a couple of pounds - than the full boosters because only one vial of vaccine is used instead of two. However the consultation fee will be just the same.

"The 'half boosters' will be marginally cheaper - maybe a couple of pounds - than the full boosters because only one vial of vaccine is used instead of two. However the consultation fee will be just the same."

Yeah thats what I was thinking :)

In this case Helen I would feel it is worth doing the titre tests and then discussing the results with your vet if Hamish's immunity is such that he doesnt need to be vaccinated  at preasent then you will be happier knowing it isnt a great risk not to have him vaccinated. If his immunity levels are not sufficient then you will also be able to weigh up the risks you take when you take him out and about or weather you will risk vaccination.

Helen,

I would do as Satincollie suggested and have him titre tested. You can then decide whether or not he needs vaccinating and if he does, you can always have them done individually over a period of time (though Distemper would need to be given with one of the others if it was required). One of mine was ill and our vets waited until they had recovered before administering their injections :)

Hi Helen, going back to your first posts here

>>he has always been boostered since a puppy and has had his 2 adult booster since, he is nearly 3 1/2 years old <<<

The only 2 things he mayneed booster for are Lepto & Para-influenza, you can not titre for those 2 & he doesn`t need it for the other 3 as the manufacturers themselves say they only need doing every3yrs, not yearly.

For the posters who are recommending you titre, can I ask why?

Going by what you said above I`m assuming he`s been vaxed for everything up till 12mths ago, mabe you could look in his card & let us know exactly what vaxed he had last year please :)

For the posters who are recommending you titre, can I ask why?

I would imagine for the poster's own peace of mind and something to counter the vet's insistence with Christine, although as you say it won't help with lepto and parainfluenza.

Are there any manufacturers of combined vaccine for parvo, distemper and hepatitis who still recommend yearly boosters in the UK for those illnesses?

Yes can see that A but from what I can see he`s been vax yearly up till now

No, none Annie

My dog has had his puppy vaccinations and that is all he will be getting - we have never boostered dogs in our family and we have never had to kennel them.  Personally I would not have Hamish boostered at all in his state of health and just carry on with the Atopica.

He may have had a vaccination yearly up to now Christine but if the vets are the same as mine they don't give everything yearly they check the  dogs records to see what they are due so without looking at Hamish's card there is no saying when he last had which vax. Edited to add this has been the case at my vets for at least the last 2 years.
Yes it was also for his owners peace of mind so as to discuss the vaccinations with full knowledge of his immunity and the risks in his area.

Hello Helen - and everyone else on the forums,

I've been reading the forums and finding them very helpful as we currently have an 11 week old puppy.
I was prompted to join the forum when I read this thread.

We had a toy poodle who had dermatitis all her life, and was allergic to a housedust mite. As a result she was always on a low dose steroid (due to her being small) and had frequent courses of antibiotics.

Almost two years ago, our miniature poodle died, and last July, feeling more protective towards the remaining little one, mentioned to the vet that she hadn't had a booster for a couple of years. The vet immediately gave her one. At that point, she'd got over losing her best pal the previous year, and was quite fit & happy.
We noticed by late summer that she'd stopped jumping onto chairs and by the end of the year was much quieter and less likely to run upstairs. Also her skin had become worse. One unusually fine February day, we took her for a walk and she kept stopping - we encouraged her to keep going, and after a while she stopped completely. I noticed her ribs heaving and picked her up and she collapsed onto my shoulder.
We took her to the vet late that night as her breathing got very rapid. Blood tests and x-ray showed an enlarged heart and a red cell count of only 15.
The only thing we could think of as being the cause of problems was that she'd been spayed 2 months after her booster, but the vet said it wouldn't cause such problems.
Despite much and varied medications, and a very brave fight, she died in our bedroom very early one morning in March after a really bad night.

Some weeks later, when looking for info on standard poodles, I stumbled on some information that led to me reading, amongst other things, sections of vet manuals etc and found the following reasons for not administering vaccinations:
if the dog is genetically defective
if there is something wrong with the dog's diet
if the dog was unhealthy when vaccinated
if the dog is stressed at time of injection
if the dog's immune system is incompetent
if the dog is exposed to a virus shortly after vaccination
if the dog is taking immune suppressant drugs such as steroids
if the vet stores and handles the vaccine inappropriately
if the dog is incubating disease at the time of vaccination
I also saw mentioned in the same context, skin diseases and use of antibiotics.

To me, this was devastating as I had not known any of this nor the controversy over vaccinations and boosters. Our dog was never 100% healthy due to the skin disease and associated bacterial infections, and due to the medication she was taking continuously, her immune system would definitely have been suppressed/compromised.

We aren't on a witch hunt over this - our little dog died, and we need to get over that and move on, as it's been extremely painful for us, especially since we realised that in trying to prevent her catching diseases, the booster quite probably caused her to die. She was only just 7 years old.

Our new puppy had the first of two vaccinations two weeks ago, and once the second has been given next week, she will not be given any boosters unless there is a particular reason to do so. We have made up our minds on that.

Obviously, this is just our experiences, and subsequently, our decision regarding boosters in the future. Although our dog did not (I think) take Atopica, I though it worth relating what had happened to us.

Hi

Just had a look on his vet card and the vaccine he had on 21/4/04 was Nobivac DHPPi +L and on 26/4/05 he had Nobivac Pi + L, not sure what these are but perhaps you may know more.

Thanks again to you all for your views on this.

Helen and Hamish

DHPPi+L is for Distemper, Hepatitis, Parvovirus, Parainfluenza and Leptospirosis. Pi + L is for Parainfluenza and Leptospirosis.

Pi + L need annual boosting - in a healthy dog I'd boost the others as well as even 30 years ago (I hoard my dogs' vax cards!) the manufacturers advised that, although the first course should provide lifelong immunity (so what's changed that now they say 3 years?) immunity can wane in the first 2 years so boosting all is advised. However Hamish is a special case with his problems - this is something you need to discuss with your vet.

>>so what's changed that now they say 3 years?) <<

Nothings changed with the duration of immunity, it still gives lifelong immunity to the 3 major ones J/G.

What changed is it was seen as a money maker having dogs get vaxed every year

We don't do PI at all, in fact the vet was saying risk is low and there was talk of dropping it as a core vaccine.  The rest are titre tested for bar Lepto.  They were low for Hep last year but my vet wasn't worried about that one either. 

Personally I would not vaccinate an immune compromised dog.  But that only my opinion and of course everyone has to make these decisions for themselves.

Good luck Hamish whatever you decide.  I can fully appreciate your dilemma.  Do what your heart tells you to do. 

Can totally agree with Spender on this - I can't foresee a reason to vaccinate an immune compromised dog and frankly wouldn't be at all happy with my vet in such a situation if I owned such a dog and he were pro vacs.

It is a dilemma, but not IMO an insurmountable one.  I hope you manage to reach a decision with a clear head - not easy I'm sure, so good luck!

I wish you and Hamish well.  regards, Teri :)

  

Agree with Teri & Spender.

Heres a link about titres & a new testing kit that vets can do at their own clinic. Its only recently out in USA so doubt very much its in UK yet, but anyone interested could print it out & take it to their vets :)

http://www.canine-epilepsy-guardian-angels.com/titer_test.htm

Hi All

Thanks to everyone that posted about this topic it was nice to hear what other people thought on the matter. I have thought long and hard about this and have decided that Hamish will NOT be having his boosters as i have got to put his health first and i feel it is not worth risking making him bad again, he is at the moment a lot better and i do not want to risk him going back to being unhappy and in discomfort again he means the world to me and is such a lovely little chap that i feel i am making the right decision.

Many thanks to you all
Helen and Hamish

Hi Helen,

I think you've made the right choice :)  Sometimes it's a tricky judgement call but IMO, for the sake of Hamish in view of his issues, this one is more straightforward and a good call on your part.

Very best wishes to you both,
Teri :)

Having just had a letter from virbac (drug company for vaccines) regarding the death of my 3 year old dog after annual booster.  They pointed out to me that they advise boosters every 3 years and say in a perfect world titre testing would be done each year to check for antibodies!!!  Definitely titre test!!!
Maria