Can someone please tell me if I ask my vet to titre test my dogs before vaccinating, will he have everything there to do it?  Will he test for every disease normal immunizations cover or what ones do you reccomend?
How Much does it cost approximatly?
How long till i get the results?.  If it shows that they are not covered then to vaccinate will not cause them to have auto immune problems will it?

Hiya :)

Can someone please tell me if I ask my vet to titre test my dogs before vaccinating, will he have everything there to do it?

No, he has to draw blood from the dogs then send it a laboratory for them to do the testing.

Will he test for every disease normal immunizations cover or what ones do you reccomend?

The normal ones to test for are Parvo, Distemper & Adno. Titres for Lepto can`t be done.

Costs will vary from lab to lab & then your vet will charge you for taking & sending bloods. Results should be within a wk.

I`m sorry Bev, but no one can tell you they won`t cause an adverse reaction :(

Do you mean the Titre test could cause an adverse reaction or just the vaccinations?

No the titres can`t cause any reactions, its just like taking blood from us for a blood test :)

There is no guarantee vax won`t cause a reaction.

Must say before someone else does, reactions are *thought* not to occur often

They may be *Thought* not to occur often, but the only two dogs I have religiously vaccinated every year in my 30 odd years of owning dogs died of Auto immune disease at age 4 yrs and the other just after her 7th birthday after battling for over a year.  I never want to go through that again or put a dog through it.
My dilemma is I now live in a built up area with quite a few loose dogs around, but one of my dogs also has allergic reactions to lots of different foods including marrow in a marrow bone that amazed me.
He is now 3 weeks overdue his first booster and my other pup will be due hers in 2 months time.  So i really am not sure what to do for the best.

This study demonstrates how very unlikey a reaction would be although of course, individuals, particulary if they are known to have allergies, will vary.  The best person to discuss your individual dogs treatment is your vet, who will have full access to it's medical history and whether the particular allergies are relevent to this issue.
It's a worry to anybody, especially if you have suffered problems in the past but like you say, the diseases that they protect against are also a very serious concern and some of us have lost dogs in that way too. I hope your vet can help you come to a decision and that it works out well for you.

I have just received the booster reminder from my vet for my two dogs and he is suggesting that we might like to titre test instead of routinely giving the vaccinations (this is a general pre-printed reminder not a specific letter to us). 

When I took them last year he mentioned that he was looking into with a view to recommending it but at that time he wasn't 100% sure as he was awaiting some more research findings but he has obviously decided it's now worth pursuing.  I shall discuss it with him in more detail when I get there but I may be going down this route from now on.

Andrea

They sound like a rather good vet :) I had mine titre tested last time but it was the first time my vets have ever done a titre test.

Bevb - I understand your concerns. I own a breed that is documented to have problems with Auto Immune diseases and so am very careful with a vaccination regime. What I have done is give them their puppy jabs and then their first booster a year later. Now I titre test and check their levels. I had my bitch done several months ago and she came back with high immunity against Parvo and Adeno, but low against Distemper. This may have been because she had not been exposed to the virus recently and thus had given a false negative reading, however based on that information I did get her vaccinated again (apparently you can't get single doses of Distemper? Parvo and Adeno you can but not Distemper - does anyone know of a manufacturer who produces Distemper on its own?). It took a week for the results to come back :)

It cost approximately £30 for the titre test to be done (sent to a lab and processed) and also the vets consultation fee on top of that.

HTH

Schering-Plough do a Galaxy D single distemper vax I/C but I can`t find them in UK I also think they`re used for wild animals, not sure tho so you`d be best ringing the manufacturers or the labs that do titre testing to find out where you can get them. Or you can ask your vet to enquire but sometimes they don`t want to :rolleyes:

Just don`t understand why single shots of distemper are so hard to obtain in UK when you can get them no prob in USA

Possibly because like MMR, combination shots are the way people in authority want us to go?  Also, it may be that the vets have to buy single shots in bulk and don't have the demand to justify that?

You`re probably right Annie and people aren`t aware about single vax either ;)

Just had a letter from Virbac (vaccine manufacturers) stating that in a perfect world titre testing should be done each year!  Straight from the horses mouth - can't get better advice than that!
Maria 

In your other post you said they recommended 3 yr boosters. Are they suggesting you titre test 1st and 2nd anniversary as well?  I would be interested to see just how they worded it.

Yes, the insructions on the vaccines say every 3 years and the animal should be in perfect health.
But, the letter I received from them today clearly states that in a perfect world titre testing would be offered each year to check for antibodies.  You'll be able to see the whole of the letter Isabel on my website which is www.spangler.co.uk and it will be going live in approx 2 weeks - so not long to wait now!
Maria
 

Titre tests are offered each year, anyone can have their vet do them. 
Are they saying we should titre in addition to their recommended 3 yr booster ie possibly booster more often or do it annually instead of the 3 yr booster regime and did they say how you could be sure the levels have not dropped to below safe cover sometime between anniversary 3 and 4.
I doubt I will remember to look on your web site in two weeks, Admin will not allow you to post it anyway, could you not give us the relevent wording.

I wonder how long it will be before kennels (and/or their insurers) start accepting titre tests and stop insisting on up to date vaccination certificates?{sigh}

That depends on their licencing council, not them.

My kennels claim it's because of their insurers.

They used to be fairly relaxed about it, but last year insisted on seeing the certificates and noting all the details, date, any number, manufacturer and vet's name etc.

They told me that their insurance company had issued a warning that in the event of ANY claim, they would be required to prove that they had checked that valid vaccination certificates were in force and that they had to record all the details so that they could be verified, and that failure to do so would nullify the insurance. In my mad panic to find another kennels at short notice, several of them told me the same story.

I had to go and get Django vaccinated in the end.

Because they can't get insurance if they haven't got a licence from the council! ;) And the council requirements are that evidence of up-to-date vaccination is needed.

Boarding kennels & insurers have to accept what the manufacturers say.

>>To avoid confusion in the future, Intervet has issued veterinary surgeons using Intervet vaccines with supplements to the vaccination certificate that can be used to indicate more clearly when the next vaccination is due. If you have not seen one of these supplements, or would like further information, please contact your local veterinary surgeon or view the extended duration of immunity section on this website.

For the sake of clarity, all vaccination certificates supplied by Intervet to vets now include a 'protected until' date for each vaccine. This is the date you should check when determining whether the pet is fully protected.<<

What are boarding kennels or insurers or anyone else looking for?  That the dog has had sufficient vaccinations to provide sufficient immunity.

Logically, this is not sufficient as, it is only dogs that are titre tested that have any PROOF of immunity.

Animals, and humans, can be inoculated against loads of stuff, but it does not always "take" so in actual fact you could be walking around thinking that you are covered when you are not.

The only vaccination that requires titre testing is the rabies one for the pet passport scheme, hence this is the only one that can give a definite answer if your dog is covered.

Once your dog is titre tested all that is required is an official letter by the vet to say that your dog HAS been vaccinated and does not require further vaccination AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, as the titre level is sufficient.

The same should be the case with insurers.

The trouble is of course that because are not legally obliged to confirm that the dog in question is the correct one ie via tattoo or microchip there is a built in flaw to the system.

Quite! I was so desperate I seriously considered trying to borrow a vax certificate to show. ;-o

MMR I thought everybody was aware that this had been discredited, well and truly, infact didn't Wakefield say he regretted it had been made public shortly after this?

MMR itself hasn't been discredited, Isabel; but the fears about it have been well and truly laid to rest. :)

Picky, picky :D Yes that is what I meant

Isabel, I wasn't commenting on the rights or wrongs of multi vaccines. , purely on the availability of single vaccines for those that wanted to use them.

Ah! I see   The comment about what the authorities wanted threw me I thought you meant something sinister :)

Well, if that really is the case I'll have yet another thing to berate the council about!

There was considerable consistency in what I was told though, by kennels in several different council areas. They all said that it was a requirement of their insurance and that insurance companies had really tightened up on it.

I have some experience of local authority licensing and regulatory matters, and usually they don't specify any details about insurance other than that you must have it and occasionally the amount of cover you must have.

Many thanks Christine :)

My vet searched through their files for the vaccinations they could acquire and single Distemper was the only one that they couldn't get hold of (they were more than willing to get a single dose of Parvo or Adeno should it have been required, but it wasn't). Her result for Distemper came back as CDV >= 40 which is within the range they recommend as requiring a booster. I debated whether or not to give her the booster but decided to in the end. I will certainly make enquires with the labs that do the titre testing and see whether or not it is possible to get single Distemper from anywhere as it may be necessary again in the future.

Thanks once again.

Nice of your vet to do that, my vet managed to get hold of the single vax over here after asking around but it was a few yrs ago :)

As I said, I`m sure I`ve read of the canine distemper vax being used for wild animals in the UK, so they must be around somewhere

here you go  >>>At present the only available live vaccines are attenuated Canine Distemper Virus (CDV) strains (to protect dogs from distemper) which are likely to provide effective cross-protection to seals.<<<

You could also ask about the measles vax being used instead of the distemper one if its not available. 

Thats good news indeed, looks like you`ve got a good vet there Andi :)

Did you find my Pm Bev?

Whoops just found it Thankyou Val very helpful and appreciated.

Bev

With Harry having caught and killed a rat in our garden the other day (clever boy!), when there'd been no trace of rat activity, there's no way I'm letting any of mine go without an annual lepto booster at the very least.

Lepto vaccination don't last for a year JG only 8 months at tops :(

That's better than no cover at all!  I also try to manipulate boostering time, over a couple of years, towards the spring so cover is extended through the summer breeding months when there are more rats about.

Better than nothing! Maybe they ought to have it twice a year instead of just once. I'll ask the vet.

& of course the vaccine may not cover the Lepto strain the rats might carry :(

This is from a speech given by Dr Hal Thompson re lepto

Antibody levels were a reasonably reliable measure of protection against most of the components in a canine multivalent vaccine but were of questionable value in determining protection against leptospirosis. He pointed out that antibody levels against this pathogen declined very sharply and if serology were the only criterion being used to evaluate protection, then booster vaccinations every three months would appear to be necessary.
Dr Thompson also queried the choice of leptospira serovars used by vaccine manufacturers. Current products confer protection against L. canicola and L. ictero but having carried out post-mortem examinations of every dog that has died over the past 10 years at practices in the Clydebank area of Glasgow, he said he had not seen an incident of L. canicola. He suggested that UK vaccine manufacturers should follow their American counterparts in switching to alternative serovars such as bratislava or grippotyphosa.


So three monthly boosters & a different vaccine appear to be required & of course the Lepto vaccine is the one that has the greatest numbers of reactions too Makes you think again

>post-mortem examinations of every dog that has died over the past 10 years at practices in the Clydebank area of Glasgow

Every dog that died? or every dog that died of Leptosprosis?  How many dogs are actually involved in this study then?
It is also unclear how many were found to have L. ictero presumably the remainder so why switch to the cover that the Americans regard as appropriate to them?
As I have often said to Christine :) the accademic process considers the findings of all the data submitted by everyone involved in studying any particular subject and the profession will devise guidelines that the majority regard as appropriate.
Meantime I will continue to avail myself of the little protection I can ;)

I`m sure Mr Thompson is very clear of his facts before he puts it into print.

I'm sure he was, but he's not sharing them in that piece :).

>Makes you think again

About what? About the fact that vets might not be encouraging us to have our loved dogs vaccinated enough? I agree, that's startling! What's certain is that I'm not going to let them go without vaccine against any type of lepto. :)

Well the UK Lepto vaccine killed our Cavalier that is a scientific fact & despite other similar cases The vaccine companies do nothing to research the reasons that this happens & deny scientific facts

BTW it was all the dogs that died from Lepto(according to my forward thinking vet of some 20+ years experience before you query this)

>The vaccine companies do nothing to research the reasons that this happens

I'm sure they do :)
Remember it is very unusual in the accademic world to present finding to the general public it is more usual, by far, to publish only within the profession via their journals.  I often wonder at the reasons of those that do opt to go to the general public
I doubt they had all the dogs that died from Lepto.  Not everyone would have sent their dog for examination, not everyone in the Clydebank would have seen a vet  
We still don't know how many dogs we are talking about but we do know we are talking about one small area of the country, hopefully the manufacturers ongoing research will be national.
Meantime I will continue with the recommended regime as at least this provides cover for a good part of the year.

To strains of Lepto they do not run the risk of encountering ?

Why shouldn't the vets in the area send samples from all the dogs that died they had access too ? Not all vets are closed minded & actually want to find out things that the vaccine companies don't tell them

BTW no research is currently being carried out by the vaccine companies as there is no such thing as adverse reactions to vaccines my pathologist friend has that in writing from all the vaccine companies who sell their vaccines in the UK !

>To strains of Lepto they do not run the risk of encountering ?

I don't live in Clydebank and even when I visit at least I would be protected against L. ictero.
As you say they can only send samples from dogs they have access to and that have been diagnosed as having died from leptospirosis.  Some will have not known of the study and some will have filed it with the myriad other requests for participation, questionaires etc that vets receive if they are anything like GPs :)
My dogs vaccine documentation clearly advises that adverse reactions may occur I believe this was mentioned in a recent thread so I doubt very much research is not ongoing. 
Don't forget that does not just mean their lab work it will also include an analysis of work presented by others.

Your questioning of what Mr Thompson said goes beyong the pale Isabel, as I`ve said in another post I`m sure he`s got his facts very clear before putting it into print.:rolleyes:

:rolleyes:
I'm not questioning what he said.  I am asking about the omitted facts such as the size of study, something every research piece should be examined for and the data about L. ictero.

Hi bev, I fully understand what you are thinking. My eldest is due this month but I am opting for the titre test instead, mainly because she isn't 100 per cent fit. Trouble is she loves swimming and I'm worried about her not being covered with the lepto but I don't think any one (vet) will convince me to vaccinate. But then I think 'what about the other one?' I show her so she gets out and about mixing more with other dogs, will she bring anything 'home' with her? Shall I just have her vaccinated? Oh I hate having to make decisions :rolleyes: but I am going armed with information I have gathered, (seeing vet on wednesday - different matter) have a good chat with him and then probably come away even more undecisive than when I went in :rolleyes: I understand peoples reasons for and against but at the end of the day only you can make the decision and you must go with what you feel is best. At the moment I am undecided. Have I mentioned that? :D

What breed were they Bev & what immune disease did they have?