The responses to 'Newbie Breeder needs advice' remind me of a couple of questions I've been intending to ask for a while.

First, why breed? The standard response is "to improve the breed", but that begs the question "how?" I'm slowly coming round to the view that maybe the answer ought to include, or perhaps even begin with "to produce genetically healthy companion dogs of excellent temperament that fit in with modern society".

Secondly, what degree of inbreeding is acceptable, when and why? Thinking specifically of very close matings.

Whilst the 'to improve the breed' stock answer can be true in some cases - people who have exceptional examples of the breed, close to the ideal in every respect, including temperament, I think it would be more true if more people acutally said "to improve on my existing stock" (and many dont even attempt that - is kennel blindness contagious). And while this is not quite as noble sounding, it can have its merits - if every mating actually could be guaranteed to minimise the fault and maximise the good points of the parents (which is a sort of utopian fantasy)

However, I dont think the improving the breed answer precludes your 'genetically healthy companion dogs" premise. If people are genuinely trying to breed the best possible examples of the breed, using the above mentioned excellent dogs and bitches this should go a long way towards producing ideal companion animal as well - the pet pups benefiting from the careful breeding programme as much as the show potential ones. If you breed for good health, excellent termperament, and to fit the breed standard you can fulfil both sets of criteria (in theory, anyway)
Gwen

Hi Gwen, agree with all of that :-). When I talked about "to produce genetically healthy companion dogs of excellent temperament that fit in with modern society", I was thinking along the lines that the 'traditional' charactaristics of many breeds don't actually fit in very well with what most people want in a companion dog. For instance, very heavily coated dogs are a pleasure to look at, but how many people find that after a while they just can't or won't cope with the coat? Some of the guarding breeds ought to have 'sharp' responses, but is this a desirable trait for most owners? Some herding breeds like border collies need a lot of stimulation and training (or better still work), but this doesn't fit in with many lifestyles. Personally I'd hate to see sighthounds lose the instinct to chase and hunt, but have to admit that many owners would find them easier and better companions if they had less of it. I was also thinking about some breeds where some charactaristics have become exaggerated. The 'Stop the anti pedigree dog abuse' thread has started up again, and while I think Emma the vet is a prat, I do have some sympathy with the underlying suggestion that some breed standards, or at least the way some breeds have been judged, hasn't done them any favours. I don't want to start a fire-fest here, but to take one example, can we really say that breeding dogs that are so brachycephalic that many have whelping problems is improving the breed?

What degree of in/line breeding? I would say that doubling up on the third line is a close as I would like to see. But that is really not an accurate statement because so much has to be taken into account. How big is the gene pool? Tight breeding in a small gene pool is likely to be more of a disaster in the long run than in a big gene pool because it is limiting the gene pool even more in the next generation. Trouble is, by its very nature, a genetically small breed is going to be closer bred than a larger gene pool anyway so the problem is compounded.

In my experience, Goldens, (Don’t hit me you Golden people!) breed tighter than usually seen in some numerically smaller breeds but because of the size of WORKING gene pool can get away with it. (Hopefully)

Flatcoats, although a fairly large breed numerically speaking has an extremely small gene pool. (OK you Flatcoat people, you don’t agree? Tell me, how many lines can you tell me of without Blackcap in?)

To me, the problem is: How many ACTIVE and UNRELATED stud dogs are there in a breed?

Food for thought?

Regards, John

Hi John, I was thinking of much closer matings - mother/son, brother/sister. I know of a kennel that did this sort of mating for three decades or so, and as far as I know it consistently produced good, healthy dogs. The breed isn't one of the numerically smallest, but it isn't big either. If you are talking about the 'popular sire syndrome' in flatcoats, I totally agree with you, and I think that the more active and unrelated (as far as possible) stud dogs there are in a breed, the better. In fact I'd go further and say that in breeds with a small gene pool, there is a very good argument for using typical, healthy but maybe less than excellent studs. Getting back to very close matings, I don't have a problem with them as long as the breeder has a reason for doing it, knows or has reliable information about every dog in the pedigree for five or six generations back, is willing to follows the pups and their progeny up from birth to death and is prepared to cull/keep/neuter the lot if things go wrong.

I hear what your saying Sharon and read of a similar case in working Irish Setters only a few weeks ago. A friend of min in Shiba Inu's did a daughter to father mating to find out what skeletons there were in the woodwork. Both of these cases were highly experienced breeders and knew what they were doing but if I saw such close breeding in a pedigree of a dog I was looking to buy I would think more than twice before I would take the puppy on. I really don’t believe it is the way to go.

Dr Jeff Sampson discussed negative recessive alleles at a health seminar just a few weeks ago and how this could, with continual in breeding, lead to In-breeding Depression. The genes of a close mating can literally be swamped out by going outside for the next few matings but stay close and you could be in trouble.

The thing is, you can only get what you have. No fresh genes going into the mix means nothing can improve. At best you can only stagnate, at worst litter sizes get smaller, missed matings and miscarriage increase and health deteriorates.

To me this is not something to be undertaken lightly.

Regards, John

hi all,
sharon out of interest what was the breed,to some of your earlier posts,is this not how the mongrels came about, take a bit from that a bit from that and see what you get.my father and a friend had a g.s.d brought over after the second world war as most know that most of the good stock was wiped out in the war and what was left most if the yanks took home, so there was a very small gene pool very close interbreeding,sadly the dog had to be destroyed as it took a fit and had my mother pinned in the arm chair until my dad could get a vet, the vets conclusion that the dog was to highly bred,trying to get the perfect speciemen what worries me with mother /son brother/sister matings it's not the first couple of generations this kind of mating affects it's what comes after from your profile i see you are a doctor, how would this affect the human race if we did this.out of interest

That's not strictly true. It was not so much the fact that good dogs were wiped out as that very few dogs were registered. This was the reason for the "Pink Form" registeration. If it looked like a breed and was mated to a dog of that breed and the puppies were appeared true to that breed then the puppies could be registered truly as that breed.

But again in those days, retrievers were not breeds! They were varieties and as such could be, under certain curcumstances, interbred. This widened the gene pool still wider. This was very much needed because at one time, as an example, the Flatcoated Retriever was down to just 17 registered dogs!

Yes, some dogs did leave the country but some others went the other way and came into the country so the "Trade" was not all one way. This general moving around of dogs would have had very good effects on the breeds at that time by bringing new genes into the gene pool. By the same token, the pet passport scheme in use now could be a good thing, again by making it easier for the gene pool to be enlarged. (My own fears is more in the direction of something nasty being brought in by the same door!)

Regards, John

A friend of mine is a victim of a change of Policy.

She has a 9 year old Groenendael dog, who mismated her Terv bitch. She has a really, lovely litter (the Black boy has terv in his breeding and the pedigree is compatible), and the pups look really good.

As the KC decided last year to make BSDs seperate breeds, no intervariety mating may now take place! They will cross register the pups that are born though. when I was originally in the breed, limited intervariety mating was allowed for the good of a broader gene pool.

So she has 7 lovely pups, with good bloodlines, that can make no contribution to theor breed, and cannot be registered.

I'm not up to date on BSD's I'm afraid! Have they changed the rules yet again? I know that at one time you registered the puppies as what they looked like. After that the KC decided to classify them as one breed. Still later I thought they had reverted back to the status quo. What are the present rules?

Regards, John

hi john
a book that i read then has got it wrong then.it read to me that a lot of the good breeding stock was wiped out in the war due to the fact that the best of the g.s.d were used in the war and were killed, i am not just talking conformation of the breed but also temprement,the germans were always striving for that perfect specieman and i feel after the war there must of been some set backs to that breeding program, if soldiers can become shell shocked and affected by war then why not the breeds. food for thought.my father saw that they were still what he called experiementing with the breed and decided to leave it at that, i am very gratfull to those who persevered with the breed to get those temprements better. regards tina.

No being in GSD's I really would not know just how many were requisitioned by the military during the war. What I do know is from personal experience. As a family my parents had dogs before the war but when our old dog died during the war it was decided that because of food rationing there would be no more dogs for the time being. Food rationing continued right into the 1950's and it was not until 1955 when a school friend of mine’s bitch had puppies that our next dog arrived. This was a very common scenario. Food was scarce and little to spare for dogs and I believe this was the biggest single reason for the decline in ALL breeds of dog at that time.

Regards, John

John,
The same thing was going on over here in Germany. My hausmeister was a young child in the late '40s-50s growing in the Pfalz region. He's told me about food being very scarce, going barefooted in the winter, and just generally very terrible living conditions. Dogs as pets were rare during the war just due to the scarcity of food and their subsequent deaths due to the violent conditions. They were a luxury even up until the 1970s and 80s just due to the lack of breeders.

I had a co-worker in 1992 who drove completely across the country to purchase a maltese puppy for his mother. The cost was extremely high ($800-$1000). Even the yearly taxes for owning a dog is high and depends completely on the size of the dog.

Personally, I believe that many of the GSD's were never bred for inclusion into a family household during the 1930s. They were working dogs and treated as such. Even now, GSDs roam the business properties at night guarding the 'turf'. They can't be considered as "junkyard" dogs since many of these properties include the owner's home. They have a doggy door to enter a 'bed' area and are part of the family. Still, they are not approachable and definitely not friendly. UK would likely consider them rather "scary" and apply DDA to many of them :rolleyes:

BTW: On US servicemen "taking" dogs from Europe to the States??? That's an interesting one. I can see it for rare instances or if someone was in logistics/supply, but regular troops.... Hmmm.
toodles

It did happen to a small extent that I know of, not so much during the war as in the later years. I live within a few miles of a very important American instillation which even now, with the scaling down of the American presents in the UK is still manned. I know of dogs which were brought by service personnel as pets and were taken back to the states at the end of their tour. By the same token, I know of dogs brought into the country by service personnel so as I said, it was a two way thing with the advantage of widening the gene pool in both countries.

As far as the food rationing was concerned, people who were not there could not imagine it. I can still remember going into the local shop and buying a bar of chocolate for the first time without a ration book! I stress, we were not hard done by but there was no spare to be shared with dogs! We, along with most people at that time, did not "Do away" with our old dog. He was with us until he died of old age but was not then replaced. I suppose, because of the circumstances I never even pushed my parents for another dog at that time.

You are right in saying that the general thoughts about dogs was different in those days. To a certain extent life was cheap and dog’s lives were even cheaper! When I finally started pushing for a dog and was given permission, I went, on my own, as a child of twelve to chose it. I brought it home on a bus on my own without my parents even seeing either him or the Dam! Who would allow their children to do that these days? They did not even know the breeds involved (He was a cross breed). The only instructions I had was that it should not be too big, it was to be male and must be short haired!

Times change, and not always for the better! I'm not stupid enough to think everything in those days was good, they weren’t but some things seem to make more sense then than they do now! Then again, maybe it's just me got old.

Best wishes, John

John,
If you don't mind my asking, which RAF base do you live near? We are hoping in 2004 to move either to RAF Fairford or down to Camp Darby, Italy. Lakenheath/Mildenhall is not one of my hubby's choices, nor really mine--too large :rolleyes: :)

BTW: I was interpreting the mass transport of good gsds from Germany as if they were included in the drastic drawdown of troops 1-3 years after the war ended. Those went by troop ships and special air -- people were the cargo with very limited baggage room. But I understand it now to be by regular permanent party personnel who were stationed in Europe. That's realistic. I still don't think that there was a "rush" to buy up the good canine stock and leave Europe with nothing ;) :)

I live at High Wycombe Toodles. We have the RAF Strike Command and also the US at Daws Hill. I think this is mainly an admin base now. Upper Hayford, which is no longer used by the USAF I think, is about 30 miles and the old Greenham Common (Which is now a paint ball site!) is about 25 miles in the other direction. A couple of houses on the opposite side of the road to us were on permanent loan to the Daws Hill base so I got to know several families quite well. At that time I was spending quite a lot of time in the local Gym and several from the base were members. Our Christmas parties at the pub across the road from the gym were legendary! Oh happy days!

Best wishes, John

Hi John,
Before we met at Bitburg, my hubby was stationed at Greenham Common (1991-92). He was one of the last ones there and turned out the lights as he left ;) :) Yep, he loved it there and didn't want to leave after only a year. Yep, where you at is only an admin base, he can't go there either :( C'est la vie. Lift a pint to the old place for him please ;)

hi john and eoghania
thank-you both for the input ,good reading, john i have the greatest respect for all those that have been through the two wars, service men and woman and those that sufered the affects, i prey that me and mine never have to go through any thing like that, and the old school, were would we be with out you, once your all gone the rubbish will be left.i don't know if you saw that programe back awile with the g.s.d serving in vietnam,it was one of the most distressing things i had seen,service men having to shoot there dogs, lump in throat and tears coming just remembering it,thanks again for input, regards tina

Take no notice of me Tina, I'm just a doddering old fool!

Regards, John

hi john,aaaaaaww, yer not, you make some good comments, i enjoy the input and out put, even when there are heated moments on the threads, regards tina.

just a doddering old fool
Pthtttt:P :P Hardly that!! :rolleyes: and don't try to convince us otherwise, John :)

If you ever get the chance read 'My life with Boxers' by Frau Stockman.
It's a brilliant book, it does describe what the stockmans went through
to keep their Boxers alive etc during the war, how many from thier kennel (Von Dom) were conscripted into Army life and how many were killed in action, it even has photo's of some of the dogs etc.
If my memory serves me correctly then it also describes the von dom kennel selling one of their better dogs to raise funds, he came to UK
and then was sold to US to raise funds for the red cross.
I know of a big Boxer kennel that had alot of very closely bred Boxers.
(The Wiley's Wardrobes line) and they were the dominant kennel in the show ring too.

I have bred my first litter and did so after much consideration and questions. I was lucky to have a good mentor and was able to ask loads of 'silly' questions etc. My bitch is line bred, not sure on the co-efficiency? But anyhow I will be looking into taking her out. Her pedigree is such that she should breed on (should I decide to do so, once passing health checks etc). She is tall, some have said thats 'vigour'
as some lines within my breed are getting on the small side. Also alot of our breed that is in the show-ring is very closely related which does not bode well surely for the future (when looking at whats being produced by certain dogs etc, and what faults are apparent), also how will you breed out problems/faults? Life is never easy, also on lines that aren't known how can you be sure of any potential skeletons? (you have to rely totally on the breeders honesty) Breeding isn't for the faint hearted.

On another footnote, I live near a RAF base RAF Benson, very nice, have placed a rescue with a family there. Get to hear the helicopters coming over home on occasion. Used to live in Benson for a short while :)

This is a really interesting debate :)

hi kirstine-b,
thanks for your input ,very interested in the affects of war, and breeding programes after war,sorry know very little about boxers but will see if local library can get hold of copy, regards tina

I have 2 cocker spaniels both KC registered. I have found out that the father of the boy is the grandfather of the girl. Will it be possible to mate them or should i use a different stud dog because of this family connection?

This would be line breeding, and a good mating if said Father/Grandfather had contributed all the best points to the two dogs involved! You would need to know the dog well regards temperament and health, as he would have a disproportinately large influence on the litter. His health therefore neeeds to be beyond question, and you should look at as many of his children and grandchildren as possible, and decide if they asre the sort of puppies you want to produce.

I would be guided by an experienced breeder in this regard!

hi johh .iam not digging at you but i only got 1 out of 4 that gos back to blakcap,and that one as show ch all the way back,but he not to the breed stander and as not done well at shows,but in working he good,and there no working behind him.and he had a lot of health problem to.

You are very lucky Brie. When I highlight Bret on my Flatcoat database and come up to date the results horrify me! Literally the whole database goes red! His name is dropping off the back of pedigrees now but his influence is still there. The big name on pedigrees now seems to be Gayplume and again Blackcap was grand sire to Saucy Susie, the founder of her line.

Regards, John

We had a bitch come along to Nof the other day for me to assess the mating (well before she's in season, so we've both got plenty of time to think about it.

On first inspection the pedigree looked like an outcross, but going back far enough you do (surprise surprise) link into Blackcap.

This beggars the question that many people, especially if they particularly like the bitch in question, will take the pedigrees to pieces for maybe 10 generations to find a tenuous link, and say 'Gosh, don't the pedigrees nick in well'. This could well be a recipe for disaster as you end up beeding two dissimilar animals with the resultant mish-mash of puppies.

I am coming round to the way of thinking that you need two animals who are phenotypically similar (similar in body construction), and are both excellent specimens of the breed - any minor faults in one being countered by strength in the other. Yes, in flatcoats at least, you will almost certainly find a 'nick' anyhow if you go back far enough, but hopefully this maintains the genetic diversity while keeping the quality phenotype.

Yes, I have used a complete outcross who didn't fit my criteria in that the two dogs in question were very dissimilar in appearence, but with good reason, as I wanted to include the excellent field trial lines into my pedigree - I will then revert to my original overall plan in the next generation if I'm still alive!!!

I hope it goes without saying that any faulty temperament is ruthlessly condemned out of the breeding programme however sound that dog is in construction/ability - sadly this does not always happen.

The whole thing becomes a finely-tuned balancing act, where you attempt to minimise any genetic gamble.

Jo and the Casblaidd Flatcoats

jo of course you be still a live where do you think you going,john on your data base what details do you keep,is it only pedigrees,
i am hoping to mate brie to rush next week and that be uncle /niece.reason are.
1, both have good hip score and clear eyes,and be hind them.and d,n,a,
2,no tempertant problem,that been pass on thourgh rush puppies,both have good temp.
3,rush puppies have not had any health problems,
4,brie mum eyes clear and good hip and two of the other puppies eyes clear and good hips.
5 brie a out cross and rush out cross hope the two line will be good together by her grandad and his dad,who has working and show lines behind.
6the only fault that both have some time carring they tail high.
7,both have done well in showing and rush's puppies are done well,plus brie coming a long with her working side.
but the list could go on.with all breeding its a gamble you just donot know what you are getting at the end,but do the homework first,and may get some good results.

My database is very basic Brie. It really only started when a friend and I were looking at dogs for her bitch. Since then it has grown to just a few thousand dogs. In actual fact my Flatcoat database is bigger than my Labrador database, which considering my breed is Labradors might seem rather strange!

I have no problems with reasonably close matings Done for a reason. It is a legitimate tool in a breeder’s armoury. My own feelings are that new genes need to be brought in from time to time to strengthen the line.

The problem in breeds where one dog has, or his descendants have been used many times is that the dogs genes have a disproportionate effect on the breed. I talk Flatcoats but I could just as easily talk Cambus Christopher in the Golden lines. Maybe a bit further back but who in Labradors does not have the old Sandylands dogs Tan, Tweed and Tandy? Most who say "Not me!" just have not gone back that far in their research!

Sorry to get on my hobby horse but Sharon started it!

Best wishes, John

Genetics.

Brainless, I hope this is where you meant? :-)

I understand one of the new Dutch rules is that stud dogs won't be able to be used more than 30 times - what are the opinions on limiting the use of stud dogs?

Christine

well rush, got a long way to hit that target,

It depends on the breed Christine. In my breed it is a total of 3 or 4 times. The Dutch breeders are totally up in arms about it. I'm in favour of not overusing stud dogs but it has to be a reasonable figure.

Joan
Take the rough with the smooth

Such a rule in my breed would make no difference, even the most used dogs have not had that many litters. I certainly think that a dog should be not overused in prportion to the number of litters bred, but would prefer that the choice remained with the good sense of the breeders and stud owners.

i have refuse some bitch's beacuse,1,beacuse of the pedigree,and the test results are not what i would like,and 2 the bitch as nothing to improve the breed,one owner wanted her bitch of 6 1/2 year old to be make for the first time,that was a no.so i think i am a senseable stud owner and donot do it for the money beacuse i go out to work to keep the dogs, like most of us are your dog are pet first and a hobbie,not like the big kennals<???

Hi Sharon
I wasn't going to reply to this post as I didn't know if people would find my reasoning valid, but here goes.
Q1 Why Breed?
I have loved my breed since I was a small girl and it has always been my ambition to breed. I show my dogs and enjoy it, so I will only breed when I want a puppy and I will endeavour to breed for the furtherment of my breed. My greatest ambition is to breed a sound, healthy hound who actually makes it to be a CH.
Q2 Inbreeding
I have always been v.sceptical about inbreeding, and tend to agree with the comments made by John in that you run the risk of stagnating with no input of new genes. I would also be v.concerned about the skeletons in the closet side to v.close inbreeding and I don't know if I would have the courage to try and if it fails cull. However I recently read a book about genetics & breeding and inbreeding was expounded as the way to go, not sure how I felt about it so when I went to stay with my bitch's breeder a short while ago I left the book with her to read and discuss with me afterwards. The bottomline is that the authour suggested that if you *linebreed* and you get a good result then effectively you have inadvertantly inbred as the two dogs had a lot of *like* genes, he gives example that two 1st cousins MAY be more closely related than litter brother & sister and that it is POSSIBLE that a dog can be totally unrelated to 1 of it's 4 grandparents (though not probable).
I guess I will play relatively safe, if it can be termed so, and I will try to linebreed with sound, healthy dogs who match the phenotype I have in my head of my perfect dog and aim towards my dream.
Nicky

Never be afraid to have your say Nicky. We may not all agree but that is not important. We none of us know everything but it's by discussing things that we learn. Sometimes someone, me included, get annoyed about something someone says but that is natural and does not mean anything.

Incidentally, I can see nothing wrong with your reasoning! Basically in-breeding and line-breeding are shades of the same thing and the use of line breeding to consolidate the good points in a line is a long established way to go. The thing to remember though is that you can consolidate everything, bad points as well as good! It is the breed as a whole which worries me. Using the currant "Flavour of the month" could end up by destroying the varied nature of the gene pool.

The other side of the coin to line breeding is to outcross and this is what Jo is talking about doing. She has gone outside her line to bring a good working Flatcoat's genes in. This is again a very valid approach. Rather like when a breed was originally established, you look around for a dog which has a characteristic which you are looking for and add the genes to your line. (Rather simplistic I know <g> ) Hopefully the characteristic will carry through to the puppies. If not then it could be a good idea to go back to this new line next time to help to consolidate it.

Breeding should always be to a long term plan. Never because the stud dog just happens to be handy. This is the reason why so many people get "Shouted" at when they post the "Where can I find a stud dog" post.

Regards, John

Hi John
Thanx for your kind reply. :)
I too worry about the *Flavour of the month* type breeding. :(
In our breed, as Philippa will probably agree, we often get a big winning dog that everyone rushes off to use in the hope of obtaining his *look* for their next litter. We tend to suffer trends of fancy from two basic *looks* and the fashion swings too & fro.
I am not one such as this who will go Ch hunting for a stud, I like what I like and I will not be swayed by the current trends.
I have spent the last 6mths + looking at possible *boyfriends* for my bitch for her next season, I have looked at the phenotype, pedigree and hopefully have enough knowledge of the dogs contained therein to have made a good choice. I haven't gone off to the big winning dog, I made a shortlist of 4 and I believe I've chosen a promising youngster who I like (also liked his parents), who has a pedigree that some would consider an outcross with my bitch (but he does go back to my bitch's line through his mother).
I shan't know util I do it whether I have made the right choice, but I do have the support of my bitch's breeder so I must be on the right lines! :D
Nicky

Hi Nicky, I bet you have made a good choice. I believe an outcross is a good idea every now and again in a very "close" pedigree. I also agree with you totally about all the sheep who charge of to use the latest dog with a CH in front of his name, regardless of wether he is suitable for their bitch or not. It always surprises me that the stud dog owners are so willing to let it happen as well. Still, I suppose its an easy few quid isnt it:(

Hi Phil
I think so. :D
Will e you and tell you if you like.
Nicky

We can only ask breeders to try Nicky and you have obviously done your best. No one can ask more and I wish you well.

Kindest regards, John

Hi John
As an afterthought to your first reply, I got thinking about the *Stud dog needed / Where can I find Stud dog* type posts we get on the board, and I think perhaps a valuable comment to make to these people would be "If you don't know how to go about finding one do you really know enough to have use of one!"
In my opinion they deserve to be *shouted* at!
Nicky
P.S. Thanx for kind wishes. :D

>>"If you don't know how to go about finding one do you really know enough to have use of one!" In my opinion they deserve to be *shouted* at!

I disagree Nicky. EVERYONE of us had to start somewhere and many of us didn't have the internet and sites like this to turn too for help and advice. I know it gets frustrating repeating ourselves some of the time, but there is nothing to say that we have to answer any of the posts? New members join daily, so there will always be someone else to answer those posts, if we feel we don't want to do it any more :-)

I'm sorry you disagree with my comment Leigh.
I agree that we all have to start somewhere. However the point I was endeavouing to make was that if someone does not know enough to either have contact with their breeder or go to shows to suss out prospective studs, or have any other ideas how to make contact through perhaps the breed clubs, then do they really know enough about their breed to breed?
Nicky

I can see what you are saying Nicky, but why is this medium any different from asking for help and advice, via a breed club/breeder/show or reading a book?

I don't think it is so much the *medium* that is the problem, its the whole idea that these people have absolutely no idea at all, they don't even go to ringcraft or training clubs to have contact with doggy people who could give first hand advice about whether or not their dog is nice. They don't have any knowledge of their dogs' pedigrees and they certainly don't know anything about the ancestors contained therein. They often have no idea of the health probs in their breed or the tests they should be doing, why not start at the Vet's, go seek your Vet's advice, most Vets know a good example of the breed when they see one. They don't know their breed standard so do they really know if their dog has something to offer the breed? They often don't even know what lines they should be looking for, they just cast about vainly hoping for *one of the same* to be just around the corner. And lastly they have not thought it through, they may get a v.nice litter, on the other hand they may have an atrotious litter, but at the end of the day, I feel that unless you have done all the above research, and more, and have a positive idea of where you want to go with your breeding, then aren't there enough dogs in the dogs homes without adding more.
Nicky

Having been involved in breed rescue for many years, I can offer you many examples of so called *experienced* breeders who have researched pedigree's/shown etc but their dogs still end up in rescue, so to say that one off *pet* matings end up in rescue is assuming a lot!

As I said before, I understand what you are saying Nicky, but *shouting* at people doesn't solve a thing. Far better to offer them constructive advice and help when they ask, than to condemn them out of hand :-)