Just wondering if the KC rules have changed regarding the space a bitch should have between litters? I thought all litters to be registered should be at least a year apart, perhaps I am wrong?

I thought you were allowed 2 out of 3 seasons

They must've changed because in our breed there was a bitch who had two litters registered so close together it was a physical impossibility

What made me wonder about this is that advertising on CD is a breeder in my breed of puppies which are from a bitch who only whelped seven months ago. Even our Society code of ethics states at least two years between litters.

Yes you can have a litter within 12 months of each other as long as you are not a recognised breeder and then you have to ask for permission.

Unfortuantely it can be possible to have a litter very quickly after another if you are not careful.  My girl came in 3 months after having her litter so could of feesibly of had a litter within 7 months of the first.  I nearly died when she came in so early as she's never done this before and it was a nightmare keeping her and her mother who came in at the same time away from the two boys.  I don't think my spare bedroom has recovered yet, nor have I :d :D

Polly, as a breed Judge/steward, you surely KNOW the regulations - are you just highlighting what you perceive to be a problem?

(I must admit, I would too!)

Margot

>Polly, as a breed Judge/steward, you surely KNOW the regulations - are you just highlighting what you perceive to be a problem?<

As a breed judge and a steward I keep up with the KC rules regulating shows, but as I rarely breed from my dogs and currently only have a couple of male dogs and a spayed female, I don't really keep track of the breeding ethics the KC introduced a while back other than I did remember they had included that a bitch should have at least a year between litters. Hence I was surprised to see a bitch with a litter seven months after her last. I couldn't find the ethics page on the KC site either, however a friend has now sent me this and it does not say anything about how often a bitch can be bred from.

It seems I shall have to keep up with these regulations as well now! I am thinking of getting a bitch and if she is a good worker I might eventually be tempted to have a litter from her.

It is a registered breeder that is not allowed to register 2 litters in 12 months not recognised ;-)

Isn't it LICENSED?

Yip registered as a Licenced breeder was what I meant. Not recognised.  Anyone can be a recognised breeder.

recognised breeder

Haven't I seen you somewhere before?? :D

:D

Yes recognised alright ;-)

BUT is it good or bad recognised breeder ;-)

The KC do allow it for hobby breeders but if it is against your club's code of conduct why not report it to them.

Does anyone know why it should be different for "hobby breeders" to those that are "recognised breeders" to have no gap between seasons and following litters?

Surely it's not promoting responsible breeding, to those that know no better :(

I think it was changed in recognition that hobby breeders do not generally exploit their dogs and will tend only to breed within a year, usually just within a year, when they think it is well within the physical capabilities of the bitch.

Well most hobby breeders are unlikely to be taking the maximum number of litters from their bitches anyway.

Just as an example I have a champion bitch who is rather sexually dominant and therefore not the easiset bitch to mate.

I tried mating her at 3 but she wore her maiden suitor to a frazzle and I only managed to get brief intimate contact, as she was a cow :rolleyes:  Poor dog just wasted his efforts, as she would move at the crucial moment and leap all over him.

Tried her on her next season, and same game.  Eventually managed to get her mated just the once to our imported dog just as she was going over and a litter resulted when she was almost four years old.

Tried her again 14 month later and she would not play the game.  Next season after much messing about and pandering to her tastes in location and timing we got a litter nearly two years after the first. 

She went 9 months before having her next season, and was now 6 1/2 and I wanted the chance to try an older champion dog who had only sired one litter, so I tried him with her even though it would only be a 9 1/2 month gap between litters, as another 9 months would have been too long. 

In the event we got no pups, as he didn't manage to mate her until day 20.

I would never normally mate on successive seasons, but felt justified in this case because of the timing, and ages.

I am hoping she will come into seson in August (bit she might not come in until (november) when she will be mated and I hope have a third (probably last) litter before she is 7, as the first two were both by the same dog, and I want a male by a different sire to be available from her for future use on her daughters descendants from the first litter.

i think i know who you are refuring to polly

Breeders that are required to be Licensed under the Breeding and Sale of dogs (welfare) Act (normally those breeding five or more litters in any 12 month period or those deemed to be breeding as a business) have to have a 12 month between litters as it is the law of the land (wish it was enforced for the puppy farmers overbreeding their bitches).

When this law was enacted the Kennel Club decided to apply it to all breeders too, but in effect it caused problems for those breeders who may have gone just under the year, or for those with bitches having very long cycles, say every 10 months when having a second litter straight after may be justified, as generally the bitches wouldn't be being over bred routinely.

You used to have to get a letter from the Vet saying the bitch was fit for another litter, but it was becoming very difficult from an administrative point of view only to have to give permission anyway, so they changed the rule a couple of years ago.

Hi Polly

Just had a look at the page of the breeder in question - 1 large litter in Sept. and one again in April does seem a bit much for the bitch, doesn't it?

Seems that there's nothing the KC can do about it, though.

Jo

If you take a look at the UK Toy catalogues for 05 and 06 you will see there is one breeder who has managed to produce 3 litters from the same dog and bitch in 12 mths, have asked the KC about it as that does seem extreme and unfortunatley they agree it's not idea but there is no regulation or law stopping these individuals having litters every season as they are not Licensed breeders.

How can that be?  She would have to be in every 3 months!!  Seems a bit strange to have 3 litters in 12 months

My thoughts exactly but as its in the catalogues and the KC have confirmed it you have to work out how long the bitch was pregant and add a couple of mths for the pregancy on the first litter but I thought about it again. 

Say I have a bitch whelp pups on 1st Jan who then comes into season again when the pups are 12 wks old and is mated again with pups delivered in 9wks making that two litters in 5 mths and if the same happens again you can see how in 9 -10mths from birth of the first litter a bitch could have another 2 litters.  My schips could do this as few go longer than 12 wks post delivery to season, others have reported as long as 10mths between birth and next season so I think it would depend on the dogs.

why have you mated your bitch again after the first litter was only 12weeks ??? plus you stated it would depends on the dogs season.well to me it down to the breeder to be reponsable about their breeding progamme and the welfare and the health of the bitch.

god i know it hard i had two babys in 18 months that humans,

to me that not fair on the bitch to cover after the first litter.

i have done a year apart litter and the bitch did have two season.plus she was back in the ring after 10 weeks with her litters.winning bob

for last year what i have been hearing what going on in my breed .i think they are not think of the breed or the health issue.but they may be the one that may not get any problems,
but  like of me that work out what lines to use and look at the health side to, ends up with a problem.

I didn't think they were saying it was right or ethical just that it is just physically possible.

well it must be physically possible reading some of the post.

but i dont  think  right for the physical or mental side of the bitches health, but hey that my opinon

I don't think anyone would stretch to thinking 3 litters in a year reasonable but I certainly think it reasonable for a healthy bitch of a modestly sized breed to have 2 without any detriment to her health.  I know my cocker could have managed this without blinking if only I had had the energy for it :)  I have a couple of friends within the breed who have done this because it best suited their plans, producing healthy puppies and the dam going on to live a long and healthy life.  Acknowledgement of this is reflected in the Breed Club code and clearly the KC thinks it is totally acceptable too.

Say I have a bitch whelp pups on 1st Jan who then comes into season again when the pups are 12 wks old..................................... 9 -10mths from birth of the first litter a bitch could have another 2 litters.

why have you mated your bitch again after the first litter was only 12weeks ??? plus you stated it would depends on the dogs season.well to me it down to the breeder to be reponsable about their breeding progamme and the welfare and the health of the bitch.

Schip was giving an example not saying she had done this

ok

Indeed I was just giving an example of how it would be possible NOT saying I'd done it myself as I too thought it not possible for a bitch to whelp 3 litters in a 12mth period.

if you look again the photo in april litter is the same on the september litter too ??

It is the same photo or perhaps she is such a good trainer she can pose her dogs identically each time???

Shame she hasn't given potential buyers more information by filling in the parents' pedigrees - makes it much more interesting for them

Jo

how your solo pup. you had to copy me in the end with one pup.

is it a girl or boy.

She's a beautiful little black girl.    Yes, where Terri goes, others follow   Very forward little soul.....

Jo
x

Edited to say  - the pup is forward - not you , Terri!!!

Edited again to say  - I didn't mean that you were backward.either.....know how things can get twisted sometimes!!!!!!!

thats ok.

that funny that i had 1 solo black bitch and you got the same.these dog that come aboard for stud work,lets us down(only joking} torsten other litter there was 11{i think 6 of them were mine}:rolleyes::rolleyes: