Having read the vast sources of information on this forum I would be grateful if someone could help to clarify a few things. I have read lots of posting regarding problems with stud dogs and now dont feel such a failure! My 4 yr old virgin springer was given a very willing female for the first time last week. She did absolutely everything she could to entice him but he did no more than dribble, drool profusely, quiver and lick. She stood, flirted, encouraged, etc but he only ever tried a little indiscriminate mounting. All the signs were encouraging in as much as he was certainly interested but nothing "positive" seemed to happen, certainly no tie. They were together for 4 days all in all, but the owner of the bitch is doubtful that anything happened. If no puppies are forthcoming for this mating, how can we approach this in a manner that will mean success for her next season?

Welcome to the forum :-)

Are you positive that the bitch was ready? Some bitches flirt like mad but that does not mean that it is the *right time* for them to be mated. Was she a maiden too?

We are about as sure as we can be that the 'time was right'. Day 11 (to the best of our knowledge) was when we first tried and all the signs seemed to indicate this was the correct time. She was indeed a maiden 3yr old.

Thank you for your welcome, its a pleasure to join you all.

Bitches vary enormously in when they are ready, and some only stand (as opposed to flirt :-)) for a very short time. I have a bitch who could only be mated for about 24 hours very early in her season when the discharge was still bright red, although she flirted like mad for most of the time she was 'in'. The best (and cheapest :-)) indicator that a bitch is ready is an experienced stud dog who doesn't get excited unless the bitch is spot on, but if you don't have access to one, you could get your vet to check that the bitch is really ready next time. I don't know about springers, but in my breed both dogs and bitches can be very fussy about their mates, and if the dog doesn't 'fancy' the bitch he will point blank refuse to do the job, so it might be worth trying your boy with another bitch if possible. Again, don't know about springers, but in my breed 4 is often a bit old to start a stud dog, and unfortunately at that age many of them will not mate a bitch.

You may well have parted them too early. I have never had any of mine produce pups to a mating earlier than 14 days. One bitch who had missed on previous season (mated day 11 to 13) on next season with a different dog, who would not mate her until day 16 produced 7 pups. she was at the dogs home from day 11, and was outrageous, mounting his head etc, to the point that he told her off!

I had one bitch mated at day 21/23 who produced pups if she is still in season you could get the vet to test her to see if she is pre, due, or past ovulating

Christine

I think 4 could be rather old for a first timer (certainly in my breed). From your post do you mean you just put the dog and bitch in together to 'get on with it'? Did a first time mating with a friends bitch and her friends 3 year ol untired dog a couple of weeks ago, and he needed loads of help and encouragement to get positioned just right and actually complete the mating - left to there own devices I think they would probably still be flirting. I agree with the post about testing to see if the bitch has/is ovualting - if not too late you could try to find someone experienced in stud work to ehlp the dog understand what it is all about.
Gwen

Another thing to consider is that the average male pet dog has spent all its life being chastised for leaping on bitches or trying to mate things,......then all of a sudden he's allowed to do it & doesn't really understand if he is coming or going (excuse the pun....not intended!).

He has never needed to be chastised for jumping on anyone and has never shown much of a desire for females. He is a working gundog and very focussed on my son who trains and works him. He was together with the bitch from day 11 to 17 (we think) and yes, they were left to their own devices, we just didn't know how to persuade him to do otherwise. We tried several combinations of owner/dog incase he felt intimidated by the presence of certain people and they certainly were not supervised continually. We also tried a variety of places, in the house, in the kennel, a field, etc. He appears to "fancy" her, and is certainly happy in her company. Where would we find an experienced breeder to help? We don't know any professional studs!!!

Personally I find "just leaving them together" is not a good idea....often the dog gets exhausted from trying (and failing) and the element of novelty wears off. I put the dog & bitch together for 10 minutes, then actively try & get a mating for another 10 minutes, then if it fails, seperate them for an hour or so before trying again. This is assuming the bitch is 100% ready & the failure is due to lack of direction rather than lack of interest!

If they were together, unsupervised for either 4 days (your first post) or 7 days ( day 11 - 17) then there is a good chance that they mated when you were not watching them as this can occur in only few minutes once they put their minds to it :)

If a bitch owner is paying for the stud service it is usual (in my breed anyway) for them to stay an observe any mating and generally take the bitch away again and possibly return for a second mating 48 hours later.

Some dogs will just flirt and seem not to have any idea what goes where - others, even neutered maidens know exactly what to do when the time is right for the bitch.

Christine

With William we let him try and if it was not progressing we took him out of the area for a short while and when he came back he usually mated her straight away I agree with Sam leaving them together is not a good idea

I do feel that if it was a failure it was due to lack of direction rather than lack of interest. So therefore, is it true you can't teach an old dog new tricks??!!

We did try the apart/together routine before 'leaving them to it'. I suppose therefore that we have a 50/50 chance of success and only time will tell. I would still like the recipe for success next time round and information as just to HOW we can encourage more direction!

Ask your vet if they would give your number to local breeders who are likely to be mating their dogs in the next few months with the request that, could you go and observe. Mating is a natural procedure but sometimes a little help will go a long way to reassure a dog who is used to being chased off by bitches.

I think this is one subject where you would learn more by watching than by reading descriptions :)

Christine
PS Dogs of any age can learn new tricks if the reward is good enough!

Or you could post here and ask if anyone in you area will let you watch their matings. It realy isnt the sort of thing you can easily put into writing on an open forum! And in my experience, each dog needs a little different help. I occasionally help a friend who has Cavaliers, and some of them almost expect you to do everything for them!
Gwen

Without being too graphic(!), is the dog too high or too low? I always have someone (the owner) hold the bitch, then someon holding dogs collar plu a 3rd person angling the bitches vulva or helping the dog with his direction a bit.

Wow! and to think I thought all there was to it was to put a dog within a mile or two of a bitch in season and pups would ensue! I didn't bank on all this helping and watching stuff....! It is a subject that isn't easy to describe with ease but thanks for all your help. I will search out someone who will let me watch.

Just be very careful how you phrase the request that you wish to watch!

Christine

Just as a matter of interest, how does the vet check she is ovulating? Is this a costly procedure?

Ovulation testing is done with a blood test. Prices vary enormously according to different Vets. Mine charges about £18, one other local Vet quoted £60! Your can also get an Ovulation Detector, for use at home. This is not a quick fix, "Test one and it says mate now" kind of thing, careful reading have to be taken throughout the season, at the same time/times each day. I have used my 3 times, and each time produced a litter - but its readings simply confirmed all the usual signs from the bitches anyway.
Gwen

Just wanted to add, when I had a male dog he was used just once at stud, 63 days short of his 7th birthday. He had no problems mating the bitch, had a 15 minute tie and was knackered for the rest of the day (Typical male!!!!! ;))

The pups were born on his 7th birthday, all 14 of them!!!

Christine

Blood test

Do you have the book of the bitch - even if you only have a dog it may well be of use to you.

Christine

I shall see if I can get a copy when I go to Waterstones tomorrow - it looks like it is an informative book.