Hello i am feeling more than a bit annoyed at our dog trainer today and i wanted to know whether you think this is justifiable.
Sacher is 15 weeks and we went to the puppy trining last week and today. Last week there were 3 other dogs (a leonburger 12 weeks, a cocker spaniel 16 weeks, a labrador 9 weeks and Sacher 14 weeks). At the beginning of last weeks session, we arrived early and so had 2 of the other dogs and they were playing quite happily together and the trainer carried on letting them play at the beginiing of the class. Sacher was happily joining in and although the trainer said she was slightly more submissive than alot of them, it was just down to her breed. She set homework for the dogs to meet and greet 12 new dogs and we did this and she met over 20. Today, we went along slightly early again and before the class started and so was the leonburger and they were playing very happily and Sacher was very confident and didn't act submissive at all. the leonbergers owners comented that she was almost a different dog and we were feeling very pleased with the progress she had made. We went into the class and the trainer said that the other 2 dogs wern't able to come today so she had sked 2 of the dogs in the class above who were not keeping up to come back down so in came a boxer and another labrador. She then asked to let the dogs off the lead and Sacher started playing quite happily but then the boxer came and got very rough and you could tell Sacher wasn't very happy so the trainer kept calling the boxer back. the session carried on very much like this but by the end of it, Sacher wouldn't come out from under a table. the trainer noticed this so the other dogs had their leads put back on Sacher was let off and we all walked to the other end of the hall and Sacher was too scared to follow us past the other puppies. I am so irritated that an experience that is supposed to make the dogs more sociable ahas actually made Sacher take about 10 stpes back to further back than she was last week. What i am really annoyed abut is why the tainer asked two dogs that she knew were having difficulties back down into a class with new puppies?
Am i justifiably angry and shuld i find a new trainer (bearing in mind that this one was reccomended to me by many friedns wit lovely, calm dogs). SDoory about the long post i am very angry!

I don't think a 'all off the lead and playing' is the right way to socialise a puppy. My trainer did a meet and greet and walk away all on the lead which is better.

A dog I know did the off the lead puppy class and found that the dog just wanted to play with all other dogs it met meaning it pulling to each and everyone (and it is a big dog!)

Sorry i dont think i made it very clear ionly the very begining and very end were off the lead and the rest was controlled but there wqas a bit where we ha to try the new commands on another puppy and Sacher was cowering under the chairs and wouldn't do the comands so the trainer jsu t sat and held Sacher on the lead so she was missing out on almost the wholde class because the trainer had asked temperamental dogs into the class.

I wouldn't change your trainer just yet, you may find boistorous dogs in other training sessions just the same, but what I would change is arriving early for the free play session and maybe keeping Sacher on a lead still at the end, so that any bigger more hyperactive pups can not roughly play with her.

I'm not saying that I do not agree with your feelings, I would be flaming mad too, if my pup was doing well, then two elder pups spoilt her good start.

But she is going to meet lots of bigger, bolder pups and dogs throughout her life so you both need to learn how to handle yourselves around them, there will not be chairs for her to hide under out in the open, you will meet inconsiderate owners a plenty.

The trainer and boxer owner need to keep him under control so as not to intimadate yours and other dogs, if this is not done in future lessons, by all means complain and change your trainer, but wait and see a little whether Sacher will conquer her fears and get to join in and enjoy the lessons regardless.

If this trainer has come recommended I would stick with her a little longer and see whether your pup can become confident around all experiences. :-)

I don't think a 'all off the lead and playing' is the right way to socialise a puppy. My trainer did a meet and greet and walk away all on the lead which is better.

Yes it's a difficult ballance. Our dogs must be socialised to the level that an out of control dog can come dashing out of nowhere and jump all over them and ours tollerate them yet  ignore them enough to remember they are with us and not with the 'stray' dog! The push has been to create happy friendly socialised dogs and so the problem is that too many dogs are over socialised and too ready to run off and play with any and every dog they see... and even if they are friendly not every person or dog likes happy-go-lucky bouncy dogs.  I guess people all want different  and it's difficult getting it all to fit in togeter nicely.

I've not been in any class that lets the dogs go off lead to play together as my clubs have always seen socialisation as learning to be on lead and relaxed and comfortable and controlled near other dogs.  However out of class I compromised and so I've at time done the let them run off and play with other dogs because that's what the bulk of dogs do round here and mine have to be comfortable with that too. They can play as long as they come back when they are called. However free play always comes with the risk dogs will be dogs and have the odd 'disagreement' argument or nip.. so they can learn dogs are great...or not so great!  Ideally they will  learn to tell which are which and soon know which dogs to approach and which to keep clear from.

The trainer sounds worth keeping.. lol... some other trainers I've seen  shout at the pups, throw keys and things at them and squirt water at them yank them with choke chains, scruff them and shout in their face  and scare them into submission...so it sounds like yours might not be so bad. ;)  it is very difficult to find a trainer you are happy with because no one is perfect and knowing what is the right way to train a dog os confusing these days!  ...you just have to find the best you can for giving your pup the best start in life and who trains in the way you like to help your dog for into the role you are wanting.

Also.....when we are training and socialising and something goes wrong or not the way we want it and so on... often the way we react to it and respond to it effects our dog more then the incident itself... so when we train we have to ( in theory ) rise above the incidents and keep focused on what attitude we are trying to train... so be calm firm confident and possitive etc....which is not always that easy, especially if you are anything like me!    ;)

I think you're 100% correct there, Tenaj. :) In the longterm we want dogs who are calm and don't over-react to strange situations, even ones they don't like - so that's the attitude we need too. If the owner gets uptight when (for example) a strange dog comes rushing over then that's the attitude we teach our dogs. As you say, it's not easy to stay calm 'under fire' but that's what needs to be done.

it sounds as tho the trainer is alot better than some people out there. i too would be angry about it if my pup had taken a couple of steps backwards. the fact that she did so well in the week between the classes will probably get her confidence up again. as the trainer has seen the boxer being boisterous she may change the class the next week.
personally i would continue to go and if it gets no better next week then i would think about changing.
as you say she has been recommended by people with good calm dogs so she can't be doing everything wrong.
the trainer as you say kept calling the boxer back which is good - you can always have a quiet word with the trainer before you go in next week and ask if there was anyway that the boxers' play could be supervised slightly more.
hope this helps
anna

Thank you Carrington and Anna. I will go next week and see how we get on. I did stop to have a word with the trainer at the end an we did have a slight clash of opinions. She was telling me that i hadn't socialised my dog enough over the past week when infact we had more than doubled her target and i felt like i was having to apologise to her for my puppy being scared of a very boisterous dog. next week is recall which i will find very useful and hopefully the two older dogs will have gone back to their normal class and the other two will have come back from holiday. i'm just going to have to work very hard at re-building her confidense again this week. It was just so heartbreaking to watch the dog that had really come out of her shell and grow into a confident, happy little animal having the life scared out of her in something that was supposed to be beneficial but you are right about her having to meet other rought dogs but the difference there is that you can just walk away but in a training class you don't want to have to leave.
Thanks again for the advice

What breed is Sacher? :)
When mine went training, me and another owner used to get there that little bit earlier so his (boxer) and mine (leo) could have a play and get it out of their system so that when training started both dogs gave us their undivided attention :) Boxers, like leos, do play rough. The boxers owner told me that no other dog was allowed to play with her the way mine did as they feared, and quite rightly, that a smaller more delicate breed could get hurt or scared. They didn't intentionally hurt each other but I know if they had played that way with any other dog in that class (sheltie, whippet, spaniel, border) all of which were between 15 and 20 weeks, including ours, they could have hurt or scared them. I've never been to a training class where the dogs were encouraged to play off lead though. I do hope that Sacher is ok and her confidence comes back, and if those dogs appear again then tell the trainer that you won't be letting her off the lead - you don't have to and your dogs' safety comes first. Keep up with her training, and enjoy the sessions :)

I agree in that I'd keep the trainer for one more week. I think what happened could happen in most classes, except that an experienced trainer would have recognised that boxers are very bouncy usually and can scare many pups and even older dogs if those pups/dogs are not used to it or their breed doesn't play that way :)

She may have hoped Sacher would cope but if a pup's unhappy they should act quickly. Postive experiences are best at a young age so that later, when a pup/youngster invariably meets a more aggressive dog, they will tend to bounce back much more quickly as they believe all dogs are basically friendly.

I think the trainer made a mistake, but no-one's perfect. At least she wasnt' forcing Sacher to come out or anything, which many trainers would have done. I think Sacher's confidence will come back, just watch her carefully and ensure she is only allowed to play next week with selected pups until her confidence levels are back up.

Good luck,

Lindsay
x

dog training DOES go backwards sometimes, thats dogs & thats life!the trainer sounds fine to me. just keep doing your socalising

i'd also give things another chance. not least because this might have been a one-off and also because you don't unwittingly want to create a fear of training in sacher following one rather ill-advised (as it turns out) episode of free play. also, don't unwittingly transmit your anxiety. dogs are far quicker to shrug off things that we are likely to worry ourselves silly over. sacher will be meeting bigger and boisterous dogs out there in the real world as she grows up and will learn to cope all the better if you are calm and confident for her.

i also wouldn't confuse "socialisation" with completing homework tasks. introducing her to 20 dogs is a terrific achievement in a week but balanced socialisation involves exposing her to all manner of experiences that go way beyond meeting other dogs as i'm sure you know.

Thanks again everyone. i am strting to feel slightly more positive! I suppose the trainer was trying to keep everyone happy and as you say, she is only human! Don't worry Roz we have done new situations aswell! We have take n her to pubs, garden cebtres, fields, woods, the river to see sweans ducks boats etc, we've sat by the side of a road, been to the pet shop as well. We did have another bad experience today when i left sacher in the carin her harness asleep with the door open so i could hear her bark if she woke up while i went to collect some glasses from a house id been to. I could see her and i was only gone about 20 seconds when a labrador jumped into the car and Sacher was not a happy pup at all and we havn't seen any more dogs after that so we'l have to see how that goes.
Thanks again everyone

ooh, i like the sound of your socialisation! any room for an armless stowaway? only i fancy a nice day down by the river with a pub lunch afterwards! :D

sorry you've had another unhappy experience today though. it sounds like one of those bizarre one in a million incidents where all sorts of factors have to come into play at the same time but not surprised sacher was a bit taken aback.

lol roz as you can see we'r only socializing her with the important things! Sacher has just been playing with the 10 year old arthritic dog next door and she was fine so i don't think it has scarred her too much thank goodness! The dog even had to tell her a off a few times for getting a bit too big for her boots!

one of the first places we took our pup was the pub, he cant wait to get in one now, even will do without the walk first to get in the pub to be petted and fed.

lol Morgan, that's a good idea! First place I took my dog was shopping to the local market place. At first he was overwhelmed with all the people and happening (he was the shy one in the litter), but then he started liking it.
Tell me though, are dogs in UK allowed to go to the pubs?

>are dogs in UK allowed to go to the pubs?

Usually, yes. Some pubs don't allow them though - it's at the discretionof the landlord, because it's not against the law. (It's not actually against the law to take dogs into the dining areas of restaurants; they are, however, banned from the area where food is prepared.)

I wouldn't let her play with a dog which wanted to tell her off, especially not this pup, given what you have described of her experiences and her nature here.  Personally I don't let my pups play with any dogs which might tell them off, because I don't think pups need to be "told off" to develop into dogs with lovely natures.

i dont mind,as long as the older dog doesnt go OTT. i rarely socalise my pups with other pups,prefer to socalise them with dogs of all ages & sizes,so they can learn that not all dogs want to play.

most normal adult dogs will put up with quite alot from a pup, clearly id never let them socalise with anything really nasty.

pups that have only been socalised with other pups,can turn into bolshy monsters that are very "into" other dogs & cant read doggy body language.

we have a puppy school neaR ME & I CAN TELL A MILE OFF IF A DOG HAS BEEN THERE. lack of GOOD doggy manners,imo

When I went to puppy classes, I went to the same trainer twice. She was just so successful with my first dog, that I decided to go there again. We always kept our dogs on the leash as she said that the whole purpose of going to dog school is to teach our dogs how to concentrate on US not other dogs. And I have to say I agree with that. I don't need other dogs for my dog to get exercise. I run and play with him and all I want is for him to tolerate other dogs and come to me when called. I go to dog shows quite a lot and I don't need my dog to be concentrated on whatever's going on around him. I want him to be calm (used to all the things going on around him), non aggressive and friendly but slightly indifferent.
What we did was approach each other and greet while our dogs had to sit down and wait. After that we told them they're free (still on the leash) and they were able to sniff each other and play a little and the minute we called them they had to look at us again. They got the reward and slowly we got to the point when they were mostly paying attention to us........

Hi evilbeak - I'm sorry I didn't see your post when you posted it, but have been v busy.

I run puppy classes, and there are 2 major things wrong here - presumably the boxer and the lab from the class above were older than the puppies that would usually be in the puppy class?  That's a big no-no - there should be an age restriction on puppy classes and on the dogs allowed in them, and that should be very strict.  The only possible exception is if the trainer has a very well socialised adult dog which she brings along to give the pups a positive experience with an adult dog.

Secondly, the play that was happening with the boxer (or play like it) should be stopped immediately you see one dog dominating the other.  If you EVER EVER see one dog trying to get away, tucking tail between legs, acting avoidantly - you should INSTANTLY stop the play and then preferably try to let the pup play with only the smaller or quieter pups to gain more confidence.  Play should always be equal and consentual by both dogs.

I do have to say though, on your part, that you should be more assertive at class if you see something like this happening.  There's no point sitting there and worrying if something is doing your dog good or not - if you have ANY doubts, just go and pick your dog up and say you don't think it's a good experience for her.  You don't have to be rude to the trainer, just say that.  And if necessary, explain more after the class.  There is a problem at training classes that owners kind of "abdicate" responsibility when there is a trainer present.  They sit there and allow things to happen which they wouldn't in any other situation.  I know how easy it is to do this because I've done it myself in the past.  Just remind yourself that it's worth a bit of short-term social discomfort by picking your puppy up in order to prevent long-term problems for the life of your dog (potentially, not saying your pup will have them).

As for what you should do now - I'd recommend you go back to doing what you were doing before, letting Sacher meet loads of sociable dogs before the next class.  That seemed to have worked last time so hopefully will again.  You might find it slower going now - give lots of treats and praise and don't force her into meetings with them when she is afraid - go at her pace.

It sounds like the trainer realised that things hadn't gone to plan because she let Sacher off lead when the others were on lead and tried to give her her confidence back.  This was the right thing to do.  You might want to have a word with your trainer and just say that you're not happy with what happened that week and you don't think older dogs should be allowed into the puppy class.  I wouldn't stop going to this class because a lot of what they're doing sounds great besides the points I've mentioned above, and you can help prevent this from happening again by intervening yourself and being more pro-active. 

Puppies DO need to experience off lead play and socialisation with other dogs in order to learn how to communicate effectively with them.  They cannot adequately display body language and "speak" to each other properly when they are on a lead.  However, this time should be kept short to prevent puppies getting hyper and over-excited and the play becoming too rough.  Little and often is the key.  My class has just one short play session at the end of the class.

Thanks onewtwothree it's very reasurring getting advice from a trainer! The boxer and the labrador were both 17 weeks and Sacher was 15 weeks so there wasn't a huge age gap (Sacher had to start later because there wasn't space for a while but the other pups in her normal class are the same age. When Sacher was playing with the older dog (who is absolutely lovely) she was growled at a few times and she ran off with her tail between her legs but then she was quite happy just to run back up to the older dog to carry on playing. next week i'l keep a closer eye on things and possibly remove her if i see it happening again but me and the trainer allready have our 'differences' so i'l have to see how it goes. You're right i have definitley been handig over alot o resposibility to the trainer.
Thanks again

Ok, but big bouncy dogs like labs and boxers shouldn't be having freeplay sessions with smaller, timid puppies.  It's not a good idea letting all dogs off together - generally the ones which make best playmates together should be let off together, and then swapped and the others have a turn.  I wouldn't let her play off lead with the boxer or lab again.