went to beach today with our 4 dogs all of whom were under control- 3 off lead 1 on lead.

we saw probably a 4 month old lab pup being ALLOWED to run upto a strange gsd which was on lead! why did those people let their puppy run around free and approach much larger adult dogs which were being controlled?!

we saw them let the pup do this 3 times, the last time the pup was too boisterous and the gsd (somehow- didnt see it happen) made the pup scream and scream! how stupid can people be.... that pup may now have a fear of gsd?!

made me so angry- seeing a pup being let to run as it wished on a public busy beach?....

and there was us- 2 labs, and 2 terriers all minding their own business- attentive to their aware owners! if only more people were as aware and wise up...

I went to the car boot sale today with our pup and was just disgusted i saw at least 2 dogs on a flexi tied to a metal bar(the stall) they came running right up to our pup barking their heads off while the owners laughed oh she'd eat you for breakfast (poor girl is only 5months these dogs are 2yrs and over!) makes you wonder why large breeds are sometimes under socialised :rolleyes:

Nothing unusual about people walking with sticks in this area.  I often use one - I take one beating and my dogs have come to associate a stick with working, so behave much better when I have one.  If I tap it on the ground they all come in to heel.

I have encouraged my mum to use a hiking pole when she walks, simply for stability.  When the hillside is muddy, it's safer to walk with a stick.

However, its easy to understand that there are some areas where sticks aren't needed.

Little ones usually have fire in their bellys for the bigger dog and that's just the way it is. They tend to bark and snap andreally give it large. My big girl quietly looks down at them looking confused at the fuss they make. She must be thinking, "whats your problem?"

Then when she's had enough, she stamps on them.

I to have a problem with dogs while walking mine, I spent the first 2 years in socializing classes with my Akita doing the right responsible thing, I walk him with a 15ft horse lead and head collar and reel him in when I see a dog coming but due to irresponsible dog walkers we have been attacked on numerous occasions by big and small dogs alike, now I cant walk my dog without my oh been with me and I do walk with a metal hiking pole because we never know if a dog is bounding over to play or just wanting to have a pop at him, after all the hard work making him dog friendly my dog is on the defensive if he sees another dog running at him which I don't blame him, and im sorry but if my dog was off the lead and running towards your dog im sure you would be screaming your hart out before he was 5 meters away although he is dog friendly and would just play with it, responsibility has to come from both parties, it only takes 1 idiot to spoil a nice walk on a sunny day, I'm sorry if I sound rude its not my intension just I'm fed up with idiots thinking is ok to let there dog approach us with attitude and the say im sorry its not normal for him to act like this  or sorry he just doesn't like other dogs

you make it sound as if my dogs went charging up to this owner and dog but if you had read some of my last reponses you would know we were walking along minding our own business, sniffing the ground, not a care in the world, i'm sure you have had walks like this, and as i said before this bloke was just surprised to see us as we were him and now i think about it that was probably the problem.  Alas i'm not 8 feet tall so i could'nt see over the hedge and i can't see round corners either!!

Just a point Nettie.  If you are walking your Akita on a long line, please use a harness for him.  Dogs have had their necks broken by people using head collars and leads with long lines.  You can buy a body harness from any reputable pet stores.  Only use your headcollar for close control.  If you think of it, if you pull on the lead, the head turns round.  As you are at a distance, you don't have the same control and tend to jerk harder - thus the dog's neck may be jerked and cause injury - especially if he is running at speed.  I wouldnt want that to happen toyou as you are obviously a very caring owner who has taken time to train her dog.

Kind regards
Annie

It is a shame that we have to worry about our dogs running into trouble with others, as i feel this is where a lot of anxiety comes from when walking dogs, if they could just run up freely and meet dogs it would be a lot easier. I think with my dog as well it would take a bit of the excitement away if he wasn't held back from half the dogs we meet, it would become common place, when we first got him he was just as excited about meeting people when walking, and we sometimes had to lead him when there groups of kids, but now he just walks by. But like some people have said there dogs don't like other dogs and i would imagine they are always kept on lead. We always go on the principle if they are off lead ours stays off lead and is allowed to meet, if not we put his lead on and so far this has worked well. I luckily haven't come across a dog aggressive dog who was not on lead.

The problem is that there has to be a point when you first let a youngster off the lead - their recall is highly unlikely to be 100% and they will more than likely run up to other dogs - if you wait until they respond to a recall ALL the time that precious socialising period could well be past - are we really saying that we sould NEVER let our perfectly sociable  dogs off lead unless we can guarantee that they will come instantly ? - unrealistic I feel and what a sad world - one of the pleasures of dog ownership is meeting up with a bunch of doggy friends and watching the sheer joy that our dogs greet and play with each other - I've walked with up to 9 other dogs ( all breeds/shapes and sizes) I've introduced youngsters to the 'club' and yes they had to learn some manners and no they most certainly did not come back straight away - having too much fun mum :D - but they DID grow up to be happy sociable well balanced dogs.

I agree Marianne that Belgians can be flighty - that's why breeds like ours need this kind of socialising all the more - it's just too late once they start to grow up and hit the fearful stage .

Yvonne

PS - any sign of those pups yet ? :D :D

I don't agree I bought my Akita known that he must always be kept on a lead because of the nature he will always be unpredictable when I comes to dogs and small animals no matter how well he's trained, he has always walked on a long lead since 14wks old never been allowed to run free, that doesn't mean he cant socialize and play with other dogs he's just under control when he does, but if you know your dog is as what you say Belgians can be flighty then steps should be taken to avoid this but I do agree accidents do happen but sometimes they can be devastating results to incur, and yes I agree no dog should be allowed to run free until 100% recall has been achieved if you read my past posts even though my dog is never allowed to run free I still needed to teach him recall to be able to recall him in a emergency which paid off when he broke his collar, but I wonder what you would say if I walked over your field with my akita on a lead and your dog took flight bounding towards us and lets say my dog wasn't feeling himself your dog started to harass him and a fight broke out and my akita done some serious damage to your dog which could cost his life, who would be to blame me for having a Akita which has attacked your dog or would it be you for allowing your dog to be out of control? I know which 1 the news papers would point the finger at, or how you would react if I allowed my akita to run free and harass your dog think about it, if you want to take the risk then don't be upset when somebody gives you a mouth full or your dog gets hurt even by a stick as most people will defend their own dogs as if it were a child

If you are walking a dog that you KNOW is aggressive towards others then  you should not be using places where other folk have their dogs off lead - you have the dog with the problem :(-not them !. I'm convinced that there is a much higher incidence of 'dog aggressive' animals nowadays BECAUSE they have never beeen allowed to socialise properly with others. The results seem to be a growing number of poor dogs that can never be allowed off lead around others. Are you really saying that at 14 weeks your Akita was already so dog aggressive that you could not trust him unleashed ? ( if so what kind of dogs are we breeding )

Yvonne

Yvonne plz read my first post, my Akita is NOT DOG AGGRESSIVE and attended social classes for 2 years and will great dogs and play if they are willing, but he will defend himself against any dog that is willing to have a go, but due to irresponsible dog walkers letting THEIR DOGS ATTACK mine his attitude is now becoming defensive when he sees a dog running towards him but when the dog gets to him he will stand and let it sniff him, but most just come barking and growling wanting a fight. And at 14wks old he was like any other puppy wanting to play with every dog he met but I asked the dog walkers first if it was ok, not just letting him run up to it first, and an Akita is naturally aggressive and any breeder or Akita book will tell you never let an Akita off the lead due to a high pray drive and they are very self willed are suffer from selected deafness, so as a responsible person I do what im told by the breeder and respect other dog walkers by not letting him do what he wants and when he wants, and as for the not walking where dogs are off lead why should any dog owner with a aggressive breed under control ON A LEAD suffer because people want to let there dogs do as they wish. That's why retraceable lead were invented dogs still have their freedom but under control at the same time. There is a good saying "AN AKITA WILL NEVER START A FIGHT BUT WILL CERTINALY FINISH ONE"
Hopefully mine wont I have done every thing to prevent it and he's never bitten another dog but has many scars from bites by others

Yes, in an ideal world we would be able to let out dogs approach other dogs willy nilly, but sadly this is not an ideal world. My rescue dog can be a bit iffy with some other dogs, its not something i asked for, not something i created and i am doing my best to rectify it. Don't you think we feel bad enough having a dog like that and then you tell us that we are the ones with the problem and should go elsewhere. How do you think this makes people feel. I know of someone on another board with a gsd with autism (diagnosed by Angela Stockdale), he just can't cope with dogs approaching him and will pin them. THe owner has been to hell and back trying to help him, but now that he has been diagnosed she knows that she can only prevent him from pinning dogs. WHy should she be punished for being unlucky and having a special needs dog? Imagine if someone with an autistic son was told he was not allowed to go to the park because he may hit another child? People would be up in arms about it. Ok its a bit of an extreme example, but i don't think that kind of attitude helps anyone. There is a perfectly good happy medium. Be vigilant and control your dog. I am trying to socialise my dog and so look out for the friendly ones and also for the ones i think he won't be anle to cope with. If i see a dog i don't think he can manage i will pop him on lead and distract him. (He doesn't actually make contact, its just a lunge in anything - behaviourist reckons he wants to play, but becuase of lack of socialisation he doesn't know how to ask nicely. ) If i saw anyone do the same i would keep my dogs away, but if they saw me and made no moves to keep their dogs away i will allow my other dogs to politely go and sniff. The others are very polite. Its just common sense, you know how well you can control your dogs so make sure that you are vigilant for anything that you may need to prepare for. For example if i see a bunch of people having a picnic my gundogs will go on lead because i know i won't be able to recall them once they spot it. Everyone has the odd day when something goes wrong and the dog fails to listen, but that i don't mind. As long as they are making an effort to control their dogs i don't see a problem. As someone has said before it is not just aggressive dogs that you have to be careful about. My friends dog had a hip replacement not so long ago and needed lead exercise to build up strength, but obviously soft ground is more comfortable, especially if they drag a foot slightly, so they couldn't keep away from doggy areas. A boisterous dog could have done a lot of damage had they approached her. It only takes a bit of common sense.

Opps, forgot to say, that my biggest problem is actually that many other dog owners dislike their dogs talking dog. I see nothing wrong with an older dog telling off a pup or giving a warning etc, but there are an awful lot of dogs owners who know next to nothing about dog language and will go mad if your dog were to do such a thing, which is another reason why i tend to avoid other dogs. Its not the dogs reaction that worries me its the owner.

I think thats a good point to make, as i was always a little wary of other dogs growling at my dog, but have now found afterwards he calms down and gets along fine i think it must have been his playful nature upset the older dog, on the other hand if the other dog is as playful as he is they also get along well but in a different way.

My dogs are mostly better behaved now, but they often used to be slightly boisterous and annoying to older dogs when they were puppies. Obviously I only let them play with dogs who I had got to know and knew wouldn't have a real go at them, but the owners often say 'don't growl at him ***', and I'd say 'no, they need to be taught the lesson'! If I see a dog coming, particularly on lead, or of a breed I know mine aren't keen on, they go back on the lead so I can control them if necessary. They're mostly ok just to say 'that's enough now, come on' and they will. :-)

I see a lot wrong with an older, strange dog, taking it upon itself to tell off a pup.  This situation is entirely artificial and would only very rarely happen naturally - (ie wolf packs).  Wolves (and well socialised dogs) will let puppies get away with blue murder for a long time, because they know they are puppies and still learning about the world and the rules of the world and how to behave in it.  Not only that, but in the wild adults can move away from the pups if they want to - there is abundant space and no 2 dogs are forced into a small area and made to share it.   This is entirely different when dogs are on leads or when dogs are sharing their house with a puppy, often with no where to retreat to.

The other danger is that people find it incredibly hard to "read" dog language and what is really happening in an interaction.  We might assume it is a harmless "telling off" when really the telling off was far too extreme for what the pup actually did, and is the result of a badly socialised dog over-reacting to a puppy in a way which will cause future damage to that puppy and increase the chances of that pup developing aggression him/herself.

Puppies learn from how they are treated.  If they are treated aggressively by other dogs when pups, they are at an increased risk of growing up to exhibit aggression themselves.  There have been studies carried out to prove this - in one experiment they took the litter of a dam with a lovely temperament and exchanged it with the litter of a dam with a pretty nasty temperament.  The litter which was brought up by the nasty dam turned out to have a very high incidence of aggression in, when the pups reached adulthood.  Genetics were ruled out in this case, as the pups had come from the dam with the lovely temperament and she had had a previous litter with the same sire which had produced pups with lovely temperaments.  The results were entirely the result of the pups being raised by a dam with a less than ideal temperament - they learnt from how they were treated by their own mother, they learnt that aggression solves problems and is the way to deal with things, and they then became aggressive themselves as a result.

For what it's worth, this is my take on it:

Be protective of your pups, keep them away from ALL strange dogs.  For socialisation go to more than one training class a week with them when they are puppies and allow them to socialise there with pups and dogs you know are friendly.  Ideally these classes should involve very highly controlled play sessions off lead, short and where the trainer has the experience and knowledge to intervene if anything might possibly go wrong.  Seek out your friends' dogs which you know are friendly, and watch the dogs that walk in your area interact with several other strange dogs first, before you decide whether you can risk letting your puppy meet those dogs. 

Never allow your puppy to run up to a dog on lead.  If you see another strange dog off lead, I would recall the puppy, put puppy on lead, and most times try to avoid meeting the other dog.  If the other person allows their dog to then run up to your puppy, when your puppy is on the lead, I would be v angry and would confront them regardless of how friendly their dog is (how do they know your dog/puppy isn't aggressive and isn't on the lead for a reason - why are they allowing their dog to run up to yours and risk a confrontation etc etc)?  What should happen is both parties should put their dog on lead at the sight of the other, and either then walk past each other or approach.  If you decide to go for the approach and to let your puppy meet this other dog - watch the dog at the approach of your puppy and see what his/her body language is.  If it looks at all aggressive, then don't risk it - just stop walking and say hi to the owner and then walk on and don't let your puppy meet that dog. 

> but in the wild adults can move away from the pups if they want to - there is abundant space and no 2 dogs are forced into a small area and made to share it.

Exactly. So in the park or in the fields the adults can get away, or tell the pup to clear off, because they're not being forced on-lead to stay close, as they would be in a regimented 'training' situation.

Yes, but that type of "well adjusted dog reaction" also presupposes that the strange adult dog is well-socialised, will not over-react to your puppy, actually likes or is neutral to puppies in the first place (some dogs hate puppies and don't understand them) and so on - and you just don't know that about strange dogs you meet out on walks, and personally I would want to be closer to the dogs to be able to intervene should the meeting go wrong.  Which actually does mean them being on lead, at least at first.

Just like life in general, really. You take your chances and hope for the best. :)

>Imagine if someone with an autistic son was told he was not allowed to go to the park because he may hit another child? People would be up in arms about it.

When I see every child in a playground being formally introduced to all the others before they're allowed to play with one another I'll accept that it's normal for other animals too. ;) In the meantime I'll encourage children (and dogs) to make friends their own way. :)

We have an autistic child in our street who has taken a liking to Tyler, and he manages to mix with children with the help of his twin brother, as children do to a certain age they accept things as they are, maybe as with people it's the teen years and adulthood when problems occur.

On the other hand those caring for special needs children/adults and animals for that nature have a responsibility too. 

At Crufts I was womaniing the discover dogs booth with my Kizi when two women stopped and she was being fussed by one while she asked questions, adn totally out of the blue the other one smacked poor Kizi open handed and hard on the head.

It only then became appatent that she did not ahve all her mental faculties, but suppose Kizi hadn't been so forgiving????

Definatley only the other day i saw one of the boys pulling Tylers tail as i asked them to bring him in, he would not come with me as obviously kids are more interesting, luckily he thought nothing of it. We have touched his tail since we had him ( ooh that could sound rude ), so it's normal to him, but yes i agree supervision is necessary. You just have no idea what people think is appropriate with dogs, as i was saying to a friend we often have young girls coming over and hugging my dog, which i don't have a problem with as i di it myself, some people may not agree and some dogs don't like this.

"but becuase of lack of socialisation he doesn't know how to ask nicely. " - my point exactly !

I also agree that most problems are caused because people don't know how to 'read dog'- they misunderstand normal dog pack behaviour and so never allow their animals to interact normally with others - how many times do we see the owners of small dogs pick them up when another dog aproaches - hello ? - it's a DOG - it's a pack animal and has centuries of hard wiring to enable it to communicate with other dogs - if we give it a chance.

Yvonne

>how many times do we see the owners of small dogs pick them up when another dog aproaches

This is my bug bear In the New Forest over easter I was running my boys with the bikes, man comes along with small dog (well a giant Yorkie ) , sees mine and picks it up :rolleyes: now Fagan who doesnt usually bother with other dogs found it most interesting that this dog was being carried so started jumping up at the guy to see what he had   As guy was walking away I said to him "why dont you let him walk" and he grunted "I will in a minute" so I told him that his dog would never get used to others if he kept picking it up.  I mean isnt the point of a walk for dogs to meet other doggy friends

On saying this I can understand owners of delicate breeds such as Chi's as a big boundy dog could do some damage.

I think I can see both sides of the coin to some degree.  I have two Westies and one really enjoys playing rough and tumble with other dogs, whereas the other one is OK with small dogs but scared of big ones.

Yesterday, we happened upon a big, friendly boxer who started chasing my two around.  Long story short, one of my dogs loved it, the other one started squeaking and running away with her tail wrapped under her bum and came over to me.  So when the boxer started to come back towards me again, I scooped my scaredy dog up and the boxer went off to play with my other dog again.

Now, if this boxer had started jumping up at me and persisted in doing so, I may well have been cross and posted a narked message on here about other people not being able to control their dogs.  If that owner had then said "why don't you let her walk" and then told me that my dog would never get used to other dogs if I kept picking her up, I would have told them to mind their own business and posted an even more narked message on here, about people sticking their beaks into matters that are nothing to do with them.

Some little dogs do find bigger dogs intimidating and this Yorkie (or any of the other little dogs that get picked up) might be picked up for good reason, because the owners know their own dogs and what they like and don't like.  Yes, *one* of the points of a walk is to socialise with other dogs, but to me, the overall purpose of a walk is for dogs and humans alike to enjoy themselves, and my little dog doesn't enjoy playing with big dogs, even if they are lovely, friendly doofus's like the boxer we met yesterday, so I will pick her up for her happiness and comfort if I think she wants it.

So I think there's two sides to most stories and I personally don't think people picking a small dog up (even if it's for no good reason) is a form of cruelty, or a matter that's going to have any effect on my and my dog's lives, so I don't get wound up by it and let them get on with it, if they wish to.  It might be irritating, if it makes large dog owners feel their dogs are being looked at as vicious, drooling Yorkie eaters, but at the end of the day, I don't feel it does any harm to other parties and I also feel that tolerance is the key to making life in general more pleasant and enjoyable for everyone.  (Am off to hug a tree now !!)

Hi ClaireyS, this is what happened when my dog went for that dog the other week.  the woman picked her dog up and mine went for a nosey but when it started growling it stopped being a game for mine.   it was a horrible situation but I'm now extrememly cautious about other dogs incase mine responds to the other dog who is noising her up - while safe in its owners arms!

Allowing a dog - However friendly, whatever size and whatever breed to gallop up to an on lead dog in a rude and boisterous fashion is quite simply UNFAIR.  I do not care 'how friendly he is' it can be seen is intimidating and frightening to an on lead dog however well socialised (or not) it may be.  If you cannot call your dog out of an approach to an on lead dog at whatever speed it is travelling you are BREAKING THE LAW as you will not be in control of your dog in a public place.
I find it amazing that the lady who owns 2 x yorkies by me - that are constantly off lead and terrorising other dogs by barking in their faces accuses me of having an iffy dog because I prefer to lead walk some days and I allow my hound to tell them off (by way of an approriate 'back off' warning) once she has had enough of this constant rudeness in her face. 
The best socialised dog in the world can be ruined by some ignorant owner of a dog that finds it acceptible to allow their dog to jump on others on lead.
I find the best way to allow dogs to run and chase together is to discuss with other owners prior to allowing such games or better still - attend organised dog walks where individual charachters are assessed for compatibility with each other, again prior to being allowed to interact.  It helps if you understand canine body language to!
Sarah

>I find the best way to allow dogs to run and chase together is to discuss with other owners prior to allowing such games or better still - attend organised dog walks where individual charachters are assessed for compatibility with each other, again prior to being allowed to interact

i wish i could say "you cannot be serious!!!" but it'd be disrespectful and unfair because sadly, i suspect you are quite serious. what on earth has happened to the commonsense world of dog ownership that i thought i live in? the one where you socialise a pup and, in the process, expect it to learn doggy language from its canine peers? sure, you will occasionally come across a dog without manners or a dog that's just plain grumpy but it does a pup no harm at all to learn how to cope with these vagaries in temperament or behaviour.

only in my world you take the dog out for a walk with a optimistic spirit and as much commonsense as you can muster. for sure you don't go accompanied with some sort of compatibility chart that rules out association with any dog who hasn't been previously assessed!

i honestly feel that if people stopped looking for all these dire psychological problems and just got on with enjoying their dogs then there'd be far fewer neurotic dogs and neurotic owners.

You said it better than I could, Roz.

When my dog is off lead, I will ask the owner of an approaching dog if it would like a play with mine - if yes I will let mine off again.  When my dog is on lead I do not want others rushing up to her, barking in her face or jumping on her.
Since the age of 15 weeks my dog has been going on training + socialisation group walks every other Saturday morning where a trainer assesses personality types and compatibility before dogs are run together.  It is a perfect opportunity to practice recalls around distractions as well as learn more abourt canine body language/subtle messages.
Unfortunately despite some peoples best efforts there are people (probably you Roz) who think it acceptible to let their dogs worry others that are on lead.
I find my approach a rather acceptible one thank you very much.  Perhaps you might change your minds when your dogs are ruined by other bad mannered ones.
Sarah

I would just like to clear this up once again.  My dog did not charge, gallop or run up to this dog in anyway shape or form.  We were walking along like i said twice before minding our own business and was caught by surprise by this bloke and as soon as i saw him called my dogs back which they did and In my orginal post i never say he ran up to him.  I wish i had never post this on here because people don't read the posts properly and jump to the wrong conclusions.  Writing on here has caused me more upset then the actually incident and i will not be doing it again.

>Unfortunately despite some peoples best efforts there are people (probably you Roz) who think it acceptible to let their dogs worry others that are on lead.

no. i don't think it is acceptable to let my dog worry others that are on leads. which is why i trained him from very young puppyhood to do no such thing. however, i didn't need a doggy compatibility chart to achieve this. instead, i tended to rely on commonsense and as much exposure as possible to other dogs in natural surroundings. not contrived control groups.

in fairness maybe it is different where you live, sarah but, out here where we keeps our trousis up with baler twine, our dogs tend to live by a simpler set of values which involves freedom for pups to meet, greet and learn to behave with respect and good manners lest their canine elders tell their fortunes for 'em!

a girl after my own heart Roz ! - lets stop analysing every twitch that our dogs do and just let them be dogs - after all left to their own devices they do not fill in a compatability chart before sniffing each other bums :D - youngsters soon learn how to behave round other older dogs IF we stop interveneing each time they are growled at or put in their place - we're the ones with the problems NOT the dogs.

Yvonne

Ah but you're obviously not studying for an 'ology' or trying to make a living as a canine behaviourist, are you Trevor? :rolleyes:

What is wrong with allowing a timid or nervous dog to run with one that wont bully it?  The concept is exactly the same as a puppy socialsation one that you would experience in a training class - You know the ones that everyone with a pup is recommended to go on where their dog can learn better social skills etc.  Why is it so amusing that this can be done in an outdoor situation with a trainer supervising and teaching owners exactly what their dogs are saying to each other?  I personally think it is a very civilised and sensible way to let dogs interact and learn better social skills (even if it means they get the odd telling off at times from other dogs.)
As well as this my dog is exercised of lead in public parks and walked on lead around roads.  Perhaps I have it all wrong - Perhaps I should find it perfectly acceptable for bully and boisterous dogs to charge up to mine and jump on her or bark at her face?  Perhaps I should ignore her sometimes worried submissive behaviour or even her over the top 'back offs' now she uses every time a lab runs up to her.
I know - I will let her sprint up to dogs so she can worry them instead - Big black sighthounds are good at that!!  

Have to say, I entirely agree with Rozzer.  Although the idea of a compatibility chart is perhaps going a bit far, the mental equivalent is a great idea - it is by far preferable to strictly control the interactions which your pups have and only to select playmates you know they will have a positive experience with.  Pups do NOT need to be "told off" by adults in order to grow into well adjusted dogs!!!  I have dogs which will prove that, as none of them have been told off or experienced any type of aggression (including even a growl) when pups, and in turn, none of them have exhibited any type of aggression (even a growl) to any other dog - including bouncy puppies which want to jump all over them - they just turn away. 

At my classes I frequently see puppies which have been allowed to run up to all kinds of dogs and interact with them.  They almost all have problems in free play sessions with other puppies - they are aggressive, or afraid.  And this is as young puppies!!!

i agree with roz. the whole fun about owning a dog is that you get to see your dogs enjoy themselves with other dogs. if people have an undersocialised or agressive dog then it is their responsibility to keep it under control not everyone elses to stop their dog going up to other dogs until they have filled in a compatability chart.

jack 29, I think your post has diversified into peoples own experiences and thoughts on a larger issue, its no longer about your post specifically , so please dont take it personally, there are so many different opinions out there and this is one of them! Hope you still visit.

You are right Morgan.  Jack29 this has always been a subject that will receive a different response everytime its posted - my comments were specific to other comments not your original one.
Maybe one day when certain peoples dogs have been ruined or scared into showing fear aggression by others their opinions will change? 

Totally with you on this Roz - 100%    The world of dog training /behaviour etc is getting a tad too close to paranoid IMO.  Happy, friendly, well adjusted dogs are produced by happy, friendly, common sense and fairly simplistic socialisation methods and sure as egs is eggs don't need "control groups" :rolleyes:

regards, Teri :)

It's obviously up to individual owners the degree to which they want their pups to run up and play with other dogs off lead and outside of their control.  Sure - if you're lucky, the dogs they meet will be well adjusted and they will learn only good things.  And most dogs will be like this.  But if you're unlucky, well... Let's just say that I know someone whose puppy was killed by a staffie this weekend past - absolutely tragic.  What happened?  Well, the puppy ran up to the staff and both were off lead....

None of us can prevent idiots walking their aggressive dogs off lead and unmuzzled.  You can't tell if a dog you see is one of these from sight alone and at a distance.  Why play Russian roulette with your puppy's temperament??  Why not control the lessons s/he learns more closely? 

The same reason, I suppose, as people still choose to walk in secluded places, with or without a dog, even though occasionally people get attacked and sometimes murdered doing just that. Sometimes bad things happen.

Except there are far fewer murderers out there than aggressive dogs...

And except humans have police to keep law and order...dogs have about 1 dog warden per council with limited powers and a law which is in many ways unworkable.

I don't think either are very common.  I've known one murderer in my lifetime and just two aggressive dogs in 30 years of dog walking, neither statistic seems worth working a lifestyle around :)

>humans have police to keep law and order...

Well that's certainly the theory!

It's about calculation of risk depending on where you live.  I guess the same thing applies when letting dogs off lead mingle, meet and greet. 

We have the RSPCA on our doorstep and the walkers take the dogs down our neck of the woods on lead.  Some regulars around here walk their dogs on lead, but the majority are off lead.  The dog runs by another in close proximately without batting an eyelid or they are too busy playing ball or scenting to make a beeline for every dog.  You get to know who's who and what their dogs like/ dislike etc. There's the occasional stranger who lets their dog run riot but they don't appear to hang around. 

Sometimes people are more tolerant of a specific breed than others, my GSD's sometimes get a wary look from strangers.  Bearing this in mind, I do not let my 2 bound over to strange dogs and strange owners, you never know what reception you might get and sometimes it's the owners you need to be more wary off, than the dog.  But with dogs and people I know, it's no problem.  My girl can't be bothered with other dogs (she's blind now) although as a young dog she would bounce over in a play bow; it was so funny watching her.  My lad is still very bouncy and especially loves people and young dogs/pups.  He's play daft.

We were just talking about a lady and her dog that we saw today who now keeps her distance.  A few years ago, her dog came dashing up to Spender, chasing him.  The tables turned and Spender chased her dog in the direction of the owner, who then gave us a rollicking for allowing our dog to chase hers.     Aaaaaaahhhh... you can't win... .....:rolleyes:

That's what a long line is for, Yvonne - for pups who don't have a 100% recall yet.

Good to see you back, speaking plain common sense, no nonsense English again Roz..