when there is the same breed but with diffrent coats ie standard long haired dachund and standard smooth haired dachund can u breed them together and would you be able to get them kennel club regested? im just wondering about this not planing to do it ever.

emily

when there is the same breed but with diffrent coats ie standard long haired dachund and standard smooth haired dachund can u breed them togetherYes and would you be able to get them kennel club regested?Only as X breeds on the actitivies register

They are not the same breed BTW Rough & Smooth Border Collies are one breed, the various coats in Dachshunds(& the sizes)are different breeds,

ok thanks my boss has a long haired chi cross with a smooth haired chi thats y i was wondering

You used to be able to register the puppies from parents with the same coat type as the breed with the coat they resembled most, but that stopped many many years ago. It still happens in some breeds Smooth Collie litters very occasionally have a Rough in them for example. But they now cannot be registered as Roughs as the KC recognise the two coat types as different breeds

Technically your boss's dog is a crossbreed, as nowadays the two types are classified as different breeds.

can someone explain how this works in BSDs now days! cheers!

Because the split is still comparatively recent, I've often wondered what happens with the pups that resemble an ancestor with a different coat type, from when they were all one breed. Is a Malinois-looking pup from two Tervueren parents (for example) registerable?

Re BSDs, we're on a slippery slope with KC at the moment as cross-registration is due to be abolished in a couple of years.  Currently, in the long coated varieties, Tervueren born of Groenendael matings (the most commonly occurring - i.e. very regularly!) are registered by their own coat & colour variety.  It is much less common to have blacks born from red x red matings but again, if this were to happen, they would currently be registered as Groenendael.

It's been many years since I've heard of Malinois x Malinois (short coated variety) producing a Tervueren; never heard of Tervueren to Tervueren producing a Malinois and black in either the short or rough coated varietes has always been strictly a no-no

regards Teri :)     

yes that is what i thought was happening! just checking!:  :)

what do you think will happen when the KC no longer allow it? is the breed making plans now. eg,if you get a trev pup from two grons,is it ok to breed from the grons again?is it ok (breed clubs eyes) to then breed on from the pup?

are you allowed a trevx gron mating?

Hi Michelled,

IV matings were prohibited entirely 6 years ago.  Had the KC and their *expert* Malcolm Willis shown any knowledge of the genetics of the breed and mode of inheritance, they would have foreseen that it is virtually impossible to prevent Tervueren appearing in Groenendael litters - many influential dogs share these varieties in their pedigrees, rightly so, and they will always crop up.  Our breed is too new and gene pool too small for there to be any guarantees because at one time TxG, TxM and MxL were all allowable.  Mother Nature doesn't give up easily - nor do the fans of our breed ;)

The Breed Clubs intend, as far as I'm aware, to seek an extension of the cross-registration facility.  In the event of that being declined, we will almost certainly see two BSDs of the same variety representing separate varieties in the BOB rings at champ shows!   IMO no genuine enthusiast of the breed would knock an outstanding example of a Tervueren shown as a Groenendael if it was the best dog - crazy rule :rolleyes:

At one time in Eire there were "red Groenendaels" registered - did OK as far as I recall :D

Whether to breed on from, for eg., 2 Groenendaels which produced Tervueren would be entirely the choice of the dogs' owners.  Personally, I wouldn't dream of knocking a BSD on colour and stay firmly of the opinion that we are one breed with four separate varieties - just as in our country of origin.

regards, Teri   

an interesting result of the ending of the present registration proviso would mean that it would - in the future - be perfectly possible to do an IV mating by using a red Groen ( Terv really) to a black Groen -surely just what the KC DIDN'T want to happen, we have a fairly unique situation  re the genetic make up of our breed and the KC should have been guided by the country of origin.

by the way long coated and smooth coated dachs/collies etc are not separate breeds just different varieties of the SAME breed.

Yvonne

OK, I give in - what is a BSD please?

BSD = Belgian Shepherd Dog :)

The short coat is dominant, the long recessive therefore you cannot get a Malinois pup from 2 Tervueren parents. :) I didn't even get any longcoats when I had my accidental litter Golden Ret x Malinois proving my bitch doesn't carry LH (despite having a Tervueren great grandfather). Tervs were used in the beginning to cross to Malinois as this was allowed then and of course the genepool was small, but as far as I know all of these produced only Malinois. The breeds were considered 4 separate breeds again in 2000 -thank goodness!

My cat breeds are much the same -I breed Persians and Exotics. The Exotic is a cat with the exact same type (and therefore breed standard) as the Persian, but with a short coat. You can still mate Persian x Exotic, and any SH kittens are registered as Exotcs. However any LH kittens from such a mating (or from 2 shorthairs that carry LH) are registered as Exotic Variants and cannot be shown. Again 2 longhairs cannot produce a shorthair.

>The breeds were considered 4 separate breeds again in 2000 -thank goodness!

We were never four separate breeds!   Prior to the KC's 1995 melting pot we were one breed, but four separate varieties, with permitted IV breeding between certain coat types :)

regards, Teri

AH well Teri you lot wth t'hairy thingies tend to call yours Belgian Shepherds but some of us with proper dogs :P :P I think see them (M&L) more as breeds than varieties. (Why can't I have a smiley with a tongue sticking out!)
But of course you are right really ssshh.

thanks,so much,teri trevor & goldmali. thats very helpful & interesting.
i have a hankering for a terv for ob...(maybe...one day!;))

Aw go for a Mali! :D :D There 2 litters about at the moment where I know there are pups still available. :P

dont! there are some mals about that i "love" & then others that im not too keen on.
they are getting popular in ob now.
are you finding you are getting enqueries from ob people?

Not really, no, it tends to be more agility and working trials so far.

A friend of mine has a mali bitch in A & B & she is gorgeous Her set exercises are spot on & her heelwork looks good, but I've not judged her so can only comment as a steward/obverver. I've never been into smooth coated breeds(don't class GSDs as smooth ;) ) but since having my Rjj(smooth BC)& seeing her precision & drive I could be tempted after I get my Sable working GSD in the future !

3 ticket handlers have them now,it will be interesting to see what happens to the breeds ob popularity if they get them into ticket!or working well in c

The dad of one of mine (stud dog I used last time) is working obedience and his owner certainly has his sights set high -he's in A at the moment I think, last time I heard anyway. I've only seen him work NFC but that was wonderful. I'd love to see more of Malis working. Am trying hard with my one year old but I'm the one who needs to learn the most I think. :D It's him I go to Paddy with.

I might get to judge Pauline's bitch tomorrow-lol last time she was drawn under me & had won the day before so she didn't work her :( I was gutted I wanted to see her work from a judges point of view even a training round !

MM have you ever seen lyn luckocks terv freya work? OMG she is stunning!!!! & lyn is AMAZING she does the best training rounds ive ever seen!

Not yet & of course she & I missed Crufts too :( There are some lovely dogs working at the moment, lol with a bit of luck there will be a few in my ring tomorrow ;)

If I remember rightly Freya's litter brother is a breed champion and both from their breeder's first litter - great to hear of the versatility of our breed being enjoyed across the disciplines :)

regards, Teri

yes im 99% sure thats correct!