After speaking with a trainer (who never actually met my dog),about my dog and his lunging on lead behaviour, , i am now paranoid he is going to turn into a dominant monster! I was told he is exerting dominant behaviour and have been researching dominance on the internet, on some sites it lists dominant behaviour which some of my dog does do, does anyone else recognise these behaviours in there dogs? Here are some of the dominant signs:-

Pushing through doors, inside or outside, before you.

Jumping or reaching for food or treat before it is put down or in reach.

Putting his or her feet on you, standing on or pawing at you.

Barking at you when told to do something or when he or she wants something.

Trying to be physically taller than you.

Getting on furniture before you or before being given permission.

Reluctance to move from a spot you want to sit on, walk through or put something in.

Reluctance to release food or toys.

Staring at you; prolonged eye contact except when you ask for it in a training or working situation.

Reluctance to obey simple, normal commands such as sit, go-out, get-off, etc. May be a refusal or slow compliance.

Marking (urinating or defecating) in house, marking your personal belongings or bed.

Running into you or jumping on you hard during play. This is a display of physical superiority and rights.

Growling or barking at you during play.

Sexual behaviors, such as mounting, with an inappropriate partner.

Putting her or his head on or over your head or shoulders.

Holding chews or toys against you while chewing or playing with toy.

Any attempt to shove you out of the way when walking, sitting with, moving past or laying with you.

Mouthing you at any time, any placing of her or his mouth on you whether in protest, during play or during petting.

Eating before you.

Not accepting petting or touching on top of his or her head or body.

Getting playful or cute instead of obeying when told to do things. The dog may obey briefly and immediately resume previous behavior.

Guarding food, toys or locations that they see as theirs.

Oh dear - apart from soiling indoors, making inappropriate sexual advances and not accepting being touched on the head it would seem I've raised a significant number of monsters :rolleyes: :D  Oh, they don't guard food/toys/personal space either ;)

This sounds like the type of trainer to avoid- at all costs!

regards, Teri :P

Those things just sound either like an untrained dog or normal dog behaviour to me .....other people I'm sure will be able to provide links that discuss 'dominance' theory which, for me, pretty much dispells it.

See this is where i got confused, Tyler does some things but not all, he will lie against us when chewing bones, but has no beef when asked to drop them. He also has a lot of eye contact, but if me and my husband have a heated discussion he takes himself into his bed. So we have a bit of mixture. He also does lie in the kitchen doorway which does annoy me, but when we started to nudge him to move him sometimes he misjudged and we would end up bumping into each other. He also put paws on us and sometimes beats us through doors. I am just curious really as to other peoples experience.

I feel so very sad upon reading what you've posted. This was what was believed about 30 years ago, you will find some trainers will frighten owners like this, and it can upset the relationship between owner and dog and make the owner believe all sorts :(
Such as, if the dog pulls it is dominant, if it tries to jump up it is dominant, if it tries to put it's paws on you and give you a kiss, it's dominant.

I wish I could give you "the history of dog training" as it would explain it all. I hardly know where to start :P

Military trainers and police used to train very much with dominance in mind. The monks of New Skete recommended alpha rolls and John Fisher recommended pack theory (IE don't let your dog on the bed etc) in his books. Nowadays things have changed as there are plenty of effective trainers not using pack theory, we understand the biology of behaviour better, and realise after much research (Mech, Coppinger etc) that dogs are not really like wolves, that the wolf pack theory was bad science anway, and that comparing dogs to wolves is more like comparing us humans to Neanderthals. The more well known trainers who had advocated dominance, such as the monks of NS and John Fisher, did a U turn on their original advice (see JFs "Diary of a Dotty Dog Doctor) and nowadays all behaviour problems can be solved by using an understanding of how dogs learn and applying it correctly. The key word is "correctly" :P

See wwww.dog-dominance.co.uk for a snippet of info, and if you want to try another trainer see www.apdt.co.uk as they should be up to date hopefully with their understanding of both dogs and humans.

Lindsay
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This post struck a chord with me. My dog pulls and because my trainer said it was a sign of dominance it actually spoilt our walks for quite a long time. I dreaded taking him out, I was uptight which he obviously picked up on and I felt I had failed and I was going to have an uncontrollable dog. That is not how it has turned out. I learned to relax and accept that Toby was not going to always get it right and I realised it was excitement that made him pull so bad. As he has matured he has settled down and walking him is now a pleasure. It was my attitude I needed to change so that I was able to teach Toby correctly. Because I am calmer so is he. My trainer even had me move Toby out of his bed when he was fast asleep and sit in it to assert my authority!! I feel much more comfortable teaching him how to behave  correctly than feeling that what I am doing is correcting a dominant nature.
jane

My trainer even had me move Toby out of his bed when he was fast asleep and sit in it to assert my authority!! I feel much more comfortable teaching him how to behave  correctly than feeling that what I am doing is correcting a dominant nature.

Glad you were able to sort things out for yourself and Toby, Jane :)

Lindsay
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I'm sorry, but the only polite response to that is: what a load of old toot!Almost all of those can be put down to bad manners or excitement, not 'dominance'.

Have a look at this link - it explains things very clearly.

Ahh good, those are theories i have always believed, just think i am feeling a little insecure with things at the moment. Thankyou for the link.

I hope it helps - please, relax! Your dog isn't a monster! He's like 99% of other dogs - enthusiastic and boisterous, and trapped in a world of aliens who don't speak his language!

It makes me cross when people are told that, if their dog barks when he wants something, he's obviously planning to take over the world! If I'm distracted, or asleep, and my dog needs to relieve himself, I darned well want him to bark to let me know he needs to go out. I don't want him to either be uncomfortable or mess in the house - obviously if he barks at the back door I'm going to let him out - but it's not because he's showing dominance, it's because, not having hands, he can't open the door himself. ;)

I do feel better, i have always found him to be a very friendly dog especially with young children, but was a little worried to read some of these traits are thought upon as dominant. Now my mind is at rest i can concentrate on more pressing issues like making my husbands tea :).

Oh dear, I do detest that word 'dominance'.....I have Labradors and if they did not jump, rush through doors, counter surf, check every pocket/hand etc for food, etc etc etc, I would be worried.... ;)

All joking aside, yes many of these are annoying, but easily avoided with training, it has nothing to do with 'dominance' whatsoever.... my dogs all go through the door 1st, having 9 of them, its easier for me, yet outside the house, or getting into the car etc, they wait,.... They get on the sofa when I am about to sit down, because they know thats where they get cuddles....I allow it (and enjoy it)

Good training brings good manners. A dog does not know what the ground rules are, you set them :D

I would certainly look for another trainer

My dog also does some but not all of these things, but I don't think he is dominant. He will accept correction and carry out commands (sometimes!) I think all dogs will push boundaries in some way, its training that makes them into the kind of well mannered pets that we want and helps them to understand how to behave. Different breeds behave in different ways. My cairn will always go through a door first if I let him but my yorkie wouldn't dream of it. My cairn doesn't always like having his head stroked but he enjoys fuss in other ways I think that is his preference. I say he is "bolshy" but I don't consider him dominant as I still feel I have control. I think the article that JG has posted says it all, it puts things in perspective and makes much more sense to me.
jane

Oh dear, going by that list, my dogs are not only dominant but aspire to world domination :rolleyes: You have been warned :D

I would say most of thsoe are signs of willfulness, maybe lack of training and sheer rudeness, but dominance????  In my expereince people and dogs will do what they are allowed to get away with and will act differenetly with diferent people.

Oh Dear! :rolleyes:
Shaynlola, looks like ours aspire to rule the world together! :D :D

Hey Missie, my Cavalier says your dogs will have to wait because he owns the world and always has!! :-D

Hi Louise123

A good book is Dominance:  Fact or Fiction by Barry Eaton.  It is well worth a read.  Think you can get it on Amazon.  I agree with all the others.  What a load of piffle!!!  Poor you but some people just don't move on.  You get it in every walk of life though.  At least you had the intelligence and forethought to actually question this.  Good for you.  Enjoy your dog.  He sounds great.

Kind regards
Annie

Most of these just sound like a dog that needs training, fun toy or treat orientated training I hasten to add :)

I will have a look dogdlei1, i have always thought it was a little more training that would help, but you read all these things and panic!! He is my first male dog and i have found him a little different to bitches. I had never thought of him as dominant, especially as when we rehomed he was a real baby. We do lay bpundries but at the same time we are not overly strict as there has no reason to be. I think i have just had my mind put at rest. He has never growled or snapped at anyone i was told by the trainer dominant behaviour could lead to this, which i imagine is true in the wrong circumstances. But from what people have said we are doing ok, just not really hard on our dog, as we like his confident nature. He has no fear of people but is very friendly. Likes to say hello to the neighbours over the fence and so.

Here is another good link: http://www.clickersolutions.com/articles/2004/Debunking.pdf

i'd like to see the word "dominant" packed up neatly, taken out into the garden and burnt! only it causes more unecessary stress than pretty much any other theory in existence. most so-called "dominant" behaviour is perfectly natural behaviour which you can choose to accept or not according to the sort of relationship you'd like to have with your dog.

take going through doors first, for example. personally i want the dog in front of me, not about to trip me up from where i can't see him! although of being taken off my feet by dogs this is another recent story and one which explains why i can't type properly at the moment!!

but as for eating first, he cares not a jot about the order of things but again, personally, i don't eat my dinner at 6.30 when his stomach is thinking his throat has been cut. i also prefer to have a nice well fed dog around when i do eat so that i don't have to train any begging tendencies out of him.

in conclusion i feel so sad when i read about people whose healthy happy relationship with their dog could so easily be undermined by all this dominance toot!

I agree whole-heartedly with all the above - but only after researching the topic following links, articles and books suggested on these boards - oh, yes, and observing my dogs.  (I came to these boards with two rescue 'problem' dogs and a fair amount of panic so I feel I represent the average ignorant-but-willing-to-learn dog owner and not someone with preconcieved ideas of dog training or canine psychology.)

If you come across people who tell you that they did start making the dog wait to eat, wait to go through doors etc. and it worked! this is because for the first time a confused, undisciplined dog was having some order imposed on chaos - and not because their human was finally learning to speak 'doglish' and engage in meaningful communication.   

Trust your instinct and say thanks, but no thanks to the trainer.

Linda

i actually dont see these dogs as dominant,they are dogs that havent been taught any manners!

I agree, I started to get the best out of my dog when I started to treat him with love and affection rather than trying to apply stupid dominance theory rules. Now he sleeps on the bed and we are closer than ever. We have a mutual respect.If I dont want him to do something I only have to gently teach him that.

Good thats great to hear morgan, i have a very loving relationship with my dog as well, he doesn't slepp upstairs but thats just my preference. I kind of like the way he behaves and wouldn't want to change him. He does have some manners though!! :).

Heh heh!  My dogs do quite a lot of that list but are certainly not dominant.

Sounds like my GSD's typical teenage loutish behaviour at the moment. He does some but not all but is definitely in his 'up yours' phase at the mo:rolleyes:
Kat

Ha Ha! Been there.:rolleyes: Well going through it at the moment in fact. i don't think my girl is 'dominant' I just think she is being bl**dy cheeky!

"After speaking with a trainer (who never actually met my dog),about my dog and his lunging on lead behaviour, , i am now paranoid he is going to turn into a dominant monster! "

This trainer should be shot for worrying you like this.  Ignore him/her and find someone that knows about the realities of dog behaviour.

Since reading this thread I have a much happier relationship with my dog. She is 10 months old now, and I was convinced from people's 'traditional' opinions that she didn't respect me, she was dominant etc. and yet when I take a step back and look at the whole picture she is just a happy dog who can be cheeky, but who isn't dominant at all, just excitable and happy and fun-loving, and since reading this and having more realistic expectations of her, and understanding more about dogs, I just feel so much more comfortable, and i htink she senses that in me and we are all happy together now.
This thread has been so helpful!

That's such great news, good for you! :) :)

Lindsay
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she sounds like a thoroughly lovely dog, NannyO and i'm so pleased you are having such fun together. that's really what it's all about and that's why i get so sad when i see "dominance theory" getting in the way of a perfect doggy relationship.

i must say that i'd always ten times rather have a joyful confident pup with a well defined sense of wickedness who will need calming down sometimes than i would the opposite. in fact i think i would have serious struggles with a determined introvert!

Glad this thread was useful to someone else as well nannyogg. I was quite happy before i spoke to this lady, then i think i started to over analyse everything, but like you i feel i can go back to normal, because when i think about it we were all getting along fine in the first place. My dog just isn't very good on lead and in the great scheme of things thats no problem.

That is exactly how I feel. She pulls. I was overanalysing, thinking this was a sign of dominance (because that was a lot of people's opinions) and that she didn't respect me, but actually she is jus happy and excited and eager to eplore, and she is also quite young still. I adore my dog and I am pleased as this thread has led me to have a much happier (and far more relexed) relationship with her, and that benefits the both of us.

thats exactly how it was for me a year ago, I was told certain things and all the books I had read said the same thing but i couldnt help thinking,; surely hes  going through the door first, pulling, running of etc etc etc because hes excited, thats a different reason altogether, when i read posts on here it fell into place for me. thanks everyone.

>a much happier (and far more relexed) relationship with her, and that benefits the both of us.

Absolutely 100% correct! :) It's very easy to forget that having a dog is meant to be fun, and enhance our lives, and we shouldn't allow it to become a worry - terribly easy to do, but unfair on both dog and owner. I'm delighted that the thread has helped people step back a bit and see the whole picture. :) :)