Yes, that's also a problem. :(

According to the law, in civil cases you only have to prove the presumption of probabilities :)

If you have a healthy pup/dog vaxed & it then becomes ill its reasonable to presume it was the vax.

Just as well Marianne's pup vaccine was delayed then, or the manufacturer could have been facing a false claim based on spurious evidence, and would only have muddied the waters.

Oh these are already very muddy waters we`re treading in J/G :D

Too right! That's why a good filter system is needed to remove the mud to leave the pure facts! :D

And how would you do that J/G? what kind of filter

That's the $64,000 question, Christine! How could it be done?

It can`t really J/G :(

There are so many variables......

I agree. Without independent scientific professional studies we're left with only amateur opinion and no proof. :(

>independent scientific professional studies

;)

Some on here only wish to believe in certain scientific studies, even tho the issue of vax is universal.........

Well that would be rather silly :).  Anyone who has had the least bit scientific education would know that research is best conducted impartially, looking for the bulk of evidence rather than just seeking out evidence in support of their theories  :)

Doesn't Marianne's example show how unreasonable that is?

Not to me :D

So the balance of probabilities was that her pup had a fit because of the vaccine.............she hadn't had? :D

I didn`t say that, I explained what is needed to beproved in a civil case ;)

and thats a presumption of probabilities :D

You also said such a system was reasonable.  Marianne's case shows it is not.

Nope....thats what the law states in civil cases :D

To an objective open mind, yes. :)

I answered the question how can it be proved if a vaccine causes an illness. I didn`t make the rules got nothing to do with an open mind to a hyperthetical question

Your reply was to Isabel's question about whether or not it would be reasonable to attribute Marianne's case (specifically) to a vaccine reaction. ;)

Right I see the post you mean. No I was just generalising, not specifically to Marriannes case.

:)

And, I've had one dog and he died tragically on 25th March after his booster - he had the most horrific death.  The vet has half accepted responsibility and the drug company are paying all the vet fees.  If your dog has had his puupy jabs chances are he's safe!  Insist on a titre test at the vets this will let you know if your dog has the antibodies - if he has then he doesn't need the vaccination.  I feel very strongly about it DON'T DO IT IF YOU LOVE YOUR DOG!!!  Spangler was only 3 and his story is posted around 27th March on Champdogs - take a look!
Also his story will be in a Dog magazine at the end of the month.  I'm also setting up a website to make owners aware of the risks and the options we can choose to keep our animals safe.  www.spangler.co.uk will be up and running very soon. 
Maria

>if he has then he doesn't need the vaccination

When will he need it?  Will you test every month or will you think him safe for at least a year even if it has reached the 3 years recommended as safely covered by the manufacturers?

Hi mackleback - bet you're glad you asked :D :D :D   It's all soooo much clearer now  -   isn't it......................

Teri ;)

Phew! I've only just managed to read all the posts. And i feel SOOOO much better now.......NOT!!

Ask your vet, he is qualified and trained to understand and evaluate research, he will be able to explain the risk/benefit balance to you.

It's a judgement call kiddo ;)  At least you're aware that there are different aspects to consider and that's a huge step in the right direction.

If you know your vet well and trust her/his judgement, if s/he is prepared to discuss treatment routines etc openly with you, then together you will come to the most appropriate solution for your dog in your particular area.

If you're still in contact, have a chat with your breeder too - your breed or that line within the breed may have issues which would affect your judgement. 

If you have doubts then ask around different vet practices and, should you still have concerns, seek out info on alternative vacs plus titre testing :)  

Good luck & Best wishes, Teri

If you vaccinate these days you give the two puppy vacs and the a full boster the first year and then only give the full booster every 3 years. However lepto needs to be given every year as this element doesn't last as long, and is transmitted by rats so the dogs always going to be at risk. Whilst i don't dispute that vaccine reactions happen, i have worked at a vets for the past year and a half, with 2 practices and i have yet to hear of any fatal reactions. I don't know about minor reactions as i probably wouldnt find out, but i certainly don't recall any. On the other hand i have heard of some regions of the uk who have suffered a parvo outbreak recently in which many puppies died. Its a risk benefit analysis really. I trust the vets implicitly, i know them too well, they wouldn't vaccinate unless they really thought it was worth it, but simialrly they won't vaccinate if the animal is not in full health. However, i do think you need to be careful, as not everyone botheres to research this topic and only hears the part which says vaccination is unneccesary and then just don't bother (and don't titre test) which is why the diseases are becoming more prevalent. FWIW i had an adverse reaction to the whooping cough vaccine as a baby, but i had all the others, because it was still in my best interests.

Awwww I`m sorry M/B, thought I did very good explaining it over the road ;)

Ask away & I`ll try explain better :)

LOL @ Teri :D :D clear as a bell :D :D