Hi All,

I've also hit a bit of a wall on training (have just read the thread from fluff76 which has prompted me to post)

My GSD is 5 1/2 months, has just passed KCGCDS puppy, and starts Bronze this week, which the trainer thinks he'll have no problems with (She must know something I don't!).

Watch is near enough perfect.  Even with me walking all the way round him, or away.
He does sit - from stand or down.  Sit from a little bit of a distance.  Too much distance and he'll reduce it first.  Always wants to lollop over into a horrible puppy sit, after a little while - not sure how to fix this.
He downs so nicely I swear he hurts his elbows!  He's just started to down from a stand.
Stay and wait are coming along.  He waits nicely at open doors and before eating, when asked.
No joy on out of sight yet.  He can stay in a down very well, with me walking away, or around him.  He still is a bit shaky on a sit stay.

I'm struggling massively with recalls... He's brilliant with no distraction, with the one proviso he doesn't come in close enough - but on a walk I cease to exist, and it's very hard to get him to tune into me at all - especially if there are people, dogs or balls in sight.  (Like within 1/2 mile).  I kind of feel I'm just ballast on the end of the lead.  He'll ignore the ball or prime ham I'm holding to go say hello to a new dog or person.  We have a pot of treats in every room at home, and he gets regular daily practice, inside, which is consistently good.

Likewise walking nicely on the lead is great at home, pretty good late at night (no one around), and dire when there's lots to take his interest (oh and none-existant at training class).  I can stand still all I like, he just doesn't overly care - his focus is elsewhere.

He's very much into the new - he gets terribly overexcited with new people, or dogs, and is pretty nice and *relatively* calm with everyone once he knows them.  He very much assumes everyone and anything wants to play with him, which is starting to be a bit of a problem now he has size on his side.  I think the biggest problem here is actually the people he meets - lots of whom respond with 'oh he's ok' and positively encourage him to crawl all over them, after I've just asked him to sit nicely first  :rolleyes:

When I can get focus, he's good at staying focussed.  Short of making the whole walk a clicker session and working him the whole time, I'm at a loss.  I'd like to be able to take him longer walks, but it's far too much like hard work!!

He adores clicker training - but gets terribly overexcited.  And we normally get one sit, one down, one stand or sit on the mat, one down on the mat, one walking backwards, then he starts shouting at me, and trying to throw the lot at me.  We've often get walking backwards onto the mat with a down and a bark  :rolleyes:  It's hilarous when he starts playing with us - what this mat?  One paw?  Look.  Ok, two then?  Look.  Alright, 360 degree circle with a perfect down in line with the mat.  Will that do?  :)

I can click all I like to place him at heel, but he just doesn't seem to follow the cue or command - he'll follow my hand happily as a lure, but if I try and minimise it, or use command I get blank look.  After a couple of lures into place he gets overexcited and starts snuffling and licking my hand, and i'm sure he doesn't know where his feet or head are.

So, how to improve recalls, lead walking and heeling?  Any suggestions gratefully received!

I'd really like to get into working trials, but am feeling at the moment that the dog is more than bright enough, but I most certainly am not ready!

Matt

Your post almost read like it was mine because of how similar my experience is to yours. What you have said is exactly what I am experiencing with my 9 month old shepherd bitch, and on top of that she is getting very attention demanding too. Like your shepherd, she is excellent at watch, sit, stay, down-stay, leave it, heel etc., but her attention has gone out of the window. Around new dogs she just sticks two fingers up at me, and although her recall is good, she has seriously gone backwards in her behaviour and her focus. I have been assured this is all down to her age and I think that is right. I take her to a training club that specialises in german shepherds, and all the owners assure me that they have been through it with their too. At class she gets so excited to see the other dogs, she strabbles and lunges and jumps up on the lead - all things she knows not to do, and she wouldn't do in a normal situation, but which goes out of the window when she is excited or in a new situation. She also wants to play with everything she comes across, and as the socialisation part of our training class comes after an hour of training, she has just never got her mind on the training because she wants to play. Her best one is when she does dicde to not do recall, which is when you will call her and she will lok at you putting onthis 'dumb blonde' face (which she isn't) and pretends she doesn't understand (manipulation? yes!) and then you shake her treat tin and you can see her weighing up the pros and cons of coming and what is in it for her. In general her recall is good, but there are those times when she is testing.
I think you are just experiencing the same thing I am, which is a mixture of the terrible teens with testing the boundaries. If you cave in just once they mark that up as a victory and will remember. I try to introduce training before any play now to get her to 'earn' play, which is going well, and I have also just resigned myself to the fact her training has taken a step backwards but I just have to persist. Everynone at class shakes their head in sympathy with me, pat me on the back and say 'it'll be fine, it gets better once they are a year and a half...' Everyone's been there and I think shepherds can be particularly testing because of their intellegence.

Matt it sounds as if you and your youngster are doing really well - remember, 23 weeks ago, he wasn't even born :P . Remember to relax and enjoy the puppyhood and the fact that your pup is so clever ;)

He's entering a new and exciting phase in his life, the Flight Instinct Stage (which is approx. from 6 weeks to 8 months) which is where naturally youngsters go off on their own; they can turn a deaf ear and it can last for days or weeks. Similarly there is also the Juvenile/onset of Puberty (approx. 5 -14 months) and Adolescence( 5-14 months approx). So you can see loads is happening - hormonal changes, rising of testosterone, and possibly a second Fear Period due to the homronal changes in his body. At this stage, attention span and motor skills are often poor although he will have by now a fully developed capacity for learning :)

So lots going on! :P I'd suggest plenty of careful control, guidance and hopefully not allowing him to practice inappropriate behaviour .

A few suggestions to start off:

Recall - never call when you know he will not come back due to distraction,
           get him fixed on a real special toy that only comes out on special training occasions as a big reward,
           experiment with food rewards and work out what floats his boat both toy and food wise,
           be unpredictable on walks - change direction often,
           hide from him occasionally (make sure this is safe first),
           never just recall for putting on the lead,
          practice recall lots of times a day, esp. when dinner is ready and other nice things,
          Use a long line and harness if he is not listening at all and train on that for a while.

Lead walking and heeling -

          work out whether you want competition style heelwork (fab taught with a clicker) or just a loose lead (ie what are you teaching - you can of course do both but be totally clear to the pup and use different styles - maybe clicker for Obedience with target stick, and lure and reward for loose lead ),
         use a harness (StopPull or Walkezee) for getting from A to B when yo hav no time to train,
          when he pulls, lure him back to your side and click and treat ,
          never let him off lead if he is pulling - ask for even just one step and then Off straight away as a fast reward,
        
If you want to do working trials, remember they can't compete until 18 months due to the jumping side of things. I train for trials and have a Belgian, we are having scale problems just now (long story! more my worry than anything else) but I do so enjoy what we do :)
If you are near Kent at all, you may be able to go and watch to a working trial day being held by Anne Bussey who is a top working trial clicker trainer :)
It's 28th May and is an Intro to Working Trials. Pm me if you want more info on it.

Hth
Lindsay
x

hi

My GSD is just 11 months old and has been training since 11 weeks. Fortunately he has never gone through the "Difficult" stage. (Well not yet - fingers crossed!!)  He is now at the advanced stage, he is doing scent work and searching as well as sendaways etc.  in fact he done a trial at the weekend for search and rescue dogs, although he did really well it will be at least another 3 months to find out if he is suitable. His recall is excellent.  This is done purely through his love of his ball...I think he would die for it.  He started with his ball at about 3 months (He wast really interested in treats) the idea is to wind him up with his ball, play tug etc., let him win occasionally when you take it off him give it back immediately, if HE doesnt give it up the ignore him he soon realises he cant have a game if he has no one to play with.  If he does wander off I just get his ball out and he is back like a shot.  He is only allowed his ball when out or training...works for him....and for me.   He now realises that when ever he works or does something really good he will get his ball at the end as a reward.   I have another GSD she is almost 8 years of age, I didnt get her until she was 15 months old and I trained her in exactly the sme way...so you can get them interested even at a later age.

I think your pup sounds very good to me. 5 1/2 months is still very young, hes still a baby. At this age everything is still very "new". If my dogs had been so good by that age i would have been very proud. Recall is something that does take a while to train. Lindsays advice is very good as always. Don't forget even if you want to do working trials your dog has a long time to go until he can start all the jumping etc, so you have at least a year or so to perfect the general obedience.

Thanks for the reassurance - with all the comments I'm feeling a fair bit more relaxed about it, and have a few new ideas to try.

I guess with him being so sharp on some things I'm expecting too much yet a while.

thanks again

That's probably worth a try - he loves the ball in the garden or house - but I'll try resctricting it to walks and being a bit more careful and see if he values it more...

At the mo at training we usually get a lovely game with the toy, a nice chase and retrieve, heads straight towards me, sees the line of dogs at the back, and veers off to say hello to someone with toy still in mouth!  :)

I'm getting better at goalkeeping though...

I like the first comment - puts it in context  :)

Don't get me wrong - I'm very impressed with how well he's doing overall - I think probably with him being so very quick on other things, I might be expecting too much!

With previous dogs they've had fairly good recall by the time they got to stroppy kevin stage, but Eric is doing everything differently!

He never really went through the stick to me like glue phase - even at 12 weeks or so, he was off exploring and socialising, so my previous approach of hiding behind trees etc, never really worked with him, as it has with others...

I haven't let him free for a while now - he's either on a long line (though I don't have a harness for him), or the 6' lead.  Mainly as he spots people a mile off and I have little confidence of him not charging over.  I'd like for him to get a good run free to burn off some energy!

What seems to be his big things on a walk are scent and socialising - calling him back for even high value treats which he works ever so hard for at training often seem to come over like calling a ten year old in for dinner in the middle of a game of football - oh alright I'll have the chicken - can I get back to sniffing please?

At home he's one of the most food motivated dogs I know, at class he's brilliant *once* he's tuned in.  It's getting him tuned in.  Often the only way to get him to look is put the treat right to his nose - a few clicks later he's focussed.  That doesn't always work on a walk.

I must confess I've rather got to the point where I try not to use his name on a walk, or I'll just end up teaching him to ignore it.

Heelwork we're trying at home with the clicker - not very good yet.

Outside we're just aiming for loose lead at the mo.

I'm up north in Blackpool - but would have loved to go to the working trials day anyway - good excuse to visit some friends down there.  We're booked on a tracking day on the 28th - if it's a regular thing I'd love to come on the next one.  I've not managed to locate any clubs near here yet.

In fact I'm tempted to postpone the tracking for a month and go anyway!

regards,

Matt

Oh Eric is starting to get a little pushy - he's not quite hit teenage yet, as his brains haven't leaked out his ears....

He's very much seems one to weigh the odds before making a decision - be it recalls, or his few recent attempts at being a lap dog  :rolleyes:

He's starting to use his paws more, push a bone onto your lap if he wants to play etc.

The only real irritating one is the whistling and wittering - he'll whine to go out, which was ok, and when he's frustrated or something on his mind, but has the odd time when he'll be chatting away for ages.  I know he's a shepherd and vocal but after an hour I could cheerfully kill him!

Don't know if anyone remembers the old safety information films 'Charley Says', but Casper is like that!  He never shuts up talking, whereas the four girls are quiet.

Our 5 month old Danes were doing very well with all aspects of training, and this week at obedience class we were asked to come in early and do a demonstration for the new puppy class to show them what can be achieved in 8 weeks.  They were both good for the demo, then came our class and Elsa just laid down the whole time Meg was sitting, staying, all the usual, but Elsa just looked around, yawned and laid down.  How embarassing!  I kept walking off to try to get her to stand to no avail - I just hope that this is a one off and not the start of her Kevin phase. I do have a feeling that this is her Kevin phase however, as after our walk in the woods this morning, we called the 5 dogs to us, four came immediately and sat before us, Elsa was sniffing around a tree, but watching us out of the corner of her eye - Cheeky Monkey :D

hi matt, your boy sounds just like mine, he was never a velcro dog, he was off to see anything and anyone. I had to behave like a demented fool to get his attention, now any pride and dignity I had is long gone. On this plus side, this sort of dog is up for anything and huge fun, once you have his focus, which you will he will be a great companion and never boring. Being outgoing and friendly is a good thing although it can be hard to see that when hes the other side of the field ignoring you. Mine is 3 now and pretty good, still has the odd deaf moment when a dog looks very interesting but it has to be quite close now for him to go to it. The sniffing is fascinating for him, but thats what dogs do. I had no experience so I just kept up the training through the moments of frustration and it pays off. Enjoy him.