Hi All,

I wanted to ask some advice about training. I seem to have hit a wall with my nearly 6 month old pup as far as training is concerned  - we seem to do the same things all the time, so I need some new stuff to teach her - I'm sure she's getting bored!

So far we've got 'sit', 'down' (and 'down' from a distance) roll over, paw, stay (for a reasonable amount of time), wait (for food treats), 'come' and 'up and off'.  I've also started hiding toys and so we're getting there with 'find it' as well.

What I'm stuggling with is the 'sit' from distance. She just looks at me and  doesn't go into a sit from the 'down'.  Also the retrieve. She's keen to run after a  toy, but won't bring it all the way back. How do we get her to bring it back to us? Also with the stay, she'll stay put when I'm backing off facing her telling her to stay, but as soon as my backs turned she runs up behind me. How do I make her stay when I'm not facing her.

Also, I'm a bit stuck with clicker training. We started to teach her (amongst other things)to go and lie down on a mat and now as soon as I put the mat down she'll go an lie on it, however I can't seem to add a meaningful verbal cue. She'll go an wait on the mat as soon as it's put down, but not at the cue 'mat'. When do I add verbal cues?

Any ideas will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks

Karen

Hi Karen

The sit from a down is a totally new position to the dog, because it has a new starting position.  You can't just expect the dog to know it from a distance.  First, return to working up close and practise lots of downs to sits up close.  If the dog doesn't respond when you give the Sit cue, lure her up into a sit, click and release the treat.  Only try doing it at a distance when it's going ok up close.

With the retrieve, I would train her using the clicker retrieve.  I'm not going to tell you the whole procedure for this because I think I'll just confuse you, so I'll tell you each stage, you go and practise it for a few days, then come back and say how it's going and I'll tell you the next stage, ok?! 

Get high value treats and clicker.  Put the object you want her to pick up on the ground at your feet (it does help at first if it's a new object she is likely to be interested in, and not one of her usual toys). 

When she goes to pick it up, immediately click.  When she hears the click, she should drop the toy.  If she doesn't drop the toy immediately on hearing the click, wave the treat under her nose so she drops the toy to get the treat.  Then throw the treat away from you (and away from the dropped toy).  When the dog's back is turned, racing after the treat, pick up the toy.  Repeat again from the beginning!  It's really important that you don't let the dog see you pick up the object, to prevent her getting possessive and not wanting to let go of it.

You will find that, the more you do this, the more she drops as soon as she hears the click and you can stop waving the treat under her nose.

You are preventing possessiveness or "keep away" games because you never pick up the object when the dog can see you...  Throw the treat away from you every time and then sneakily pick up the object behind the dog's back.  (Don't worry the end behaviour will be a nice retrieve to hand, but this is the first stage, ok?)

Don't put the object away from you yet - keep putting it at your feet, so the dog doesn't really have to bring it anywhere, just pick it up and drop when you click.  You can try this same exercise with lots of different objects when she's got the hang of it.

For the stay, you are rushing things again.  You need to first train in duration.  Not distance.  When your dog can do a great 2-3 minute stay with you right by her side, then you can start trying to leave her.  Can you do that yet?  If not, work on duration.  Reward continuously during the stay, giving a treat randomly during it.  Release in a low-key, relaxed way and don't make a big fuss after the stay, even if she does a good job - all the good things happen DURING the stay.  Make sure you have a consistent release word (Like "Ok").

With lying down on the mat - You put this on cue by not rewarding the times when she goes to lie on it, and hasn't been cued to do it.  So, if you don't tell her "mat" and she lies on it, ignore her.  At the same time though, to keep the behaviour strong, you have to do quite a few repetitions of saying "mat" before she lies on it.  To practise this, I would put the mat down, holding her away from it by the collar, walk a little way away, say "Mat" and release her.  Every time you say Mat and she lies on it, you reward.  If she lies on it without the word, don't reward.

With the retrieve I've found with my dogs that if you run in the opposite direction they'll follow you.
One of my bitches used to retrieve most of the way then drop it a couple of metres in front of me.
I got round it by throwing the article then as soon as she picked it up and headed back towards me. I took paces backwards (still facing her) and encouraging her to me. Then she would come right back to me and I could take it from her. Within a week she clicked what she needed to do as she always loved me throwing balls for her anyway.  She now will retrieve an article and bring it straight back to the original spot.
I'm not too fussed as I don't do competition obedience with her. Her retrieving is only for fun so to speak (out on walks and water retrieves). But I have taught her to present and finish and it's good training to keep her brain working.
In terms of the other training just go back one step. If her stay is not working when you walk off then you go back to doing a close stay. Only taking a couple of sidewards steps away from her, or walking around her. Once she is consistant with that then you build up the distance and time away from her.
The same with the distance control. Do it all close to the dog. I use the command "sit up". I started on the lead, then a few feet in front and built up to a fair distance. Also remembering to teach the dog with hand signals as well as voice commands. The dog will see you a 100 hundred yards away but it might not hear you across a windy field.
In terms of the clicker training. I've personally never used it and trained happily without it. That is not to say I don't think it is a great way to train, just not the route I ended up going down. So ONETWOTHREE and others will be able to offer help on that.
So far, you're doing really with your pup. Don't be surprised if you do go two steps forward and one step back though. It seems to be a stage they go through. I had it with mine. Just always go back a stage in your training with the various exercises.
Good luck

Good god, do me  favour and come to mine :d :d  That's brilliant on how well your young pup of 5 months is doing, mine are horrors and a lot older. 

My 3 year old used to give me his paws when sitting or standing on command but now he gets excited he does each one and then batters me ten to the dozen after it :d :d  He's doing brilliantly on his high ten nd bows, loves going to his mat but once he gets bored of it he picks his mat up and brings it to me, after he's killed it :d

Thanks everyone....

The bit about the going forwards and backwards rings very true. Just recently I've noticed that when I ask her to come, i'll get this look where she lifts her nose up a little and looks at me through narrowed eyes and then walk off in the opposite direction! Selective hearing, nay complete ignoration becoming the order of the day!:rolleyes:

I've also found that training with her JWB kibble gets much less of an enthusiatic responce than hot dog! The dog knows how to work me!LOL

I think you doing really well with a six month old pup.
Wont be long before you get to the naughty teenager stage and feel like he's lost the plot but dont give up ..just work through it.

Roni

Hi there

Yes, I was going to say that you have achieved wonderful things with a 5 month old puppy.  Please remember though that she is a puppy and still young so don't expect miracles (although it would seems to me you have achieved them so far!).  Good advice from 123 there and the other members.  I think you've got lots to keep you going now!!!

Good luck
Kind regards
Annie

Thanks....well I'm even prouder of her than I was before...working with her is one of the most rewarding things I've done. When you're teaching her something new, she's just so keen and attentive. Watching the penny drop when she get's a new trick or when she's trying to make you click again is wonderful!

We do about 3 sessions a day - about 3-5 minutes before each meal (with her kibble) and then we play find it and chasing games thorough the day. I also read an article called 'Nothing in life is free' and so try to ask her to do something before we give her anything she wants.

Thanks for the encouraging comments....

I'm after retrieving tips too as have foolishly entered my Cavalier bitch for beginners and pre-beginners and need the retrieve for beginners! If I put the article down by her she just stares into my eyes wanting attention or cuddles. If I throw something for her she will run after it but usually then jumps onto a sofa and starts chewing it instead of bringing it back - tips please? And so far she hasn't even wanted to run after something when I throw it at pet training, so I will have to ask the trainers down there what to do as well!

Hi there,

Wonderful stuff so faron this thread - what breed is your puppy? It will vary enormously from breed to breed how they react to training the retrieve.

Be aware that with gundogs, for example, you cannot even TAKE them to start formal training before 6 months of age. Before that only sit, wait and come and a basic walk on the lead to heel is required. They ca chase wings or puppy dummies, do the occasional, twice a week or so retrieve but nothing formal and certainly no directional or distance work.

You don't want a flat bored 3 year old because he's been hard at it since a few months of age.

Be facinated by the breed of your dog and apologise if I've missed it in the thread.

Di

I train all my gundogs from 7 weeks, not sure what "formal" training is as opposed to any other type of training.

I certainly would not dream of waiting until my dogs were 6 months and my dogs are certainly not bored with training, if they were I would be a pretty ghastly trainer!  I have a six year old that has been trained from 7 weeks and is still excited about training and competing!

Of course all gundogs, workers, are TRAINED from 7/8 weeks, but only like any other dog. Basica manners, socialisation, walking to heel, sit, stay etc etc. When I say 'formal' training I mean training which is specific to the task that this dog will perform in its handlers chosen gundog 'field'. Directional stuff. Blinds. Placing the building blocks for a good presentation. water work. Hunting an area. Steadiness. Game introduction. etc etc etc. Most gundog breed clubs and non specific gundog clubs will not accept puppies below 6 months of age unless they have a 'puppy walk' type of an arrangement which is glorified socialisation anyway.

Of course if you read my post, I said at 6 months gundog clubs ask for sit, stay, heel and come. That doesn't, of course, appear overnight ;-) Hammering in such things as distance control and so on at such a young age (the original posters said coming up 6 months of age) is asking a hell of a lot from a young puppy that cannot yet have the basics ingrained and concreted into his soul yet.

Di

Well most competitive people I know DO train for all the exercises their dog is required to perform in its chosen field, gundog or anything else.

Most of us certainly do not "hammer" away at our dogs, they just love to have something to do.  Distance control I introduce from 7 weeks, it is easy and the dogs do not even know they are being trained. 

Of course you do not actually need to join any club to successfully train a dog to perform tasks in any chosen discipline.

There is no exercise that I wait until a certain age to introduce, as good training is done in incremental steps, always building on what went before.

I expect my dogs to have the basics of ALL exercises by the time it is 9 months and I know a lot of others do the same.

Training is fun, for dogs and owners and as there is no positive punishment or stress involved there is no question of overfacing the dog or "hammering" as you put it, not in our sort of training anyway.

...each to their own, each to their own. I wish you luck with they way you choose to undertake training. Of course training is progressive, as my posts clearly have outlined. Sorry you picked on one word 'hammering' - that patently lit beacons in you. As you will know, gundog work is 90% good manners and obedience, 10% retrieving. This is what is attained in the early days. We agree really on this judging by your info, i've just obviously rubbed you up the wrong way ;-)

Di

Di

I was going to ask the same thing on what breed :D

Lucy
xx

What is distance control?

Getting the dog doing sits, stays, downs etc at a distance. :)

I would love to be able to do that - how do I go about it?

Last time I taught a dog how to do this, I practiced with her till she knew what was required close to me, then we worked at it a pace away, then two paces, and gradually increased the distance, not going further till she was reliable at the current distance. I'm sure other people do it differently, though! :)

Here's the training I do (Golden retriever) as per my previous post.

"We do about 3 sessions a day - about 3-5 minutes before each meal (with her kibble) and then we play find it and chasing games thorough the day. I also read an article called 'Nothing in life is free' and so try to ask her to do something before we give her anything she wants."

I can't describe this as hammering. We've done this training since day one, and asking her to go into a down and sit from a distance was a natural progression from being able to  do these commands extremely well, on every ask. She loves training, it keeps her mind occupied and we always have fun.

I asked about new training because her next class (beginners obedience) doesn't start until the end of May, during which time I wanted to carry on what we'd learnt in puppy class and progress. Not to mentino to bond with her even more. For about 23hrs and 45 minutes of the day she behaves exactly as you would expect - a puppy. She's a clever girl, and I know when she's bored. To that effect I make sure she doesn't get bored that means during any training. I always stop the training whilst she's still really interested and end on a high with the rest of the treats.

It sounds to me like you're doing great, Fluff76, so keep up the good work :)

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