I know this has been debated and I have gone back through all the posts and read booklets on the pros and cons of neutering, but I am still feeling a little anxious about it. Just when I think I have made a decision someone says something which makes me feel guilty for even considering neutering my dog. My Westie will be 1 year next month. Up until a few months ago he was a little darling!! Excellent at obedience classes, well socialised and a balanced personality. He is still esentially a nice dog but is humping cushions and legs (not excessively), he is starting to mark in the house and is doing it in other peoples houses which is mortifing,  last night at training classes ("perfect manners" :rolleyes:ha ha) I spent most of the time chasing him around the room as he pestered a lovely bitch and he wees all over the room with the excitment of all the smells etc his recall is now nonexistant, he is appalling off the lead, so much so that I dare not take him off lead outside because I am scared of losing him as he dashes off after other dogs and I can't catch up with him. I have read that castration works best with sexually dymorphic behaviour but only if it is done quite early on. My vet says to wait until he is a year old first. I am realistic and know that all this behaviour requires training and I am trying! but I am hoping that castration will make it easier to train him as his mind will be more on the job. He is certainly untrainable at the moment when other dogs are around, although he is fine when it is just him and me. Althought the vet has reassured me that it wont be the case, my husband says neutering will change his behaviour to disinterested and lazy. I am also worried that it might change his coat which is beautiful and handstripped - although I believe that it is usually silky coats like spanials which are most at risk. I'm also concerned that other dogs may pester him if he is neutered although someone I know said that neutered dogs are quite aggresive with her intact dog. Also I have been trying to find a dog sitter to look after him when we go on holiday and they all say they will only take neutered dogs because of the other dogs in the household.

I would really like to hear from other westie owners what their experiences have been of neutering their westie male.

June, I don't have a Westie, but I do deal with adolescent dogs quite a bit.

Personally, I would not neuter him yet.  I would wait until he is at least 18 months old and over the trials and tribulations of adolescence, if you want to neuter at all.

Basically: You complain of him humping cushions and legs and marking inside - well, I know of many neutered males who do exactly the same thing.  If this is your main reason for neutering him, I think you might be disappointed.  In addition, at 12 months old, he is in the throes of adolescence - you can't know now whether this behaviour is here to stay or is just a passing thing relating to the high testosterone levels which are part of adolescence.  An adolescent dog has a level of testosterone which is several times the level of an adult dog's levels.  If you wait until his testosterone levels drop and he reaches adulthood, I think you will see if this marking and humping is here to stay or if it was just part of his development at this time in his life.

As for many of the other things you mention, I'm afraid they are just an inevitable part of a dog growing up and not being a puppy anymore and they will remain the same whether or not you neuter - the interesting smells at training classes, the poor recall, being "appalling" off lead and so on - all of this is 99% down to training (or lack of) and 1% down to hormones.  Many of my friends compete in dog sports of various kinds, including obedience, agility and gundog work.  Many of them have unneutered males which have gone through adolescence.  These males even during adolescence returned every time they are called, excel at training etc etc - all because they have experienced owners who understand learning theory and have trained them.  After all, these dogs and dogs like them are the stud dogs of tomorrow - dogs which excel at obedience, agility, gundog work and other areas.  If it is necessary to neuter a dog in order to have it "trainable", then what would we be doing for stud dogs!?  There would be a strange deficit of them, or they would all be unqualified.  Neither of these is the case.  Neutering doesn't replace training. 

If I were you, I would look more at what motivations you are offering, what treats you have in training class, what toys you are giving him in class as reward, how consistent you are being with commands and so on etc.  I think you are seeing neutering as a quick fix and you'll be disappointed.

It is indeed possible that neutering may change his coat - others will know more about that than me.

I'm not against neutering, although I do believe a dog should be allowed to mature properly first - I just think that it has to be done for the right reasons (preventing unwanted pregnancies!) and not as a quick training fix.

Velcro dog will inevitably morph into Bogoff dog, depending on breed etc somewhere between 6 - 12 months.  This is natural and almost entirely preventable IF owners put the necessary training in whilst a puppy instead of thinking that attachment they show at this age will continue into adolescence, it does not.

If your dog is humping cushions, remove them, then there is nothing to hump; you say it is not excessive, IMHO and many others ANY humping is "excessive" and entirely inappropriate and unacceptable; as is marking indoors.  Many of us have entire males and never experience this behaviour because we would not tolerate it.

Bogging off after other dogs has more to do with lack of consistent training than hormones.

There are many successful working dogs in many field that have been castrated, neutering does not diminish their drive to guard, hunt etc.

As for his coat, well you have to decide what you want most, and what is most important to you.............

I have had neutered dogs and none of them have been pestered by other dogs, entire or not.

Thanks for your considered replies. I understand that neutering doesnt take the place of training. I am a first time owner and can't be compared to the people who train working dogs, however I have worked very hard with him and he has passed all the tests at the end of each stage of his training, which started when he was 11 weeks old, in order to move on to the next class (apdt) and is now on the last stage which aims to perfect skills ( I think I will have to do it again when he is an "adult"). I also take him to the training walks which the trainer runs and an additional class. I practice what we are taught when I am out walking with him and at home.  My trainer also says have some very exciting treats and toys which are just used for training, and we have tried treats-to-die for, but when he is around other dogs he is only interested in the dogs. I am really scared now to let him off the lead when we are out, I dont have anyone else to walk with so am on my own with him, and not all owners are very understanding when their dogs are being pestered, I also find it difficult to catch him so am scared of him being harmed or lost. I guess the reason why I am expressing doubts is because I do find it harder to justify neutering for a male than spaying for a female, but if he does not grow out of the sexual dsymorphic behaviour will it then be too late to prevent it by neutering? I know that guide dogs are always neutered, why when they have rigorous training anyway? Will neutering do any harm even if it does'nt do what you hoped it to do? I would appreciate advice on how to improve recall in the circumstances above and how to prevent him from marking inappropriately, I havent found any references to this in the training books I've read.

>I know that guide dogs are always neutered, why when they have rigorous training anyway?

Because blind people can't see who or what's approaching them and their dog! The rest of us naturally keep a lookout to pre-empt trouble.

>Will neutering do any harm even if it does'nt do what you hoped it to do?

These articles (one repeating the evidence that castrated dogs are more likely to develop malignant prostate tumours than entire dogs) might help. :)

So are you saying that guide dogs are neutered because they will be better behaved without prompting from their owner? Isnt this putting neutering and training together to create a well trained obedient dog? Why is that not acceptable for other dogs? Not meaning to be challenging just trying to get my head around it all!

No, guide dogs are neutered to remove a possible problem that a blind person would be powerless to avoid. They have also been bred for generations to be more biddable and less dog-orientated than most. They aren't neutered very young, though - at around 10 months or so for the dogs.

The neutering is because - what happens if a bitch in season walks past an unneutered guide dog?  The blind person can't see it coming and avoid it!

When I was a first time owner it was always pointed out to us at our training classes that the dog should be able to 'perform' all the commands in all situations :) So practising everything not only at home, but in the park/field etc with other dogs around is very important. If he has 'relapsed' and used to be excellent at recall when other dogs were about, then you just have to go back to basics - put him on a long lead/line and start again until he is doing what you want him to :) If you know that he is not going to come back - don't let him off the lead at all until you have reinforced the training and are confident with him - once he gets used to ignoring you, you will have more difficulty correcting him :)

Good luck :)

Daisy

There are lots of posts on here about improving recall - if you type recall into the search facility you will find them all.

When you say you are using treats to die for - what are they? 

Treats to die for are really smelly things like liver or smoked fish.

If I were you, I would call him to you around the house and garden literally 20-30 times a day for smoked fish, a tomato, a bit of apple - random "tasty" things lying around your kitchen.

Do that for a week.  Then take him out on a long line and practise calling him to you many times for the same high value treat during a walk.  Don't wait to have a reason - call him for no reason and practise it.  At first only call him when he's looking at you or when you think you might succeed - you want success and at first you will have to pick your moments well to call him.  As he gets better and better, you can call him away from increasing distractions (like smelling a flower).  If he doesn't come, gently reel him in and praise (don't treat unless he has come himself there - not if you've reeled him in.)

It's worth remembering that neutering (of both dogs and bitches) is invariably done for the owner's benefit, not that of the animal.

But if the owner (particularly an inexperienced owner ) feels more confident about managing the dog, then, in the long run, it has to be better for the dog's welfare. Everyone has to start somewhere and if neutering the dog prevents problems then I don't see a problem. Both my dogs have been neutered for different reasons, but that does not mean to say that my next dog will be :)

Daisy

"It's worth remembering that neutering (of both dogs and bitches) is invariably done for the owner's benefit, not that of the animal."

I don't agree with that comment.  A lot of owners primarily have the interest of their dog(s) at heart when considering neutering.  Asside from the health benefits it also prevents their bitch getting unwanted attention from intact males/their dog giving unwanted attention to an intact bitch/impregnating/pregnancy/seasons from both the bitch and the dogs view etc etc.  Neutering is not something that many owners take lightly - they carefully consider the decision but then may feel 'bad' because there are so many people who say you shouldn't neuter as there's no need to if you are a 'responsible owner'.   IMO they are being responsible owners by considering it and in many cases by going through with it.  At the end of the day its got to be what suits both the owner and animal best :)

Would just like to say I had all this with my little JRT.  I did nueter him and it made the continuation of training much easier and got his mind back on the job in hand. 
Not an overnight cure though you have to give time for those raging hormones to subside. 
I would say go ahead and get it done.  I've had many dogs over the years and for those I have had nuetered it does help, especially it seems with the terrier breeds.
Some breeds I've had and left entire and had no real problems at all.

Bev

I know I've said it before but I had a complete turnaround on neutering which was something my vet assured me would be a jolly good idea at six months old. I'm not saying that Nips won't ever be neutered but I'm working on a "not broke, doesn't need fixing" basis and, for sure, the difference between his maturity at 6 months and the 8 months he is now is marked. So if there'd been any danger of "trapping" his development at 6 months, I'd have regretted it since he is now quite a different dog (basically not a puppy) with an increasingly rewarding maturity.

However, his testosterone levels are clearly raging at the moment and he's like a teenage lad who has been given free access to the top shelf at the newsagents sometimes! But for all that, I still don't permit inappropriate humping or marking which was something he's only tried once in a friend's hallway. His behaviour with other dogs is mainly unchanged although he's clearly very interested in the laydees and I'm also regularly reminding him to put his blasted willy away!!

However, I think it is worth remembering that when the male hormones kick in, it's with an overpowering force and the classic teenage behaviour you observe now isn't necessarily something that's going to continue.  The transition from puppyhood may involve some different characteristics emerging and these may well include a greater independence as well as a less obviously biddable nature but I honestly think that reinforcing training is the first port of call with castration being further down the line.

Hi June, I have a male westie age 4 now and he is not neutered, I dont have problems with him humping cushions etc, but, do occasionally get the scent marking, this is quite common in both sexes, my bitches sometimes do this, but not often, more so if they are coming into season.  Your dog is going through his "teenage stage" and this will sort itself out in a couple of months, I could not let my dog off lead with a good recall untill he was over 2yrs of age, he is a lot better now and will come back when called. Take the cushions away as another poster said. I am also a believer in whats not broke does not need fixed. Be patient with him and remember the treat training works, keep going and you will find when he is around 18months should calm down a bit,   the bitch he was pestering could be coming into season, a dog can sense this long before a bitch is actually showing the colour of a season. A westies coat can change after neutering .

Our 6 year old Rottie was neutered at 15 months old. I had every intention in keeping him as nature intended. But no matter how much intensive training we did, he peed everywhere in the house, humped anyone or anything, started getting aggressive with other males, bogged off at the first opportunity. He appeared depressed and confused by his raging hormones, life was hard work for him and us.  We decided with our vet that we would neuter him, which we did.  He is a changed dog, much calmer enjoys being with his male pals again without fighting, life is more enjoyable for him now.   So to be honest it is not always done for the owner !!

Can I also say that my 9 year old Rottie bitch had mammary cancer for the last 4 years of her life and after 3 ops she was put to sleep. So to be told that had I had her speyed much earlier we would have prevented her from dying from such a dreadful and painful disease. Again her seasons did not bother me so I did not have her done for ME!! I left as nature intended and in this case it killed her.  So it is a personal choice, some people do it for the health of the dogs also.

best wishes, xxx

Thanks for all your replies, I will carry on with the training, I am using liver and fish treats and anything smelly, and although it is good to have it confirmed that I am on the right track with the training I am doing, he can recall perfectly until there is another dog in sight, then he is not interested in anything but the dog! I'm glad that some of you have defended me - it is easy to make the assumption that I am considerering neutering just for my benefit or for an easy fix - there is only so much one can say in a post without writing an essay, and some people seem not to be able to read the end of the sentences! Nevertheless all your advice has been good although I see -saw from day to day about whether to neuter or not. Its worth saying that there is little research out there to support either argument, but one piece of research I read said that 80% of owners who had neutered reported that their dogs marking and interest in other dogs had decreased. The health side seems to be a trade off (like the pill research) if you neuter it protects you from one cancer but can increase another type. I'll let you know what I decide eventually!

Hi JuneH,
I have four Westies, the oldest two are neutured and the youngest two are entire. Their ages range from 7 1/2, 7, 3 and 15 months. I took my vets advice and had the oldest two neutured. I wanted to show the youngest two so they have been left entire. I find (from my personal experience) that my neutured dogs are not as aggressive with other dogs and even when they were younger they were okay. The two younger dogs are ready for action 24/7 and will follow a bitch until I shout them to come back. Of course, they are only doing what nature intended but they are responsive to my commands and will come back when called (most of the time - lol).
The coat texture of my two neutured dogs didn't change - I can still hand strip them with no problem. One of the pros is that their wee doesn't smell unlike my entire dogs. All four dogs stop at every tree, blade of grass, lampost so that didn't change for the neutured dogs but that may be due to the fact that they live with two entire males - once one of them wee's on something, they all follow in turn - lol.
I think with only having one dog you will find that he won't wee on every blade of grass when out 'walkies', and of course you won't have that awful smell or urine.
And as you probably know, Westies suffer from selective deafness when it suits them <G> so you have to be consistant with your recall training. Once they get passed the 'teenager' stage they do tend to calm down.
At the end of the day it's your decision so what ever you decide will be right for you and your Westie.

My pups just had it done. If you want i will report back next week if I see any change in him.

Any changes will take weeks or months to become apparent; the existing hormones in the system take time to wear off. :)

I know Jeangenie but I don't mind reporting back weekly if it helps :)

I have to write a diary for my pup as he has a few medical problems.
This is his diary for this operation:

Day 1:
Sleepy & grumpy.
Day 2:
Sleepy, out of breathe, soft faeces.
Day 3:
Grumpy & out of breathe half hour after having medication also hyperactive.
Day 4: Told to stop all medication sensitivity to medication and to keep cleaning area with saline twice daily, soft faeces.
Day 5: Hyperactive but happy in himself, soft faeces.
Day 6: Hyperactive but happy in himself, soft faeces.

Being Hyperactive is his hormones changing vet said this will take up to three weeks to sort themselves out.
I would ignore the soft faeces part of diary as this is due to his sensitivity's/allergies.
We have noticed one change in him and that is before he had to stop at every tree and pole and sometimes our shoes :rolleyes: but now he's not urinating everywhere like before So far we are very happy with the decision we made. :)

what age is your pup?

fourpaws said:
Westies suffer from selective deafness when it suits them.

Yup they do, my ones so stubborn at times and he gives me a certain look, I try not to laugh but that look gets me everytime LOL

me too!

It does seem, as a half way house, that chemical castration could be the way forward if you are undecided. i haven't caught up with the whole thread but through a quick skim noone seems to have suggested it. For behavioural issues associated with the owners deciding to castrate I always suggest they undergo chemical castration treatment first (i'm sure you are aware but the drug creates the impression of the dog being castrated in terms of *some*b of his behaviours and hormone levels - just as a quick and not very deep overview).

It leaves some question marks in my mind because castration only really has any affect quite some time after the operation due to hormones settling and so on, but it could be worth speaking to your vet about it.

Just a suggestion that has given a reasonable clear indication to some whoe have been undecided about castration that I have in class.
Di

Hi there

Yes, I would suggest chemical castration first.  You can ask your vet for tardak.  The effects last for about 3 weeks I think.  I did this with my rescue boy and the effects were great so I got him done.  I am of the opinion if its not broken don't fix it but the OP is clearly having problems with her dog and castration has been shown to have beneficial results in correcting unwanted sexual behaviours.  Regarding recall etc., that still has to be taught.  Remember, this is a forum where everybody can give their opinion.  At the end of the day you must do what is right for you and for your lifestyle.  If you feel that your dog's quality of life will benefit from him being castrated then have it done.  I often think that asking for advice on a subject like this which is emotive will only seek to confuse you more.  Speak to your vet and get tardak first and then see what you want to do.

Hope this helps.

Annie

There have also been people posting on here who have had bad experiences with the Tardak injection, including very serious side-effects. 

Yep, i know someone whose dog suffered some very serious problems on tardak and its taken her a HELL of a lot of work to correct those problems since.

Em

I'm sure there are dogs that have taken a bad reaction to tardak and of course that would have to be taken into consideration after discussion with the vet.  But it is an option to consider prior to permanent castration.  I think there is a risk with all chemicals but I suppose you have to weigh up the odds etc.,  Chemical castration is an option I would (and have) consider (and have tried!) prior to making the decision to have Baz castrated.

I just want to say though that I know lots of people who have this problem with their male dogs when they are this young.  By the time they reach adulthood it has almost always calmed down.  HOwever, what happens is that the owners become so disillusioned with their dogs behaviour that they often decide to have them castrated because they are at the end of their tether and the dog is becoming a real pain in the butt, rather than the companion they so want to have!!!!  It can't be easy living with a dog like that.  I was visiting somebody the other week because I'm going to start showing their Bracco and one of their GSPs wee'd on my waxed coat.  The guy was mortified and couldn't apologise enough.  I just laughed!!!!  It's all part of the joys of being around dogs, isn't it? 

I hope all the advice you have been given helps you to make an informed decision about your dog. 

Kind regards
Annie

The thing with 'chemical castration' is that even though a dogs hormone levels will deminish with the jab habitual behaviour takes a lot longer to subside.  With 'full castration' this habitual behaviour would be worked on over a considerably longer period of time than the chemical castration would allow.  Therefore, it can only be used as a guide to how the dog could be after full castration.

:)

Edit to say - I was of the opinion that chemical castration lasts up to 3 months

Hi there

It may be different now but when Baz had tardak about 4 years ago the effects lasted 3 weeks and then really only in the middle week did I see the change in his behaviour.  After the second week the tardak must have started to wear off.

Kind regards
Annie

Well I am still seesawing between yes go ahead and castrate and no wait and give it a few more months. I booked Rory in for the op for Monday but can see myself bottling out! I dont know why I am finding it so difficult to go ahead. I think I am under a bit of pressure because I need someone to look after Rory when we go on hols, but all the people I rang said they would only accept neutered dogs. My mother would look after Rory but she is 88 and I think that length of time might be too much for her. I think that I can improve recall over time, but I am not sure about the marking. If I left it until he was say 18 months would it be too late to improve that aspect?

June all I can say is so far I am pleased, he isn't marking he only seems to go when he needs the toilet so it seems we got him castrated before it became a habit.
Everyone can give you advice but at the end of the day you will have to decide. Have a good long think over the weekend weigh up all the pro's and con's and you do what you think is right for you and your dog; I believe we made the right decision for him and us but what is right for us could be wrong for others.
Good luck.

Yes I agree. Its down to me, I think posting just helps me get it out of my system!

How old was your dog when you had him neutered?

June he is 9 months old. Before he was on a mission trying to make a world record of his own on marking territory, in the end he was lifting his leg but nothing was coming out. We tried everything to make him stop but with no joy, this wasn't the reason why we decided to have him neutered it was a medical reason having him not spraying everywhere is a bonus and has made our walks more enjoyable :)

I have post myself when I need advice sometimes were to close to the situation we cant see the answers sometimes I wish we where all given a crystal ball at birth would make life a bit easier. I do think you know in your heart what way you will go and you just need a little reassurance I was the same.
((((u))))

Hi. Is it right that when a dog is neutered that thier urine doesn't smell as strong? Harvey's wee stinks - kind of an oily, garlicy smell and doesn't have an infection As he is long haired he wets his fur during widdleing and he constantly pongs.

Not my experience!
But I have found that many male dogs either hump everything or mark all over the place as they approach and go through adolescence, due to the testosterone raging around their bodies, just like the confused behaviour of adolescent boys (and some girls?)!  And like most boys, as the hormones level out, they naturally grow into well behaved adults without any surgical intervention if their owners understand what's happening to them. :D

Having been in tears this weekend I spoke to the vet and have decided to postpone the op. We discussed chemical castration as a trial and I might do that. He has given me the phone number of their behaviourist. I am going to see if I can find another dog minder who will accept unneutered dogs. Is there really a problem with neutered and unneutered dogs mixing together? I would like Rory to be able to walk with other dogs socially as he loves it - real pack creature - and he is so well behaved when he is part of a pack.

Poor you June. Is there a reason you have decided against castrating him or postponing it? Is there something stopping you doing it?

Di

I can't put my finger on why I have postponed - my instinct told me not to, or I panicked! I agree with a lot of the posts that his behaviour will improve with time and training but I feel under a certain amount of pressure because it seems that dog minders don't accept intact dogs because of mixing with the other dogs they have so in some respects its others dictating to me what I should do which doesnt feel right. It doesnt seem entirely right to put him through an operation when he isnt ill. I dont think there is enough clear evidence through research to support either argument, its mainly anecdotal and variable depending on circumstances and breed it seems.

Right. Fair enough, you sound very confused. Thanks for replying.
Di

I wonder why the dog-minders won't look after entire dogs? Perhaps they don't feel competent about handling them - which is strange, because they're no more difficult than neutered ones. I'd be having doubts about their capabilities in general. :(

....Jean, could it be that they take bitches in season in? Taking entire dogs would be a huge headache if so.

Di

I find it a little strange too.  Most of the dog sitting services I know of (and have used in the past), only employ sitters who do NOT currently own a dog so there are no other dogs in the homes they stay in