At a show this weekend i ended up in the grooming corner and was absolutely astounded at the rules being blatently broken!!
I watched a woman with en eye-liner pencil blacking out all the white patch on the front chest of her minpin, then a poodle woman spraying laquer into a topknot immediately before going into the ring & cannot begin to tell you how many blokes with black trousers all covered in white chalk/judges hands covered in white chalk after the bullterrier classes!!!  what on earth is going on????

:-D  Oh, welcome to the world of show and enjoy having your eyes opened wide. ;-)

Didn't you notice the interesting marks on the trousers of a BIS winning handler in the Dog Papers the other week

I don't use anything on my dogs, but some of the things I've seen over the years :d :d

Yes, I laughed at that Sarah and wondered if the KC would be along to coat test at his next show.

M.

hi sam have to say to your what is going on the same that goes on every week welcome to the world of showing.
carol

judgedred etc,  perhaps i should point out i have been showing for 30 years, but dont normally end up in the grooming corner  hence my surprise when i saw the activities going on blatantly. OK I know folk laquer topknots etc but the point i was trying to get over was the BLATANTCY of doing it so publicly & not caring who was watching!!! As I am one of the "officials" at the show you would think they would be more careful:!!!

One can only assume no field officer present? :rolleyes:

Whilst recognising that some people will cheat and break rules and regs to win a piece of cardboard (that's all it amounts to basically) I do think that this will continue until judges learn to judge on construction before presentation.  Of course nobody wants to go over filthy dirty dogs but I think judges can get bogged down with the finer asthetic points.  These should really only come into play if all else is equal. 

We've all seen it - one dog beats another because it was in full coat and beautifully presented but the other dog has far better conformation and breed type but is totally out of coat.  I've heard judges say things like "well it IS a beauty competition" - since when???  In a minute every breed is going to end up like Bichons!! (which should not be shown as they are in the ring today according to the breed standard!!).

IMO there are far too many up and coming judges (and some more experienced ones unfortunately) who know diddly squat about general canine construction and judge purely on how pretty and eyecatching a dog is.

Debs

Yeah look at the Havanese they should be shown in their natural state and they are all dolled up over here, well some are.  Glad to see that some people show them the way that they should look though, unfortunately I doubt that they get as far.  As you say, what a shame that some judges can't see past the grooming!

Even in my breed one frequently won that was obviously, brushed combed and scissored into a shape that the breed shouldn't be, it would of done well in the Poodle ring.

I wouldn't personally breach the rules but alot of people do

>In a minute every breed is going to end up like Bichons!! (which should not be shown as they are in the ring today according to the breed standard!!).

That intrigued me, so I went to look at the breed standard - and you're absolutely right!

Surranon is absolutely right, some judges put too much emphasis on presentation over the basic construction. On the other hand some exhibitoirs need to raise their game, last weekend I judge some dogs that STANK. There is a middle way!
Did either of these 'faked' dogs win, and what did you as an 'official' do?

BUt what wins the groups and BIS?  Anything flashy that looks pretty to the eye....

You mean like the Elkhound at Crufts? Not flashy or even pretty doubt Elkhounds SHOULD even look pretty - but still a correct and typical.
I thought I was agreeing with Surrannon that basic construction is the most important - Would I give a group to a dog that stank - NO. No excuse for bad presentation.

the elkhoud looked nicely constructed to me at crufts.  I was more thinking of the aussie...flashy!

There's no excuse for a dog to stink in teh ring, or look flithy, but theres no need to shape the dog's coat, or black out white marks, whiten the white coat.

However if you want to win.....

Yes and then we get dismissive comments from presenters.

There have been 3 Elkhound Group winners in the last 16 years, and the last two got the same lack of enthusiasm from the commentators, except for Mike Stockman with Ch Barlestone Crystal.

It has always been the view in our breed that they should not be bathed less than 3 to 5 days before a show,a dn that only if actually dirty, normally only a few times a eyar.

In the states they are bathed every show, usually the night before, trimmed, with grooming prodcuts and gels used to volumise the coat.  Chalk to bwhiten and all manner of enhancing products including humand dyes to colour ears and masks.

Many breeders there bemoan the lack of corect textured coats.  Some are genetically incorrect, open, overlong and soft, but others are that way because of the constandt bathign and blow drying.

Yes it comes down to what is the purpose of showing?

Is it as I beleive a tool to evaluate and compare future breeding stock and the results of breeders efforts, Or a pageant to show off ones presntation skills and fule ones vanity.

Furthermore the promotion and advertising of winning dogs often goes well beyond pride and can unduly influence novice breeders into thinking those are the only dogs of merit.  the popular sire syndrome.

I have only ever used water to help with combing.  I have used one of those spot cleaning shampoos diluted, for a mud spattered leg, and have used a bit of talc on Jozi's foot which she sometimes sucks and discolours.

I do hope the excessive grooming that goes on in my breed in the USA never takes hold here.

I completely agree with you Brainless, an Elkhound should have a coat to survive in the snow, trimming would be completely wrong - it would be down to judges to penalise any that were trimmed.

Ice Queen - I agree the Aussie at Crufts was flashy - but are you suggesting it wasn't well made or good moving?

ANY coated breed can be 'shaped' either by trimming or grooming, no need for 'product' - it is up to the judges to find what the real shape is under the coat - which is where I was agreeing with Surrannon that not all are capable of doing so.

But if 2 dogs are of pretty much equal merit, one is clean, groomed and well presented, and one looks like it hasnt seen water all yearand hair sticking out everywhere then which will win?

Prizes are handed out in the ring but won at home through hard work in conditioning and preparing dogs - which includes excersise to get them in fit, hard muscle.

bazb I feel that in my opinion that the aussie wasn't typical.  he was a gorgous dog, moved well, but wrong.  An Aussie is a moderate dog, chance, IMO was overdone in movement, angulation, looks, shape etc

We will have to disagree Ice Queen - whilst I can find fault with the Aussie I just cannot see that is is untypical of the breed in movemnet, angulation and shape, it certainlt didnt look 'different' to the rest in the open dog class

Been absent for a couple of days so putting my 2 pennies worth in now :-D

I see no westies have had a beating in this thread :-) ;-)

But to back up what you say Sam here is a little extract from a WHWT book from 1911. Now don't wet your pants :-)

The watchwords of all breeders and exhibitors should be no alteration in type or character, and absoloutely no trimming. One of the great charms of the breed to the ordinary person is that the exhibits are, in the main, shown absolutely natural, and not only look all the better for it but are better for being allowed to retain nature's covering against bleack and bitter weather.  

It goes in to say that any trimming without hesitations should be heavily penalised and that all exhibitors are on a dead level this way and judged on true sport.

Hmmm :-)

I wonder if I wrote that in a previous life Blue?  Would explain why I'm so vehermently opposed to clipping breeds that shouldn't be clipped! :rolleyes:

It is incredible how things have changed eh. little by little I guess but I wonder what some of the breed specialists and exhibitors would think now 90 years on..