Hello all, I was wondering if any wonderful breeders on this forum could possibly help me. I found out yesterday that a (sort of friend)/neighbour is going to breed her pet choc lab, she didnt get her from a particularly good breeder, she knows absolutely nothing about breeding (she doesnt seem to know all that much about dogs at all) I think it is very unlikely that she would do any health tests, she basically just wants cute chocolate lab puppies. As soon as she told me, there was a million things that I was trying to string together to say why she shouldnt, but all I got across was how breeding should be left to people that know what they are doing, I wasnt all that convincing when put on the spot, there was so much that I wanted to say to deter her...I have been reading on this forum for about a year now and after dipping in and out of the breeding section, I have learnt so much but obviously have no personal experience of breeding that I can refer to...I was wondering if some breeders on here could maybe just explain a little about what goes into responsible breeding in general...what goes into choosing a stud dog that is suitable, what needs to be considered, how difficult it is to look after a litter, why it is important to show dogs etc...I tried doing a search but only found snippets from different posts that were helpful...I want something all in one place that I can maybe print off to show her...or some points that I can refer to, to pass on, OR does anyone know a good website about breeding that would be helpful to show her...I would be very greatful for any input into this...I just know she is going into this with her eyes closed, she should NOT become a breeder...any help on this?

You could try printing this off and giving it to her....

Breeding a litter of puppies is a task to be taken very, very seriously. You are producing life of your own volition for a wide variety of reasons. Some of those reasons will be good ones, some will not. But this decision should be thought through very, very carefully. Further, I recommend you consult with your bitch's breeder for guidance in this matter. Dogs should be bred for one reason and one reason only: To improve the breed. If you are reading this with the intention of breeding to make a quick buck, educate the children, or to fulfil your bitch's feminine needs, please don't breed your dog! Seriously, as you'll learn as you read on, done properly, breeding is rarely a moneymaker; more likely a money drain! Children can become educated much more fully than you intended when something goes wrong in a breeding. Losing the bitch and all her puppies is probably not the lesson you intended but it happens all to frequently. But, if you are determined to go on, then please read this thoroughly. It covers the responsible breeding of dogs to produce quality puppies and give them the best start in life.

Preparing the Bitch

What do I need to do before I breed my bitch?
This is really two questions. What should I do before I decide to breed my bitch and, then, once that decision is made, what do I do next.

Okay, what do I do before I decide to breed my bitch?
Before you breed a dog, you need to decide whether or not that dog is an appropriate candidate for breeding. First of all, no bitch should be bred before the age of 2. They are just not physically mature enough yet. Let them grow up and develop before they go through the physical strain of breeding, carrying, and whelping puppies. This shouldn't be a problem however, because you'll be plenty busy during those two years. Your dog will be in preparation for breeding for the first two years of her life. Everything you do for her, including providing quality nutrition and health care, obedience training, showing, working, and loving will make her a better mother and help her to produce a healthier litter.

I can see why nutrition and health care are important concerns, but how do those other things make her a better brood bitch?
They are all important in different ways. The most important is probably the last one. Pregnancy, delivery, and puppy raising are very stressful on a dog and knowing that you love her really does make her job easier. For one thing, she'll trust you to help with the puppies, rather than feeling that she needs to defend them. The obedience training comes into play in the strangest ways. Sometimes a female will get overly anxious when her new puppies start crying: being able to put her on a down stay so that she is giving them ready access to what they want (food!) will give you great peace of mind. These are just a few examples of why all this preparation is important.

Okay, but what about showing and working, how can those have any effect on her qualities as a brood bitch?
There are two reasons why a brood bitch should "get out of the house." First of all, she'll be a happier dog if she has activities in her life and gets to go places with you and do fun things. If she's happier, she'll be a better mother. It's that simple. Secondly, you need to have some way of knowing that your bitch is worthy of breeding. That sounds very judgmental, but I'll remind you that we are discussing responsible breeding here. That means that we are breeding to better the breed. The best way to ensure that you are improving the breed is to only breed quality animals to other quality animals with an eye to minimizing faults and strengthening good qualities. We'll discuss more on choosing a stud dog later, however, you also need to choose your brood bitch. If you are starting out with your first dog, you'll need to look long and hard at her and decide if she's worthy of breeding. This has nothing to do with how much you love her - obviously you do - this has to do with bettering the breed. This can be a difficult decision to make when your heart is involved. Hearts tend to fuzz up our vision so that faults are minimized and good qualities are enhanced. This is where the idea of showing and testing our animals originated. These events give us a better idea of whether or not our dogs are worthy of breeding. But, keep in mind, everyone has their own standards and they won't all agree. Some people won't breed a bitch until she's a Champion in the show ring. Some people don't consider a bitch worthy of breeding until she's got her Field Trial or Working Gundog Certificate.  You have to make these decisions yourself, keeping in mind the idea of bettering the breed. At the minimum, you should have her evaluated by another, more knowledgeable pair of eyes. Her breeder would be an ideal choice, however, that's not always possible.  Any experienced breeder in your particular breed should be able to help you evaluate your bitch honestly and without the rosy glow of love changing your perspective.

Okay, I'm satisfied that she's a quality bitch, worthy of breeding, what's the next step?
Hold on there! Not so fast! This is a long process, remember? There is another reason you need to wait until your bitch is over two years of age. Health Checks! You'll need to have various health checks done in order to determine whether or not your dog should be bred.

Hips and Elbows need to be scored and fall below the breed average for Labs (which at the moment is 15) but preferably to fall below the mean (which is 10)  Elbows should be 0:0... A current clear eye certificate at time of mating....this needs to be done annually
Choosing a Stud Dog

Choosing a sire for your litter is as important a decision as choosing your bitch was originally. You need to spend some time and effort on this decision. This is a good time to get some expert advice. If at all possible, you should consult with your bitch's breeder and ask them to spend some time with you going over the various options so that you understand why one dog would be better for your bitch than another. If your breeder or another expert isn't available to spend some time with you, then you'll need to do the research on your own so you can make a knowledgeable decision. The first thing you'll want to do is take the information you've gathered over the years about your bitch and analyse her strengths and weaknesses. Does she have a weak top line but a nice front? How is her rear angulation? What about her coat texture? Her temperament? You can see know why getting your dog out and showing and/or working her can be helpful in this process. If you don't know what's wrong with your bitch, you don't know what you want to fix in a future generation. And, that's really what you are trying to do -- improve the breed by improving on your bitch. So be brutally honest with yourself. You know you love your bitch, that's not in question here, but if you can't be honest about her flaws, then you can't fix them in a future generation. You'll want to focus on one, maybe two, problems that you'd like to see improved and look for a stud dog who is strong in those areas without being too weak in some other area. It can become a delicate balancing act -- of course, with no guarantee of success. There are two main theories in breeding that you'll want to understand. The first one is probably the simplest: breeding like to like. This means that you take the overall look of the bitch and find a stud dog that physically compliments her look. The theory is that if you breed like to like, you'll get like.

The second way to approach a breeding is more complicated. It's called line breeding. It involves analysing the pedigrees of your bitch and the potential stud dogs to choose a good match. There are several ways to approach line breeding. First of all, you need to understand several terms. Line breeding is similar to breeding like to like only instead of collecting physical similarities, you are collecting the genes of a particular dog. Inbreeding is an extremely close line breeding. When you are starting out in breeding, you want to keep away from inbreeding as it is risky unless you are very sure of the pedigrees involved. The last type of pedigree-breeding is an outcross.

An outcross breeding will have a pedigree where there are no, or at least very few, dogs in common. This often happens when you are breeding like to like. Most breeders practice some form of line breeding, generally focusing on one of the important studs in their breed. Of course, you want to make sure that the dog you are concentrating on is worthy of the honour. If you line breed on a mediocre dog - or a dog with a particular health problem - you'll get what you asked for.

This type of breeding is particularly tricky and you want to make sure that you have carefully researched the dogs in your bitch's pedigree so that you know where you'd want to go with the line breeding. In practice, you'll probably want to employ a combination of these two techniques. You'll want to find a pedigree that is complimentary to your bitch and a dog that is physically compatible as well. Again, this is a really good time to seek the advice of knowledgeable breeders. Choosing a stud dog is also a really good reason to become active in the breed's activities while your bitch is young. This will allow you to be familiar with various stud dogs before you bitch comes in season. Once you've narrowed your choices down to two or three likely candidates, you'll want to call the stud dog owners and interview them about their dogs. Most stud dog owners will be honest with you about what their dogs are producing, their strengths and weaknesses, and what you can expect. If they aren't forthcoming about the problems as well as the benefits of their dogs, you should probably steer clear of them. At some point in the process, you'll have to make a decision about which dog will be best for your litter. No one can make this decision for you but if you've done your homework and been honest with yourself about your bitch, then you'll probably find a compatible dog. Then you are ready to enter the genetic crapshoot and see what you get. Because we know so little about the complicated genetics behind our dogs, you really are making a shot in the dark.

>pet choc lab, she didnt get her from a particularly good breeder, she knows absolutely nothing about breeding (she doesnt seem to know all that much about dogs at all)

over 45000 Labs were registered last year, more than the whole gundog group combined.....does you friend/neighbour really think that we need another litter of poorly bred chocolate Labradors to add to those numbers??? :(  

There are no such things as cute chocolate Labrador pups, there are good well bred pups and poorly bred pups, and the latter are anything but cute!!!

Sorry, but it seems another BYB is about to hit the ground running :( :(

This might help.
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

Thank you so much Kayc and Val, this is just the type of information I was hoping for, I am going to do everything I can to try and deter her from doing this, I cant tell you how upset I am over this, its so hard when you know the person, and feel so angry at their decision and know how wrong it is, and I just felt so inadequate at explaining why...I have no problem in actually printing out this information and putting it in her hand. Thank you so much again, Ill let you know how I get on!

You could try the financial route, eg, you could tell her how much money it could cost her.  The first litter I bred, the bitch had to have a ceasarian (sp), she had 15 puppies and it took a long time to sell them all - I was very careful about finding suitable homes.  It cost me about £2000 and that was nearly 20 years ago.  (And I had taken the responsible route, sought the help of the breed club, my bitch's sire, and had an ordinary litter's worth of homes sorted!)

Also, you could warn her that breeders are liable if the pups develop health problems so she could be sued.

Show her that video that's on the general list.... :-(

So far, my litter has cost £2000 to create and raise, that doesn't include the extra high quality food during pregnancy or lactation, or the registration fees or any additional Vets bills I may incur between now and when the puppies leave.

Not all dogs shell puppies out like peas and if she doesn't know what she is doing or the signs to look for, she runs the risk of losing her bitch and the puppies too.

Good quality Chocolate Labradors are also the hardest colour of all to breed and get right.

This happens so often.

People just see cute pups and money and that is all they think of.

With all the information you have gathered I would go to her as though you are being helpful and say I thought I would offer you this list of helpful hints.  And hopefully after reading it will help her to change her mind, or research more.

I took 4 years myself to research my breed and feel confident enough to breed, I visited other helpful breeders, watched studs at work, watched bitches whelping and gathered all the information I needed before I even thought of attempting to breed myself.  There is no point in breeding if you are not going to offer a proffessional service and be able to answer any question asked with regards to the breed you have.

She will also need to have all the medical knowledge that she can attain and be prepared for things if they should go wrong. And also be prepared to offer a life long service.

Even after pointing everything out, she may well still decide to continue, there is not a lot to be done, as I say over and over again, it is the people who buy the pups who are to blame for this sort of breeding, they have the choice of a good, researched breeder, with all certificates or someone who just wants to try it!

If she still goes ahead all you can do is wish her luck. (And try not to buy one of the pups! :-) )

Another point

If she doesn't know what genes her bitch carries, she could very well end up producing a mixed litter of chocolate puppies and yellow puppies :(

Try printing the articles here off too :
http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

I would also point out that in this day at age and every out to get compensation for one thing and another.  People are clued in and if the puppy ends up with some sort of defect there can be litigation against the breeder.  This sometimes scares people off. Example.  The Labrador breeder who bred from sound, health tested dogs.  One puppy got hip dysplasia and the breeder was taken to court, the puppy owners won the case.  Their arguement: The breeder didn't tell them that the Labrador has a disposition to Hip Dysplasia and that if they had been told that they wouldn't have bought one!!!!  Breeder had a lot of money to pay out.

That's disgusting,  It could also have been said that the new owners hadn't looked into getting the breed properly because if they had they would know that this is one of the major problems of the breed !

Thank God that we don't go and test each other to ensure that we end up with no bad traits, though sometimes I wish that people had to much more than dogs:d :d

Surely everything in life is a risk but as long as we ensure that we try and stop the problem or lessen it isn't this better?  Please don't turn us into America where people sue for anything and everything!
By the way I do hip score and eye test my dogs :d

Because of the above mentioned case, I now list all the conditions that RR's have been known to suffer from in my contract and get people to sign to say that I have told them!

I know.  I have a friend who has a cataract in one eye. He always jokes that he should never have been bred from!!!!