>Its this suggested onus on the responsibility lying 100% with the entire bitches owner

The bitch owner assumes responsibility because it would be the bitch's owner that would have to deal with the consequences.  How is the entire dog owner supposed to assume 50% ownership of responsibility if they don't know there is a bitch in season within the vicinity? 

Also to add - what if the bitch gets caught by a powerful dog that the bitch's owner cannot control before the dog owner grabs hold of him, who is going to take responsibility for the results? 

"The bitch owner assumes responsibility because it would be the bitch's owner that would have to deal with the consequences.  How is the entire dog owner supposed to assume 50% ownership of responsibility if they don't know there is a bitch in season within the vicinity? "

The dog owner still has to take some responsibility though.

"what if the bitch gets caught by a powerful dog that the bitch's owner cannot control before the dog owner grabs hold of him, who is going to take responsibility for the results?"

Equal - bitch owner cos they've got an entire in-season bitch and dog owner cos they can't control it!  However, if any dog owner can't adequately control their dog then they aren't exactly responsible owners are they - you don't get/handle a dog that you can't control :rolleyes:

>Equal - bitch owner cos they've got an entire in-season bitch and dog owner cos they can't control it!  However, if any dog owner can't adequately control their dog then they aren't exactly responsible owners are they - you don't get/handle a dog that you can't control

I think you've dug yourself into a hole on this thread.  As has already been said, in a perfect world there would be equal responsibility but in reality this doesn't happen and cannot be enforced.  I think it is unreasonable to expect that a number of owners of entire males might not be caught out and yet not be irresponsible owners.  If you throw a ball to your dog and he keeps on running towards an in season bitch, the bitch is say a spaniel and entire male is large breed with determination on his mission, can you see what I mean?  What is the bitch owner to do?  Has the entire male dog owner been irresponsible?  I think prevention is better than cure and the bitch owner would be best advised to avoid this type of situation for all concerned.

"I think you've dug yourself into a hole on this thread."

And why would that be exactly?  Because I dare to have an opinion that the 'majority' of posters in this topic fiercely oppose?  Because I dare voice my opionion(s)?  Like hello this is an internet discussion forum - a place where differing opinions are encouraged! :rolleyes:

"I think prevention is better than cure"

Yep I agree but unfortunately there are many dog owners out there who don't even attempt the prevention part and others who don't adequately 'enforce' it :rolleyes:

>Because I dare to have an opinion that the 'majority' of posters in this topic fiercely oppose?  Because I dare voice my opionion(s)?

Not at all. It simply seems that, rather than explain a point of view, you're now resorting to 'ner ner' comments. Forgive me if I've misinterpreted them. :) It also seems very peculiar to disagree with people who expect, and are willing, to take 100% of the responsibility for something! Usually people try to shirk responsibilities!

>Yep I agree but unfortunately there are many dog owners out there who don't even attempt the prevention part

I think in this discussion it's the bitch owners who need to shoulder the lion's share of responsibility for prevention. ;)

>And why would that be exactly?  Because I dare to have an opinion that the 'majority' of posters in this topic fiercely oppose? 

No, not at all.  The point is that you don't agree that the owners of entire bitches should take full responsibility for keeping them free from unwanted matings in public places, yet you don't have an alternative solution either.  In your opinion how is the entire male dog owner supposed to control an off-lead dog when there is an in-season bitch nearby?

>how is the entire male dog owner supposed to control an off-lead dog when there is an in-season bitch nearby?

They cop hold and put the dog on a lead.  I know this system works because it has for me, in this area, for the last 17 years and I don't think I remember inconveniencing the same dog owner more than once, twice at the most.  It doesn't work in my other area where the dog owners are less willing or capable.  Anyhoo I said this way, way back at the beginning :) 
I'm not posting again because a) I've said all I have to say really and b) whenever I see a point raised in newposts it takes me half an hour to find that post in the thread in order to reply! :D  So all I will say is if anyone reads something and should happen to think "ooh I wonder what Isabel would say to that" just read back through the 3, maybe 4 now :), pages, my response is there already somewhere!

>They cop hold and put the dog on a lead. 

Would be good but it doesn't happen at the best of times.  My dog doesn't like being approached by dogs and so long as they don't approach her she will ignore them but unfortunately dogs will invariably run over and this is without the lure of pheromones. 

I mean, they cop hold when you ask them to.  It works round here, but it is pleasantsville :), so I suspect if you called out to people not to let their dogs approach just because yours doesn't like it they would do their best to comply also.  I would not suggest my system would work everywhere in fact I know it doesn't which is why my bitch ended up being spayed at the age of eight.  But I do think it's a shame other areas aren't like it, knowing it is possible.

You obviously didn't see my post at Christmas when I was "mugged" by 6 dogs for the turkey in my pocket   4 of the dogs were Labs and the other 2 I don't know which breed but were large.  These were part of a larger group of about 9 dogs being walked by 2 women who I had to shout at time and again to call the dogs off me as they had me surrounded and one was jumping up in front of me and another was persistently nudging my pocket.  My dog was going potty running around like something possessed and the women just looked at me as if I was asking them to do something beneath them.  Defo not pleasantville around here :rolleyes: :D This type of experience might just help explain my paranoid behaviour regards my dog when she was in season though?

"The point is that you don't agree that the owners of entire bitches should take full responsibility for keeping them free from unwanted matings in public places"

I'm not just talking about matings I'm talking about unwanted attention whether it be in a 'public place' or their home environment.

"yet you don't have an alternative solution either."

If I did then the "world would be a better place, for you and for me and the entire human race" - sorry that song just popped into my head as I was typing but it says a lot :)

"In your opinion how is the entire male dog owner supposed to control an off-lead dog when there is an in-season bitch nearby?"

Well it depends where it is!  If, as I have stated before, its a 'busy dog walking area' then the bitch shouldn't be there in the first place.  If its like around my area then the entire male dog shouldn't be off lead anyway but a lot are.  In an ideal world all entire bitches would be walked on lead away from 'known busy dog walking areas' and all entire male dogs would be kept on lead where they blummin well should be.  All owners would have fully secure gardens/home environments not allowing for any dog, no matter how big or small to get in or out of their property.  Entire bitch owners would know the goings on of the dog walking sect around their local area (no matter how many different 'routes' were taken) so that they knew when it was 'safe for them to go out'.  Etc etc etc  However, this ain't gonna happen which is where the problem lies hence this escalating debate.  I'm generally talking about the owners that don't act '100% responsibly' not the owners that do and there are a lot of 'less knowledgable'/'irresponsible' owners out there.

> If, as I have stated before, its a 'busy dog walking area' then the bitch shouldn't be there in the first place.

Well I can't see where you have stated this before (except in your recent post) so am delighted that you have changed your mind on this issue.  I assume then that you cannot hold a dog owner 50% responsible for an in season bitch that shouldn't be there in the first place then? ;)

"Well I can't see where you have stated this before (except in your recent post)"

I have stated it before, possibly not in exactly the same words, but its there   Edit to say - I've found 2 occurances on page 2 alone :)

"so am delighted that you have changed your mind on this issue."

Sorry but your 'delight' will be short lived because I most certainly haven't

"I assume then that you cannot hold a dog owner 50% responsible for an in season bitch that shouldn't be there in the first place then?"

I didn't say that I did in that particular instance   To reiterate yet again - I've been saying that in some instances dog owners should be held equally responsible, in others they should bear some of the responsibility.

Your reply to my post commenting that it was selfish to walk in season bitches in popular dog walking areas where the majority of dogs are walked off lead was:

> Selfish for the entire dog owners maybe but not selfish for the bitches owners.  You see this is the problem there is no-one to 'blame' its all about responsibility.  If the entire bitch owners have their bitch on a lead and under control then they are being responsible.  If the entire dog owners don't have their dogs on lead and under control then are they being irresponsible?..............Therefore, IMO each should carry equal responsibility.

"Your reply to my post commenting that it was selfish to walk in season bitches in popular dog walking areas where the majority of dogs are walked off lead was:

    > Selfish for the entire dog owners maybe but not selfish for the bitches owners.  You see this is the problem there is no-one to 'blame' its all about responsibility.  If the entire bitch owners have their bitch on a lead and under control then they are being responsible.  If the entire dog owners don't have their dogs on lead and under control then are they being irresponsible?..............Therefore, IMO each should carry equal responsibility."

Yes but I also re-replied to that comment in another post saying that I had misread the original and that in the circumstances you did in fact describe I agree that the bitches owners were irresponsible because although they had the bitch under control (i.e. on a lead) they shouldn't have taken her to a known 'busy dog walking area'

"It simply seems that, rather than explain a point of view, you're now resorting to 'ner ner' comments."

No thats not what I'm doing at all :)

"Forgive me if I've misinterpreted them."

I'm a forgiving kinda person so ok - but only seeing as its you ;)

"It also seems very peculiar to disagree with people who expect, and are willing, to take 100% of the responsibility for something!"

Thats becuase I don't believe that they are 100% responsible.

"Usually people try to shirk responsibilities!"

Very true!

"I think in this discussion it's the bitch owners who need to shoulder the lion's share of responsibility for prevention."

Don't different situations and circumstances mean that different levels of responsibility should be born by each owner though?

>Thats becuase I don't believe that they are 100% responsible.

Brainless, KayC, Teri, myself - you don't think we're responsible? We're the ones who accept that, as bitch owners, it's our responsibility to keep them safe when in season. It seems very odd that you'd discourage that attitude.

"Brainless, KayC, Teri, myself - you don't think we're responsible? eek We're the ones who accept that, as bitch owners, it's our responsibility to keep them safe when in season."

You've taken that the wrong way.  I believe you to be highly responsible owners.  What I don't believe is that it is solely the responsibility of a bitch owner to make 100% sure that there is no unwanted attention from an entire male and that the owner of that entire male has zero responsibility.  Despite the best efforts of a bitch owner unwanted attention cannot be guaranteed.  Take for example an in-season bitch relieving herself in the garden (attended by the owner).  An entire male gets a whiff of her scent and either camps on your front door step causing a nuisance or leaps over the 6ft+ high fence to get to the bitch.  Why isn't the onus placed on the dog owner for not keeping their entire male fully under control?  Therefore, some responsibility, if not equal in some instances, has to lie with the dog owner!

"It seems very odd that you'd discourage that attitude."

I most definately do not :)

> Don't different situations and circumstances mean that different levels of responsibility should be born by each owner though?

But you been saying that entire bitch and dog owners have EQUAL responsibility.  This is the issue I disagree with.  I don't see how it is possible given that the decisions  of how best to deal with this situation are made by the bitches owner.

Especially considering that the bitch's owner is the one with the relevant information.

"But you been saying that entire bitch and dog owners have EQUAL responsibility."

Yes in some posts referring to specific circumstances I have been saying equal responsibility but in general I have been saying atleast some :)

"I don't see how it is possible given that the decisions  of how best to deal with this situation are made by the bitches owner."

I've given examples of differing situations and what I am disuputing is the seemingly blanket view of no matter what the situation the bitches owners are 100% responsible :rolleyes:

>Also to add - what if the bitch gets caught by a powerful dog that the bitch's owner cannot control before the dog owner grabs hold of him, who is going to take responsibility for the results

If the bitches owner had been responsible and not taken her out where other dog walkers go, then, with all due respect, it is entirely the responsibility of the bitch owner....

If I took my bitches out during a season, knowing there was any possibility of entire dogs being in the area, then I would only have myself to blame....You cannot blame an dog for trying to do what is only natural.....A dog owner cannot keep a dog restricted simply because there might be an in season bitch on his route.....It is the bitch owners responsibility to keep both her own bitch and any other dog safe...

I keep entire bitches.....I must respect that other people dont!!!!  My choice

>knowing there was any possibility of entire dogs being in the area,

I would just point out that very, very few people are as fortunate as you having land where you can guarantee that.

>no it wasn't responsible because ignorance and arrogance asside they shouldn't have taken their in-season bitch there in the first place.

Well I'm really confused here, because in an earlier reply to me regarding walking an in season bitch in offlead dog walking areas, you said the entire bitch owners were being responsible by having their bitch on the lead

>"I too live in a suburban area, with a lot of parkland and some wonderful offlead dog walking areas (which are also very busy).  To bring an in season bitch into these areas is IMO utterly selfish, although it happens frequently."

Selfish for the entire dog owners maybe but not selfish for the bitches owners.  You see this is the problem there is no-one to 'blame' its all about responsibility.  If the entire bitch owners have their bitch on a lead and under control then they are being responsible.

>If the entire bitch owners have their bitch on a lead and under control then they are being responsible.

Not if she's in season, and the owner is aware that the area is frequented by off-lead dogs. The responsible thing is to keep her away. :) Just as it's responsible to keep her away if she's aggressive or infectious ...

> Selfish for the entire dog owners maybe but not selfish for the bitches owners.  You see this is the problem there is no-one to 'blame' its all about responsibility.  If the entire bitch owners have their bitch on a lead and under control then they are being responsible.

Ooops that bit should have been in quotes - it's not something I said - or would ever say   LOL

Phew! I thought that seemed to be a volte-face! :D

"Well I'm really confused here, because in an earlier reply to me regarding walking an in season bitch in offlead dog walking areas, you said the entire bitch owners were being responsible by having their bitch on the lead"

Yes they were being responsible by having their bitch controlled and on lead but I had happened to ill read your post and not noticed that you said it was in a 'busy dog walking area'.  Incidentally I take that term to mean that there are more often than not several if not many dogs out and about when another dog walker is.  If this were the case and there were indeed several or more other dogs out and about at the particular time the entire bitches owners got out of their car and proceeded to take the bitch for a walk then yes it was irresponsible of them.  However, if it was quiet and there were no other dogs in sight in that instance they would have been being responsible.

"Selfish for the entire dog owners maybe but not selfish for the bitches owners.  You see this is the problem there is no-one to 'blame' its all about responsibility.  If the entire bitch owners have their bitch on a lead and under control then they are being responsible."

I have never tried to attribute "blame".  From this topic and other frequent topics the 'blame' is seemingly laid on the bitch owners full stop and that is what I am disputing.

I wouldn't walk my in season bitches anywhre dogs had a right or I had any expectations of dogs being off lead.

I certainly would not have used the canal path, as that would mean spoiling the walks for the entire dogs met.

I stick to the streets where no dogs are allowed to be off lead.

There simply aren't enough streets to give mine a walk round here beyond 5 minutes I expect that will be the case in many rural homes.  Yes, it's unfortunately if it spoils that dog's walk on that particular day, I don't walk my dogs the same time every day so it would be unlucky if we met more than a couple of times during a season, but the way I see it is, that is the price of having an entire animal, dog or bitch.  It is inconvenient, owning an entire animal is at times, but I really can't see why the inconvenience can not be shared rather than all on one and no inconvenience to the other expecially when not sharing means not only the occasional spoiled walk but no walk for a month.

Both dogs and bitches need off lead excersise. Bitches in season, unfortunately should not be allowed off lead - this is usually for 4 weeks twice a year. The boys are "in season" 52 weeks and cannot be expected to be kept on lead for their entire lives. Surely it is not unreasonable that bitches owners use common sense and show a bit of consideration for 8 weeks a year? Even a castrated male is capabable of tying with a bitch, and apart from the obvious, a mating in such circumstances can cause the poor bitch a great deal of trauma. I really do not believe that poor education is an excuse - most bitch owners must know their bitch is in season and will attract interest from other dogs. Even other bitches show interest in an in season bitch.  

I'm not suggesting they are kept on lead for 52 weeks just for the very rare occasion that they meet an in season bitch.  I'm not expecting an owner to achieve this is a bit open space like a park or field either just in the narrow confines of a path where capture of a reasonably well trained dog will be achievable.  I know this works because I have achieved a 100% success rate for 17 years.  I don't have my bitch off lead by the way but of course that is not enough if the owner is unable to control their dog or, as I have encountered elsewhere is frightened to , in which case to fulfull their responsibilities I think they should consider castration or are we saying there are no responsibilites to owning an entire dog and being out and about?

Of course there are responsibilities to owning any animal. Now, how is someone to know when they are going to meet an in season bitch so they can put their dog on the lead in readiness?

You tell them.  :)

Sorry - I am talking about owners with a bitch in season that is being walked (on or off lead) where dogs are running free - park, canal path, whatever. By the time the said owner is in a position to advise the owner of the dog that his girl is in season, the chances are it will be a bit late. So is it the dog owners fault that the boy was off lead or the bitch owners fault for going where dogs are off lead?

In the case of park or a field  I would say the bitch owners fault.  I'm not defending anyone who doesn't take any responsibility but on the canal path where a reasonably controlled dog can be captured easily I don't see any problem in fact I haven't found any problem :) and that seems a reasonable way of sharing the responsibilites to me. You said above that you accepted there were responsibilities in owning any animal but I'm still not clear what you think the actual responsibilities of owning an entire dog out and about are.

I could give a very long list of responsibilities of a dog owner (entire or altered) but I am realistic enough to know that even the best behaved dog is capable of being "deaf" when an in season bitch crosses his path. I doubt many people could say in honesty that whatever the situation they could be 100% sure their dog would obey. Dont your dogs go to greet and meet other dogs? Do you always think they do it because it is a bitch in season and so put them on lead "in case"?  

>Dont your dogs go to greet and meet other dogs? Do you always think they do it because it is a bitch in season and so put them on lead "in case"?  

That's why everyone has to be reasonable and share the responsibility.  By choosing a narrow path with ease of catching and a hedge to back her into if necessary (which I have never had to do :) and calling out to the approaching owner I am doing my bit I just ask them to do their bit which I must say I find people round here very helpful with.

A canal towpath certainly wouldn't be my choice of suitable place to walk an in-season bitch. In this area they're very well-used for dog-walking, usually offlead, and any dog would have to pass within 2 feet of my bitch, and no possibility for either to take avoiding action - talk about rubbing his nose in it! At least in an open field I could keep down-wind of other dogs or take a different route.

I can only tell you it has worked very well for me. I'm sorry if that is an inconvenience occasionally to a dog but that to me is the price of having entire animals. I would not feel comfortable in a very open area where you would have to have eyes all round that there was not a dog approaching down wind on the other side of the hedge for instance and much more difficult for the owner without good control to get hold of them.

I wouldn't want to let my in-season bitch come close enough to another dog to be able to converse with its owner!

"I'm not suggesting they are kept on lead for 52 weeks just for the very rare occasion that they meet an in season bitch"

Like ClaireyS - I walk my dog in a very popular dog walking area and it is NOT a very rare occasion to come across an in season bitch.  It is frustratingly common :(, and by the time they are in shouting distance, the dog is already likely to have picked up the scent.
I agree with you that male dog owners should also keep their dogs under control, and am sorry to hear of your experiences, but if every entire bitch owner had your attitude, then in my area entire dog owners would not be able to let their dogs offlead. 

I'm not clear why you should think an entire dogs owner should share responsibilities for a bitch being out in a dog walking area while in season.  Of course all dogs should be under control, but lure of an in season bitch can be too much even for a well trained dog.  We should all be responsible for our dogs, but I aways thought that responsibile entire bitch owners did not walk them in places where they are likely to meet other dog owners while in season - after all, it is only a couple of times a year - if they are unable to to that, in order to fulfull their responsibilities should they not consider spaying?

Just out of curiosity, would you feel in any way responsible if an entire dog had been walked down that same canal path, say fifteen minutes after you, had picked up the scent of your bitch and chased after you, following you across a road and possibly into the path of a car?  Whose responsibility would that be?

I have already pointed out the differences in areas.  I am not defending the owners of bitches that go to popular areas where it is difficult if not impossible to control events.  In my one area unneutered dogs are rare so I not only think it reasonable to share the burden but have found it actually works.  In my other area which sounds like yours it doesn't hence I had to have my dog spayed.  I'm not prepared to not walk my bitch for a month for the reasons I gave above.

>had picked up the scent of your bitch and chased after you, following you across a road and possibly into the path of a car? Whose responsibility would that be?

The responsibility would be the same as the owner who was not able to control their dog leaving a park to chase us on the road opposite our house.  If she had been in her garden he may well have smelt her.  Along the tow path dogs may pass the homes of people over the road with bitches in season on their property.   People who cannot control their dogs reasonably or own a dog they cannot physically control should consider their ability to keep him entire as I had to consider my ability to keep my bitch entire in an area where securing her was more difficult.  I would ask you the same question as I have asked others what responsibilities do the owners of entire dogs have out and about?

But the fact a dog is entire or castrated does not make any difference if it is an unsuitable owner who cant control him?

Well at least if he is castrated the risk is very much less and if the very worst happen you will not have puppies resulting so seems like a reasonable solution for the owner out of their depth training or size wise.

So you are saying that dogs should be castrated as a matter of course. Castrate them and at least there wont be any unwanted puppies - or wanted ones for that matter. Whilst asking about responsibilities what of the responsibility of the breeder who sells the dogs? Should they tell everyone to castrate?

"So you are saying that dogs should be castrated as a matter of course."

No Isabel's saying the dogs should be castrated because they have 'irresponsible' owners

I don't like this whole 'responsible' and 'irresponsible' thing cos many owners who are being put in the 'irresponsible' category aren't - maybe they are just naive/uneducated but certainly not 'irresponsible'.  I'm just using the two terms pretty broadly cos I can't think of anything to put "in the middle" where a lot of owners would lie

Anyway, IMO to be classed as a 'responsible' owner it doesn't mean that you are 100% perfect.  With our last two dogs, our first dogs as a family, we learnt a lot over the duration of their lives.  Many things we wouldn't dream of doing with our current dog but we did then what we believed to be best.  However, now through learning and having that previos experience behind us we have improved if you like.  Yes it is about common sense as that forms the basis of anything but seems to be diminishes in people rapidly, but its also about knowledge and ability.  You can read all the books you like but you only ever truly learn by putting things into practice and through experience.  Life afterall is about learning.

maybe Knowledgeable?

"maybe Knowledgeable?"

What?

The word you wanted to use instead of responsible irresponsible.