"Nor does an entire bitches owner KNOW when an entire dog may appear, and has nor do they have control over where the dog is walked so its the same isn't it" 

Well, one doesn't have to be a mathematician to realise that the odds increase considerably if they walk in an area popular with dog walkers and the difficulties are increased if those dogs are usually offlead, so no I don't think it's the same.

"Well, one doesn't have to be a mathematician to realise that the odds increase considerably if they walk in an area popular with dog walkers and the difficulties are increased if those dogs are usually offlead, so no I don't think it's the same."

But IF the bitch was being walked in a 'quiet area' at an 'unsociable time' on a lead there is still the possibility of an entire dog being there :rolleyes:  I don't and haven't disputed the fact that in-season bitch owners should avoid busy dog walking areas and keep their bitch on a lead.  I'm just saying that it wouldn't make the possibility of meeting entire male dogs zero

Unless you make castration compulsory there will never be a time when you dont "stand a chance" of meeting one. The common sense way is surely to walk in season bitches in places where you are not likely to meet an off lead dog - including castrated ones who can still cause trauma to the bitch or an accident.

Oh Fillis you are continuing to take what I'm saying out of context...

Don't think anyone would disagree with that peewee.  Zero possibility can only be achieved by keeping in season bitches confined to the house, which may or may not be acceptable to the owner.  However, I would accept that having the bitch on lead and trying to avoid heavily dog populated areas at busy times is the sign of a responsible in season bitch owner.  As an entire male dog owner, I wouldn't ask for more :)

"Zero possibility can only be achieved by keeping in season bitches confined to the house"

There's no such thing as zero possibility though is there?  And that's not what I'm saying anyway.  What I'm trying to get across is that this topic is about the owners of the dogs and not just about the dogs themselves!  Yes on here the vast majority of people are responsible dog owners who will take every precuation neccessary to keep their dogs safe etc but what about you next door neighbour/friend/Joe Bloggs down the street - do they possess the common sense/knowledge/experience and do as you do?  The answer to that would be no - everybody is different, have different levels of knowledge/experience, look after their animals in differing ways etc etc.  Never has this been about 'responsible' dog owners who are 100% perfect but about the 'irresponsible' one's who range from naive to those who quite frankly need a good kick up the backside

For this reason the onus is on the owner of the in season bitch as it is they who will risk the consequenses.

"For this reason the onus is on the owner of the in season bitch as it is they who will risk the consequenses."

Even if the in-season bitches owners are the 'responsible' one's and the entire dog owners are the 'irresponsible one's!?

Yes. The bitch is the one who'd have the puppies, so the bitch owner is the one with the main responsibility to make sure that doesn't happen. That may not be fair, but it's 'real life'.

Yes of course zero risk is possible. If I kept my in season bitch confined to my upstairs bedroom for the duration of her season there would be zero risk of her accidentally meeting an entire male.

When dealing with dog owners I've found it the safest bet to assume that everyone else is a complete loony with no sense of responsibility, so it's entirely down to me to keep my bitch safe. If that means putting myself out and making life difficult for myself, so be it. Better safe than sorry.
:)

"Yes of course zero risk is possible. If I kept my in season bitch confined to my upstairs bedroom for the duration of her season there would be zero risk of her accidentally meeting an entire male."

But this topic is now not just about 'risk' its become about bitches seasons being 'flaunted' so even if the poor thing was "confined to [an] upstairs bedroom for the duration of her season" it still wouldn't make the possibility of an entire male being 'tormented' by her scent zero would it.

Lets face facts - there's responsible owners and there's irreponsible owners.  There's entire males who will be 'tormented' by a bitch 'flaunting' its season and there's those that won't be.  There's entire bitches that will be planning the great escape to find a mate and there's those that won't.  There's dogs walked on lead there's dogs that aren't.  There's dogs that are attended at all times when out of the house (even when still on the property) there's those that aren't.  There's dogs allowed to roam there's those that aren't.  There's dogs who are very well looked after and there's those that aren't.  There's dogs that would benefit from neutering and there's those that aren't.  There's owners that would benefit from their dog being neutered and there's those for which it isn't 'necessary'. Etc, etc, etc.

This zero possibility thing is a non-starter because there are way too many factors.  The point me and Isabel were trying to get across is that yes owners should be responsible for their dogs but that their responsibility does not stop there.  To use and analolgy its like driving a car - yes you are responsible for your own safety but you are also equally as resonsible for the safety of other road users.  Do you catch my drift?

>But this topic is now not just about 'risk' its become about bitches seasons being 'flaunted' so even if the poor thing was "confined to [an] upstairs bedroom for the duration of her season" it still wouldn't make the possibility of an entire male being 'tormented' by her scent zero would it.

A dog (even a castrated dog) is far more likely to be tormented by an in-season bitch crossing his path outside than he is if she's upstairs in a house. An intelligent, responsible bitch owner will be aware of this and act accordingly, modifying their routine in whatever ways may be necessary. :)

"But this topic is now not just about 'risk' its become about bitches seasons being 'flaunted'"
Where does it say that? LOL  I thought it was about what is considered fair and responsible when exercising in season bitches and how much responsibility rests with the bitches owner and how much rests with the owners of entire (or castrated/interested) dogs.

Whilst I don't agree with it being 'cruel' to keep a bitch in while in season I think it perfectly reasonable to take bitches out in areas where there is a low risk of encountering other dogs and those risks are minimised and should be easily controlled - ie on road, where dogs will be onlead etc. 
Walking an in season bitch while on lead (and therefore under control) in a popular dog walking area is, IMO, not responsible, the chances of encountering males are too high, not just putting the bitch at risk, but possibly causing distress not just to dogs, but possible their owners too.

As I've said before, it is not just about responsibility, but also being courteous to other dog owners. 

""But this topic is now not just about 'risk' its become about bitches seasons being 'flaunted'"
Where does it say that? LOL"

Oh somebody said it somewhere

"I thought it was about what is considered fair and responsible when exercising in season bitches and how much responsibility rests with the bitches owner and how much rests with the owners of entire (or castrated/interested) dogs."

This topic was originally about neutering - to neuter or not to neuter - and its gone into everything remotely relating to neutering.  Its making for a great debate though so damn you guys for affecting my uni work! :p ;)

Kept within the confines of the house, short of a entire male dog forcing its way indoors surely that is zero possibility?

Of course it is about the owners, not the dogs - sorry peewee but you've lost me, what exactly are you trying to achieve here   Never in a million years are you ever going to get a fully responsible 100% dog owning public.  And I would dispute that responsible dog owners are ever 100% perfect :p

"Kept within the confines of the house, short of a entire male dog forcing its way indoors surely that is zero possibility?"

In another post I stated that why I believe it to not be 100% possible - its about the fact that this topic has also become about in-season bitches scents and the fact that it can 'torment' an entire male so if you read it you'll see where I'm coming from :)

"Of course it is about the owners, not the dogs - sorry peewee but you've lost me, what exactly are you trying to achieve here"

I'm not trying to 'achieve' anything - I'm having a debate just like the rest of you putting my opinions etc forward like everybody else :)

"Never in a million years are you ever going to get a fully responsible 100% dog owning public."

I know - again I've said the same in another post :)

"And I would dispute that responsible dog owners are ever 100% perfect"

I was being a bit sarcastic there cos nobody is 100% perfect at anything ;)

"I have once taken my dogs elsewhere to walk once I found out that an inseason bitch was being walked on my usual walk, but only after having this bitch run up to my dog with the owner shouting "is you dog entire, keep it away from my bitch cos she's in season""

That bitch should have been on a lead def :rolleyes:

"there are plenty of areas (more so in a suburban area), where you could walk your bitch on lead without coming across off lead dogs."

I don't agree with that.  IME Suburban streets and 'fields' are teaming with dog walkers some who keep them on short leads, some on extender leads and others to potter along off lead.

but if they are on lead then there should not be a problem, surely....

"but if they are on lead then there should not be a problem, surely...."

What the bitch?

I'll give you an example of something that could happen - Joe Bloggs is walking his in-season bitch around his local streets at 9:15pm on a lead.  Jill Bloggs is walking her entire male around the same streets on an extender lead.  Jeff Bloggs is walking his entire male around the same streets off lead.  Joe Bloggs see's Jeff Bloggs coming along same side of a street and crosses over being the responsible owner that he is.  Joe turns a corner and meets Jill Bloggs' dog (15ft in front of owner due to extender lead).  Jill's on-lead dog mounts Joe's on-lead female, Jill goes over to get her dog off Joe's while Joe is trying to get his bitch away and the dogs are parted.  So in your opinion who's fault is that?

Whoever has their dog on an extender lead by a road is a fool, for starters, whether or not it's a dog or bitch, in season or not.

The road may be 'quiet', it may be a cul-de-sac, there may be an expanse of grass next to the path.......

Just for the record our extender lead is kept solely for use when 20ft+ away from a road in any direction

No dog should be walked off lead on a street, it is illegal for a start, and highly irresponsible, as is allowing a dog to walk 15ft in front of the owner.  It matters not whether they are entire dogs / in season or not...  I don't really see the argument.

But it does happen!

Here's another scenario for you. :)

A woman puts on fishnet stockings, a short tight skirt, high heels, low-cut top and loads of make-up. She then goes and stands on a street-corner in Soho. Who's responsible if she gets 'chatted up' against her will?

"A woman puts on fishnet stockings, a short tight skirt, high heels, low-cut top and loads of make-up. She then goes and stands on a street-corner in Soho."

What you choose to do on a Saturday night is up to you JG ;) hehe

Be fair - if I were talking about myself I'd include a bag of titbits for the bloke's Guide Dog! :rolleyes: :D

Ah, who needs to watch "Desperate Housewives" when there is CD!! :D

lol < I hate that 'term' but its easier to type than hahahahahaha ;)

When my bitch was entire I kept her in for the duration of her season.  This was not courtesy for other owners or considertion to entire dogs but selfish reasons on my part.  I did not want the unwanted attention from dogs and I did not want my dog scenting a path home and most of all I didn't want puppies.  I waited until she was nearly 2 until she was spayed (they are slow to mature breed). Keeping her in for the duration of her season didn't kill her, she got lots of training in the confines of our house and garden.

If I had taken her out she would have been kept on a lead and in actual fact for my dog that would have been more cruel than keeping her at home as most of her walk is spent free running.

"When my bitch was entire I kept her in for the duration of her season.  This was not courtesy for other owners or considertion to entire dogs but selfish reasons on my part.  I did not want the unwanted attention from dogs and I did not want my dog scenting a path home and most of all I didn't want puppies.  I waited until she was nearly 2 until she was spayed (they are slow to mature breed). Keeping her in for the duration of her season didn't kill her, she got lots of training in the confines of our house and garden."

While I agree that in some instances it can be 'for the best' what about people in a small house with a small yard/a small house with no yard/a flat - mental stimulation alone would not suffice for approx. 4wks twice a year.

You do what you need to do to keep maximum control of the situation.  I have an energetic breed and I expect for many owners of this breed they would feel that confinement would be unacceptable. I actually don't have a huge garden and to have kept her confined every season for her life would be unacceptable to me which is why she was spayed. 

It was hard keeping her home but that was the price I felt I had to pay to keep her and me pestered free.  I actually find that mental stimulation is more tiring for her than any amount of physical exercise.

That would be a lot of muscle tone to build up again during gestation if you planned a litter though wouldn't it.

>That would be a lot of muscle tone to build up again during gestation if you planned a litter though wouldn't it

Yes, all things have to be considered and certainly this wouldn't suit everyone and not everyone is as paranoid as I was about my dog getting 'caught'.  Also I have to admit that my dog only had two seasons and not one every 6 months like many other dogs.

Are they 'teeming' with dog walkers 24/7, or are there 'slack' times?

We agree, then, that Peewee and Isabel believe all males should be castrated because someone may just pass by with their in season bitch.

"We agree, then, that Peewee and Isabel believe all males should be castrated because someone may just pass by with their in season bitch."

:rolleyes:  I have not said that so please don't make blanket statements about me when I have said many times to the contrary! :rolleyes:

Then what are you saying? We agree it is unreasonable to keep all dogs on leads at all times and that in season bitches should not be off lead. To argue that the owner of an entire dog should make sure he gets no-where near an entire bitch is fine - but how

"Then what are you saying? We agree it is unreasonable to keep all dogs on leads at all times and that in season bitches should not be off lead. To argue that the owner of an entire dog should make sure he gets no-where near an entire bitch is fine - but how"

Its all fair and good having this 'argument' with responsible dog owners who take every precaution with their dogs.  But the point I'm trying to make is that entire dogs/bitches are not owned solely by responsible people and it is them who should have there dog(s) neutered.  No I don't believe that neutering should be compulsory cos a) how would it be inforced and b) how would the term responsible ownership be determined but it should be encouraged.  This is why I don't understand some people on here saying that they don't agree with rescue centres neutering all the dogs that come through their doors - they are trying to prevent the 'irresponsible' owners having 'problems' with their dog/bitch becuase it is left entire.

Then your argument is against bad owners. My opinion is that bad owners shouldnt have dogs. A bad owner is unlikely to have his dog castrated, so perhaps the emphasis should be on promoting good ownership rather than castration?

"Then your argument is against bad owners. My opinion is that bad owners shouldnt have dogs."

My 'argument' is about neutering and yes it does have a lot to do with the owners.  However, bad owners can be classed as less knowledgable/experienced owners so should they not be allowed to have dogs too?

Hi Pewee

been sitting on my hands for quite a bit on this one but it's got the better of me :D

I'm afraid the defence/argument about some owners being less knowledgeable and/or responsible than many involved in this debate holds no water with me - I'd be willing to bet most of these so called "inexperienced" owners know enough about basic biology so IMO ignorance is a moot point.

I've owned entire males and entire bitches at the same time for over 16 years and never had an accidental mating nor even a near miss with either my resident pack nor any of a multitude of local dogs.  Keeping entire animals and preventing unwanted matings is about common sense and good manners - nothing more, nothing less.  It doesn't take a degree in animal husbandry to work out that an in season bitch will be attractive to males, entire or not, and good old Mother Nnature ensures that bitches in their prime will do all they can to attract the opposite sex too.  

IMO it is solely the responsibility of those owning entire bitches to ensure that their girls are protected from a misalliance - whether that means confied to home turf or pavement pounding in all weathers at 4-00 am then so be it :)  

regards, Teri

It's like I said to my daughter when we were walking past a 16 year old neighbour who was holding her new baby and shouting at her boyfriend who was walking away from her, they are both responsible for producing the baby but look who is left holding. If you don't want to be left holding the puppies then don't get in a sitution where a "situation" might occur.

ooo, sorry about the long sentence :D

I have always said to my girl in this regard, don't make a mistake you have to live with, as the girl always winds up living with it, whereas the boy gets off at worst by paying financially but to all intents and purposes reamins a free agent, which a single Mum never is.

First of all I'm by no means condoning the 'irresponsible' dog owners behaviour whether it be through naivety/ignorance or the fact that they couldn't care less.  What I am trying to say is that these 'sort' of owners are out there in abundance.

"IMO it is solely the responsibility of those owning entire bitches to ensure that their girls are protected from a misalliance"

With regards pregnancy then yes the entire bitches owners have a great deal of responsibility to ensure that their bitch is not mated by an entire male but this isn't a debate just about that.  Therefore, to blanketly say that it is "solely the responsibility of those owning entire bitches" when the entire male owners should be ensuring their dog stays away from entire bitches via adequate control and training is what I simply don't understand nor agree with.

I'm afraid if you live in the 'real world' you accept that it isn't perfect, and make sure you control your own little bit of it.

>when the entire male owners should be ensuring their dog stays away from entire bitches via adequate control and training is what I simply don't understand nor agree with.

Nor can I understand your above comment :)  If entire bitches are correctly kept, no entire males with the possible exception of those which share the same home, will be in contact with them.

As far as I'm concerned there is NO good reason to have an entire in season bitch in the vicinity of free running dogs nor in close contact with those being kept on lead.  

"Nor can I understand your above comment"

Ok, the above comment was supposed to mean this - why are other posters (in this topic and previous topics) seemingly giving the impression that entire bitch owners are the only people on the face of this earth responsible if an entire male gets at their bitch (note no mention of pregnancy)?  Why isn't their some if not equal responsibility being placed on the entire dog owner?

"If entire bitches are correctly kept, no entire males with the possible exception of those which share the same home, will be in contact with them."

Kept correctly meaning what exactly and by whom?  I'm talking about the "less knowledgable" Joe Bloggs of a dog owner here.

"As far as I'm concerned there is NO good reason to have an entire in season bitch in the vicinity of free running dogs nor in close contact with those being kept on lead."

So, in some circumstances which I have mentioned in previous posts does it mean that you believe that the in-season bitch should be holed up in a small flat/small house with no yard/garden and little in the way of mental stimulation from its owners for a month twice a year then?  That to me would merit a call to the RSPCA to report the owners for not adequately caring for the bitch...

>little in the way of mental stimulation from its owners

Why do you assume that a person keeping a bitch secure during her season won't give mental stimulation?

"Why do you assume that a person keeping a bitch secure during her season won't give mental stimulation?"

I don't as far as the 'responsible' dog owners but I do assume that some of the 'irresponsible' and 'less knowledgable' dog owners won't.