Surely they'd be the ones who wouldn't keep their bitch secure anyway? The ones who'd be walking her as normal?

"Surely they'd be the ones who wouldn't keep their bitch secure anyway?"

Not necessarily.  Take my old next door neighbours for example.  They had an entire female who never got walked - it was 'allowed' in the (secure) back garden several times througout the day though.  They didn't have toys for it and the only 'interaction' they had with it was stroking it (which it did get a lot of).  Don't get me wrong it was a much loved family pet but they were obviously totally ignorant to the dogs needs and it became what can only be described as a shadow of what it should have been personality wise cos it basically didn't have one :rolleyes:

This has nothing to do with whether a dog or bitch are entire or not

"If this post has no replies, it will be deleted completely. If this post has replies, only the text will be changed to '[deleted]' to preserve the thread integrity."

I was answering a question posed to me by Jeangenie :)

Edit to say - yes it does!  Its about the bitch owners who keep their bitches holed up for the duration of their seasons and how not all of them will give the dog adequate mental stimulation equalling, IMO, cruelty.

Edit to say again - keeping them 'holed up' so that they don't happen to meet an entire male or 'torment' any entire males who may get a sniff of their season.

You've completely lost me - what's that got to do with her security when in season? How did their treatment of her change when she was in season?

It is the responsibility of an entire dog owner to keep their dog under control but with the best will in the world how are they supposed to know there is an entire bitch inthe vicinity?  How is the entire dog owner supposed to prevent their dog acting on his instincts?  I didn't want to keep my bitch under wraps whilst she was in season (BTW I resent being labelled cruel for doing so) but there are plenty of off lead dogs where I walk, even when I go off track into the countryside I come across dog walkers (some of those also trying to avoid other dogs).  Am I cruel to ensure no puppies or cruel to run the high risk of pregnancy and all the dangers that it involves?

Hi again Peewee,

it's been pointed out to you repeatedly throughout the course of this thread how to go about ensuring in season bitches are not at risk from or nuisance to entire males.  I've made it very clear (as the owner of two such bitches right now) that I believe it is the sole responsibility of the owner of an entire bitch to avoid every situation where (with minimal logic required) it can be assumed that encountering entire males is likely.  My girls are confined throughout week two to week four of their seasons except for very late night /early morning road walks.  I'd defy any RSPCA inspector or gung-ho neighbour/ood citizen to challenge they are in peak mental and physical condition all year round :)

regards, Teri

And this in a very high energy breed that does the wall of death (in my experience) if not excersised, but it is what is needed to ensure they are not in contact with males.

>IMO it is solely the responsibility of those owning entire bitches

At least you have had the bottle to come right out and say it :) Nobody else in this three page thread had.  Needless to say I disagree ;)

I thought I had, but if not I agree entirely with Teri on this one, and I live on a City housing estate.

>We agree, then, that Peewee and Isabel believe all males should be castrated because someone may just pass by with their in season bitch.

What an incredibly facile comment :o

"Are they 'teeming' with dog walkers 24/7, or are there 'slack' times?"

Dog owners walk their dogs at different times of the day depending on a) their lifestyle b) freedom of choice c) whether or not something has 'upset' the routine that day and they're doing it earlier/later than usual......... :rolleyes:

IME early risers/starters at work walk their dogs early morning.  Later risers/starters at work walk them slightly later.  House wives/husbands may walk them after the nursery/school drop off, after their morning cleaning/shop, after lunch, early afternoon, when going to collect the kids, before tea, after tea, early evening, after the kids have gone to bed or late evening.  Workers may walk their dogs at lunch time before tea, after tea, early evening, after the kids have gone to bed or late evening.  However, these 'times' are not set in stone and are different for everyone e.g. some people may have lunch at 12pm, some not til 3pm.  So, in answer to your question unless I conduct a survey and start going out at varying hours of the dead of night I am unable to categorically state that 3:01am or 10:33pm is a 'slack time' ;)

>So, in answer to your question unless I conduct a survey and start going out at varying hours of the dead of night I am unable to categorically state that 3:01am or 10:33pm is a 'slack time'

Perhaps that'd be a good idea. :) Even when I lived in central London there were plenty of times when the streets weren't busy.

Aaah but to do one now would mean that in 1week/1month/1years time the data would be inacurate due to people moving/dogs dying/dogs being rehomed/new dogs arriving ;)

So?

"I would never suggest keeping any dog holed up in a house for the duration of their season"

We agree on that then :)

"you could walk your bitch on lead without coming across off lead dogs..... Surely that responsibility comes with owning entire bitches."

But in a general suburban area where would you exercise an entire bitch if you have the attitude of "don't walk it anywhere where there may be an off lead dog"?  In my town/surrounding towns/places we've holidayed around Great Britain we have always met atleast one off lead dogs whilst out on a walk be it in a park area, by the river, on a beach or the street.  And to add something that hasn't been said before in general how are owners expected to know whether the other owners dog is a male or female, entire or neutered cos the many dog walkers I've come into contact with over the years don't shout "mines and entire male whats yours?" or "don't worry mine's been spayed" :rolleyes:

>in a general suburban area where would you exercise an entire bitch if you have the attitude of "don't walk it anywhere where there may be an off lead dog"?

I used to find the streets quiet at 5 in the morning. ;)

I took my little foster bitch (never been lead trained at about 18 months old) out at 11.30pm Easter Sunday as the very busy road I live on was dead by then. 

I think we encountered one car on oru 45 minute walk.

Once she is happy walking at quiet times I will start to take her out at busier times.

When I had my first dog there were still soemetimes loose dogs on the Estate and I had to take mien out with the pushchair.  She was a BSD, but I kept her home, and onoy walked her very late in the first week of her season.

"In my town/surrounding towns/places we've holidayed around Great Britain we have always met atleast one off lead dogs whilst out on a walk be it in a park area, by the river, on a beach or the street."

The only place I would walk an in season bitchnis on the street.

Dogs ahve no business being off lead in the street, so there the owner of the dog is being irresponsible.

Then complain to the council and ensure the Dog warden does his job to ensure there aren't dogs allowed loose to roam the streets causing accidents and nuisance.

There is nothing cruel about keeping an entire in season bitch at home for the duration of her season, and is the prefered course for many owners.

I own in partnership a dog that spent 6 months in a kennel and run 20 feet by 8 feet and he was alone without company for most of the time, yet he kept perfectly fit and grew well, probably in better muscular shape than many puppies his age.

So I can't see it beign such a hardship for a bitch to be at home with company, games and toys at a time when most are feelign a bit mopey and tending to take to their beds more anyway.

The only time the bitches get a bit much is when they are ready for mating, and they are this way whether excersised or not.

"Then complain to the council and ensure the Dog warden does his job to ensure there aren't dogs allowed loose to roam the streets causing accidents and nuisance."

In the post about people letting their dogs out to do their business unattended or the one where I said about owners walking their dogs off lead in a residential area I didn't say that they were being "allowed loose to roam the streets causing accidents and nuisance"

"I own in partnership a dog that spent 6 months in a kennel and run 20 feet by 8 feet and he was alone without company for most of the time, yet he kept perfectly fit and grew well, probably in better muscular shape than many puppies his age."

The dog had a large enclosed run to exercise in - not a luxury to us all!

"So I can't see it beign such a hardship for a bitch to be at home with company, games and toys"

What about the bitches that don't get that?

If the dogs are off the lead on the street, whether to "do their business" or being excersised by their owner they can cause accidents or nuisance and should be reported to the dog warden.

"If the dogs are off the lead on the street, whether to "do their business" or being excersised by their owner they can cause accidents or nuisance and should be reported to the dog warden."

When someone in the next street from us were having an extension built they had no wall at all around their land.  They allowed the dogs out of the house to do their business.  The 2 dogs even tried to follow me home when I was walking our spayed girl :rolleyes:  I also noticed that there was dog poo in their neighbours garden which those 2 dogs had more than likely done.  The neighbour came home whilst I was trying to get the 2 dogs to 'go home' and we both rolled our eyes at each other.  If I'd had my wits about me then yes I would have reported them as too would the neighbour.  Now they've got a wall and the dogs are in the 'back garden' so I haven't seen them for a while but I will endeavour to get 'photographic evidence' on my camera phone if the poor things are allowed out unattended again

round and round and round it goes, where it stops nobody knows............ oh yeah thats right it ends up being locked ;) haha

That would be a shame, because then the whole thing's a pointless waste of time. Surely that's not what anyone wants.

It was a tongue in cheek comment cos it seems, from my time here on the boards atleast, that any topic that ends up in a 'debate' gets locked :rolleyes:

Only when it turns childish and people start sticking tongues out ... ;) When it stays calmly and logically on topic, it stays. :)

"Only when it turns childish and people start sticking tongues out ... ;-) When it stays calmly and logically on topic, it stays. :-)"

I'm not doing it at the computer screen haha  Online you have limited ways of letting people know how the text is intended.  In the 'real world' you go by facial expressions/body language/tone of voice - text is a very easy thing to misinterpret the meaning of.  A sticky out tongue to me says meant but not dictated if you know what I mean.  Its a way of making the OP aware that there is no anger/frustation etc meant.  On, and I thought I was being "calm and logical" :)

When I had entire bitches they were never left unattended nor did they leave my premises(unless it was to be mated or to the vets)whilst in season & I had entire dogs at the same time & never had and unwanted pregnancy or mating

However I do wish the "townies" & "incomers"would refrain from walking their in season bitches past were I live-not because my entire dogs get upset/out of control etc, but because the local"stud"labradors follow their scent & p*ss & mark in my drive & walls & verge outside(which the bitch owners let their bitches p*ss on & it's not public land as it's fenced(low) off). I often nearly run the labs down as they track the bitches & appear from nowhere Add to this the locals who walk their male dogs on lead & who then also p*ss on my plants where the labs & bitches have been & whose dogs(that are mainly castrated)also track the bitches trail of pees & scent

Lots of in season bitches pee more when they are in season to announce to available males of their condition, which can make walking a dog entire or otherwise a nightmare once the dog gets a whiff.

Sorry IMHO in season bitches should be confined to the home

There is no way I will castrate my dogs unless it is for medical reasons not because some silly bitch owner wants to keep their bitch entire & enjoy their walks together 52 weeks of the year 

Right, bitch owners lead walking on streets, as many advocate here, male dogs off lead getting in the way of traffic and peeing everywhere but bitch owners are the ones responsible for this.  I guess everyone has a different take on things

> male dogs off lead getting in the way of traffic and peeing everywhere

  Why should male dogs be off lead getting in the way of traffic?

Why indeed?  Read MM's post :)

"Right, bitch owners lead walking on streets, as many advocate here, male dogs off lead getting in the way of traffic and peeing everywhere but bitch owners are the ones responsible for this.  I guess everyone has a different take on things cool"

If that were the general attitude Isabel then every entire male dog owner would lay total blame on all the entire bitch owners for their dogs general lack of obedience especially when off lead/periodic deafness/stopping and peeing on every lamppost/attempting to scale the garden fence/barking/general 'bad behaviour'/etc and the entire bitch owners, despite having them holed up for 4 weeks twice a year, would say "Yes we take full responsibility and are sorry if we've inconvenienced you."  Why are we the only one's who see that this isn't justifiable?

Ive only read the first 2 pages of this thread,i will need to set aside a few hours and fill the teapot up to read the rest of thread :o

Here is my opinion on entire males/females,please dont shoot me down for this,its just my opinion and is what I would do :)

* If your not going to breed then spay/neuter your *pet*,whats the point of putting them through the frustration of season after season and the risk of pyometra without breeding them.When they are in season they turn into true *animals* :p and will want to do anything to mate,unless ofcourse they are stifled from doing so.

* Whats the point of having an entire male dog if you arent going to breed him? The majority of entire males i have met pee on everything,inside and out,dont particularly get on with other males, entire or not and practically live to breed and mark,defend their territory.If theres an inseason bitch in the area or they happen to meet one while out on a walk the frustration these dogs must feel must be unbearable.Ofcourse i have met a small amount who do NOT behave this way,but the vast majority do,and yes i know the ones i met are miniscule to population of the country,incase anyone was thinking of bringing that up ;)

* If you have an in season bitch there is absolutely no reason to not walk her within this period.Afterall it is not her fault she in season,it is the owners decision to leave her that way,why should she be punished by being confined to the house for weeks at a time because the owner chooses not to spay her? Ontop of being in season and not being able to mate she also becomes imprisoned for 2-3 weeks at a time,this would just quadruple her frustration and is cruel in my honest opinion :(

*If an owner chooses to leave their male or female intact then they must be prepared to face the consequences when out on walks,the dog must remain the owners first priority whether in season or not,or the chance of an in season female coming along,if a male.Shutting them up is taking the easy way out IMHO,as is avoiding in season females or getting annoyed when their male dog runs into one,if they were spayed/neutered there would be no problems.

I have no intentions of breeding my dogs therefore they are all spayed and neutered.I wouldnt have the time nor patience to go through the crap of seasons,entire dogs trying to get to females in seasons,female dogs trying to get to males,having to put my dogs on lead if there is a bitch in season around or having to put my female on lead if she is in season etc etc

If an owner *chooses* to leave their male/female entire then their lifestyle should not change when nature takes over :)

* Whats the point of having an entire male dog if you arent going to breed him? The majority of entire males i have met pee on everything,inside and out,dont particularly get on with other males, entire or not and practically live to breed and mark,defend their territory.

You might want to show him, and you might not want to have his coat possibly change (depending on breed etc), you might not want to risk that other male dogs believe HE is an in season bitch, you might not want to make a nervous male far, far worse, you might not want to put him through surgery for no actual reason......

And all the aspects of entire dogs you mention can happen in neutered dogs too. All my neutered dogs (I have 3 neutered ones and 3 entire) mark when out for walks and at home in the garden, all defend their territory, one of them most certainly don't like other male dogs, and all of them have a big interest in in season bitches. One was neutered at 4 months, one at 8 months, one at 3 years and none of it made any difference to any of this behaviour -the one done at 4 months just took a bit longer to start marking etc, he was almost 3 years old when he started. He will also mate and tie.

you might not want to risk that other male dogs believe HE is an in season bitch,

Champdogs is the only place i have read about this on.I have read ALOT of books and belong to alot of dog sites and have never heard of this before Not saying its not true,but it doesnt seem to be very common??

Also,can i ask why champdogs seems to be so anti spay/neuter? I know it is mostly dedicated to show people and champ - dogs,but i have never come across a place that is so against spaying and neutering,most other places are the complete opposite and advocate getting pets who are not going to be bred from or shown neutered.