"The word you wanted to use instead of responsible irresponsible."

Aaah I see - yeah thats a good one thanks :)

>So you are saying that dogs should be castrated as a matter of course.

You seem determined to suggest I am saying that :)  It is entirely up to the owner how they want to tackle (excuse pun ;)) their responsibilities.

>Whilst asking about responsibilities

I may be asking but nobody is answering :)

>Should they tell everyone to castrate?

No, why should they, just to tell them about the responsibilities of owning an entire dog should leave them capable of decided what is best for themselves.

"But the fact a dog is entire or castrated does not make any difference if it is an unsuitable owner who cant control him?"

I'm not disputing that but am saying that if a dog is owned by an 'unsuitable owner' (which lets face it there's a good few of 'em!) then by neutering the animal atleast it can't impregnate/be pregnated.

"The responsibility would be the same as the owner who was not able to control their dog leaving a park to chase us on the road opposite our house.  If she had been in her garden he may well have smelt her.  Along the tow path dogs may pass the homes of people over the road with bitches in season on their property."

Exactly!

I also know of a lot of dogs in general around our area which are allowed to go out of the front door, do their 'business' then come back in - all of which is unsupervised :rolleyes:  There are also many people that allow their dogs in the 'front garden' unsupervised with walls/fencing/gates which even though are a good size wouldn't stop the dog from jumping over if they so chose to do so.  So, how do these owners know that even in the space of a couple of minutes the dog(s) haven't been off on a wander around the adjoining streets following scents either in the wind or on the footpath?  We live in what would be classed as a 'good area' by the way so I dread to think what its like elsewhere! :rolleyes:

There is a big difference between a poorly trained dog and a trained dog having an inseason bitch flaunting herself in front of him.
Of course it is the responsibility of all dog owners to keep their dogs under control at all times, and it should make no difference whether entire or not.  I do not know your situation, so would not comment, but around here, the tow path is a favourite for many dog walkers - and generally they will be off lead.
Surely all dog/bitch owners have a responsibility for not only the control and safety of their own dog, but also the responsibility for ensuring their dog is not a nuisance to other dogs or dog owners.  An in season bitch being allowed to walk in an area commonly used by other dogs can indeed be a nuisance ;)

"There is a big difference between a poorly trained dog and a trained dog having an inseason bitch flaunting herself in front of him."

Bitches in their enclosed gardens aren't "flauting themselves" - I'm bringing this up cos it was suggested in another topic that entire bitches shouldn't even be allowed into their owners fully enclosed gardens :rolleyes:  Scents are carried on the wind which may of course attract an entire males attention to the bitch.  Scents are on footpaths/grass from in-season bitches who have been walked there many hours before - this too may attract the attention of entire dogs.  In order to 99.9% stop an in-season bitch from possibly attracting the attention of an entire male then surely the only solution is to hole if up for 2 months of the year!?  Even then everytime the front/back doors/windows were opened the scent would be whisked away 'flaunting' the bitches season.  Not to mention the fact that to hole the bitch up is just plain cruel!  So, what the devil is an entire bitch owner to do simply to try and stop any entire dog from possibly being 'tormented'? :rolleyes:

>I'm bringing this up cos it was suggested in another topic that entire bitches shouldn't even be allowed into their owners fully enclosed gardens

Not unattended, no. Bitches can be very capable jumpers when they have the urge to mate.

>So, what the devil is an entire bitch owner to do simply to try and stop any entire dog from possibly being 'tormented'?

Use common sense and have the good manners to walk the bitch at unsociable hours and/or quiet places. It's not difficult - I did it successfully for 30 years and never once had unwanted visitors or accidental matings.

But you are forgetting, JG its only the dog which becomes rampant at these times!

Silly me! :rolleyes: ;)

"But you are forgetting, JG its only the dog which becomes rampant at these times!"

I've never stated that :rolleyes:  I myself have been saying that the in-season bitch should be controlled by its owners whether by means of a secure garden or leash so please don't suggest that I am naive/thick

Peewee, it was not my intention to suggest anything of the sort. However you must see that bitches can only be protected by constant supervision when they are in season and it is unreasonable to suggest that owners of entire dogs should not only protect their own dog, but also the bitches of silly owners. A bitch is just as likely to seek out a dog as vica versa. Castration can, in some cases cause a lot of problems and is not a cure for owners who let their dogs onto the street without a lead.

"it is unreasonable to suggest that owners of entire dogs should not only protect their own dog, but also the bitches of silly owners."

The thing is there are equally if not more 'silly owners' of entire male dogs.  In an ideal world there would be no 'silly owners' of either dogs or bitches but this is the real world and thats what I keep referring to ;)

"Not unattended, no. Bitches can be very capable jumpers when they have the urge to mate."

The other topic was about an entire male getting into the garden not the in-season bitch getting out so thats what I was reffering to

"Use common sense and have the good manners to walk the bitch at unsociable hours and/or quiet places. It's not difficult - I did it successfully for 30 years and never once had unwanted visitors or accidental matings."

See another post I made ;)

Many people aren't aware of what constitutes a 'safely enclosed' garden; even tiny dogs can scale a 3-foot fence. Six-foot panels should be considered a minimum for 'safely enclosed'. :)

>See another post I made

Ditto. :D

I think that if the owner of a bitch in season has it safely enclosed in their own back garden, they are doing all they possibly can and if entire dogs are still tormented by escaping scents, that is unavoidable and I'm sure any reasonable entire male dog owner would accept that.  I've had entire bitches and dogs and don't think it is unreasonable to keep bitches on lead and to try to exercise them at quiet times/isolated areas during their seasons.  If this isn't practical, then there are other ways of keeping in season bitches exercised at home during that short period, ie games, training etc.  Don't particularly need a large garden for that.

Our canal path is generally not busy, mid week anyway.  As I said I am not defending owners of bitches that are not making any effort themselves merely stating that with an acceptance from entire dog owners that taking some of the responisility as well  lives could be a lot easier for everybody.  What is becoming increasingly obvious from the posts is that dog owners accept no responsibility in this area and do not feel they should be inconvenienced when out and about at all.  There's nothing more I can really say we are going round and round and ah well, it's taken a millenium and we still don't really have full participation in these responsibilities from the human male do we? :)

>What is becoming increasingly obvious from the posts is that dog owners accept no responsibility in this area and do not feel they should be inconvenienced when out and about at all.

Not at all. As a current owner of entire dogs, I wouldn't take them where I knew there were likely to be in-season bitches! :D (Or infectious ones, or aggressive ones ... ;))

>I wouldn't take them where I knew there were likely to be in-season bitches!

How do you know where you are likely to meet them? Surely that's impossible or I am missing a little joke about that :) I would have said your responsibility would lie it merely securing your dog, if not already secured, when advised there was one approaching.

>How do you know where you are likely to meet them?

I would assume that their owners were intelligent enough to realise that it's unwise to take them where dogs are allowed offlead. After all, I knew that (and in London would only walk my bitch in the park where dogs had to be kept on-lead, and at around dawn, when she was in season, not in the off-lead park), and I'm no genius.

I'm no genius either :) but it's a long way to a London Park from here ;)  We can only work with the terrain we have which for me is a couple of streets, open fields, beach or canal path.  I can and do, do early mornings, very early mornings but with so many working owners now, so do many others I find.  Evenings are more problematic especially winter as there is no lighting of course along the canal and that water's very cold!  The best time of day is actually about mid morning I find so that is what I tended to do in my efforts to minimise the chances of meeting someone else but I could not guarantee it so I remained grateful for their willingness and ability to cooperate and play their part.

My point was that, even in the middle of the city where there are more dogs per square mile than there are in the country, that it's perfectly possible to find safe places to walk an in-season bitch without being a nuisance to others - if I could do it, anyone can! In the countryside there's far more scope - and we don't have the option of the beach, with such a clear view of other people and dogs, and a surface that's washed clean twice a day, removing all scent. :)

Yes, a beach gives you a clear view but it also gives a heck of a lot of scope for the dog to dodge its owners :( in my experience open spaces are the worst places.  It would give my bitch a much better walk on her extended lead though so do you really think I would not be down there if it wasn't?
I'm finding defending my exercise regime a wee bit tedious now, I am not thick, I have lived here a long time, I know and understand the scope of all the possibilites locally and I'm sure I don't need to say that I would rather not have the encounters myself.

>in my experience open spaces are the worst places.

Then that's fair enough. When my bitches were in season I found the opposite - that open spaces gave me far more advanced warning of anyone approaching so I could take avoiding action. :)

"My point was that, even in the middle of the city where there are more dogs per square mile than there are in the country, that it's perfectly possible to find safe places to walk an in-season bitch without being a nuisance to others - if I could do it, anyone can! In the countryside there's far more scope - and we don't have the option of the beach, with such a clear view of other people and dogs, and a surface that's washed clean twice a day, removing all scent."

Eee what you Southerners like having the misconception that everyone outside of London lives in the countryside and has easy access to rolling rural hills and the beach ;)

My reply was to Isabel, who mentioned the beach. I wasn't aware that Cumbria was in the south, but there you go. Obviously my A-level geography was faulty.

"My reply was to Isabel, who mentioned the beach. I wasn't aware that Cumbria was in the south, but there you go. Obviously my A-level geography was faulty."

I was simply saying that what you said could be taken to mean what I 'interpreted' :)  Last time I checked Cumbria was ooop north ;)  I don't live there by the way - Cumbria that is   Does Isabel?

> Does Isabel?

Yes. She mentioned walking on the beach, so I commented about beaches. Somehow that was interpreted as being a 'Southerner' attitude. I have no idea why.

Well, aaaaactually my beach side property ;) is in North Lancashire.  The thought of an inseason bitch in Keswick doesn't bear thinking about , I don't think they even sell leads there :D

Now now Isabel LOL :P

"Yes. She mentioned walking on the beach, so I commented about beaches. Somehow that was interpreted as being a 'Southerner' attitude. I have no idea why."

I thought you said you walked your dogs in the city of London?  Sorry if I got you confused with another poster.  Incidentally I didn't mean what I said to be anything more than a tongue in cheek 'joke' so I'm sorry if it was taken the wrong way.  I have relatives from the South so no way do I have any "negativity" (for want of a better word) towards 'southeners' :)

Yes, I lived in London in the past, and walked my bitch there. Now I live further north, and use fields and lanes. From one extreme to the other, so my experiences are very varied ... :)

The point is that in season bitches should not be anywhere dogs are normally able to be let off lead, so it is entirely the bitch owners responsibility, and I speak as a bitch owner.

As an owner of an in season bitch you are in possesion of facts that no-one else will know, it is similar in my view to taking a sick animal out among others.

It is very inconsiderate of a bitch owner,for the sake of a little inconvenience a few weeks a year.

After all if a male dogs owner were to expect in season bitches anywhere theri dog is off lead it could potentially mean inconvenience and unfair restriction for their entire animal for 52 weeks a year not just the few weeks for each entire bitch owner.

>The point is that in season bitches should not be anywhere dogs are normally able to be let off lead, so it is entirely the bitch owners responsibility, and I speak as a bitch owner.

I am coming in very late to this debate, but have been following it closely......I wholeheartely agree with Brainless, and I speak as an owner of both entire bitches and entire dogs.....I see it as my responsibility to have the consideration for other dog owners....and when my girls are in season, they are walked where dogs are not normally able to be let off lead and certainly when most dogs are tucked up in bed for the night.... even though I am able to walk my dogs for miles without coming into contact with another dog or owner, the three farms surrounding me all have entire males....who all have free reign....but I know they are under lock and key at certain times...ie; late nights and early mornings, I choose to have entire bitches, therefore it is up to me to make the sacrifice....so ...regardless of our living/walking areas....the bitch owners should take full responsibility

On the other hand, if I am walking my entire dogs, I do not want to have to go up to every single dog owner and ask if the bitch is in season....thats simply ludicrous....(and probably too late!!)

I take great care to keep my dogs seperate from my girls in season at home, the last thing I need is an irresponsible bitch owner allowing an in season bitch, even on lead, to be walked at 'peak' times.....

People choose to have entire bitches, so surely the onus is on them to have consideration for the people who dont?

>People choose to have entire bitches, so surely the onus is on them to have consideration for the people who dont?

That was certainly my belief when I owned entire bitches. My choice, my responsibility.

Of course bitch owner must show consideration and do everything they can but I do not accept this idea that dog owner have no responsibility.  How can that work when even those of us that carefully pick and choose walking times and places, hope dogs are tucked up in their beds etc ;) can never guarantee it.  Nobody has ever had to walk up to me to ask if my bitch is in season, I hope that is not a twist on what I said :) On the occasions that I have met anyone I have called out to them and there has been no difficulty in securing the dog on a lead in the restricted confines of the path.  I think people are being critical about the way I have tackled achieving the least meetings and the best way of managing it when it does happen but we all have to make do with the terrain we have and just because what you have available works for you does not mean that is the way it must be or can be done everywhere I can assure you I am doing my bit in everyway I think possible :) If everyone does what they possibly can then it just takes co-operation from the other party.  As Peewee says we are going round and around :).  I may wish for more willnessness to take some responsibilty, from entire male owners but even if I achieved it on this board it ain't guaranteed out there, similarly you may wish to never meet in inseason bitch but even if you convinced me to keep mine in purdah they will still be out there I'm afraid :)

"The point is that in season bitches should not be anywhere dogs are normally able to be let off lead"

There's another misconception - yes there are places that dogs are 'normally' allowed off lead but some owners just let 'em off where the blazers they want :rolleyes:

Well they need reporting to the authorities and hit where it hurts in their pockets.

There are signs on every other lamp post aound here with a £200 (might be £500) fine for a dog off lead on the street, though fouling is up to £1000.

>I'm not suggesting they are kept on lead for 52 weeks just for the very rare occasion that they meet an in season bitch.

And how do they know when that is? It's not as if the bitch owner posts notices around the fields/ park/ lanes - at least, I've never seen any, and I certainly never did. If they meet, the damage has been done - it's avoidance of even a single meeting that's important.

I don't believe total avoidance is possible.  For those of you lucky enough to have a street network you are just facing the possibility of meeting the totally irresponsible offlead waleker but for those of us that don't, even picking your time of day with the very best care you are not going to be sure, you are always going to be dependent on the willingness of the dog owner to play their part.  Fortunately round here they do and damage has never been done :)

There may not be 'streets' with pavements, but there are certainly roads, often with verges. During F&M this was all we had to use, and managed okay, though it wasn't as much fun of course, for many weeks, much longer than a bitch's season.

Yes, if you were lucky you might have some roads suitable for walking safely and I expect, like me, they would grasp that option to minimise the risk of meetings.

We only got knocked down once (luckily only minor injuries to me and two dogs, although the car was written off), although we still have to leap into the hedges a few times each week. We need to walk up the lanes to get to the fields where the footpaths are, you see. :)

"I wouldn't walk my in season bitches anywhre dogs had a right or I had any expectations of dogs being off lead."

Around where we live, which incidently is a suburban area, dogs in general are let off lead everywhere and anywhere.  So, if I was to have the same attitude as you it would mean that an in season entire bitch owner wouldn't walk their dog at all! :rolleyes:  IMO its very cruel to keep an in-season bitch holed up in the house for the duration of their seasons twice a year - thats 2 whole months.  Bear in mind that a lot of dog owners do not have the luxury of good sized gardens or rural rolling fields where they could take their bitch without running the risk of meeting an entire dog :rolleyes:

So it's the entire males that have to stay on lead to allow you to walk your in season bitch for two months of the year - the problem is, it may just be two months for you, but if everyone had your attitude - it would be all year round for entire males.

I too live in a suburban area, with a lot of parkland and some wonderful offlead dog walking areas (which are also very busy).  To bring an in season bitch into these areas is IMO utterly selfish, although it happens frequently.  I would never suggest keeping any dog holed up in a house for the duration of their season (although some do), but there are plenty of areas (more so in a suburban area), where you could walk your bitch on lead without coming across off lead dogs.  Surely that responsibility comes with owning entire bitches.

"So it's the entire males that have to stay on lead to allow you to walk your in season bitch for two months of the year - the problem is, it may just be two months for you, but if everyone had your attitude - it would be all year round for entire males."

I haven't got an entire bitch

"I too live in a suburban area, with a lot of parkland and some wonderful offlead dog walking areas (which are also very busy).  To bring an in season bitch into these areas is IMO utterly selfish, although it happens frequently."

Selfish for the entire dog owners maybe but not selfish for the bitches owners.  You see this is the problem there is no-one to 'blame' its all about responsibility.  If the entire bitch owners have their bitch on a lead and under control then they are being responsible.  If the entire dog owners don't have their dogs on lead and under control then are they being irresponsible?  In this case I'd say that if its a busy dog walking area then yes however if it was a rural area where there weren't many dogs in general being walked then no...  It is a hard call I agree and I understand entire dog owners frustrations (we used to have an entire male but were obviously lucky cos he didn't give a stuff about bitches) but the dog owners should also try to understand the entire bitch owners frustrations too.  People don't keep their bitches entire to 'spite' the owners of entire dogs they do it through choice just as the entire dog owners choose to keep their dogs 'au naturale'. Therefore, IMO each should carry equal responsibility.

Having owned entire bitches and entire dogs (although nor at the same time!) I feel I can speak from experience. :) When my bitches were in season I wouldn't have dreamed of walking them at a time or place where I was likely to meet other dogs. To have them entire was my choice, so for those few weeks of the year it was my responsibility not to torment other people's dogs.

I'm not sure how equal responsibility can be expected.  A dog owner does not KNOW when an in season bitch may appear, and has no control over where it is walked.  I have once taken my dogs elsewhere to walk once I found out that an inseason bitch was being walked on my usual walk, but only after having this bitch run up to my dog with the owner shouting "is you dog entire, keep it away from my bitch cos she's in season" :rolleyes:

It is not just about responsibility it is also about courtesy for others.

>It is not just about responsibility it is also about courtesy for others.

Exactly.

"A dog owner does not KNOW when an in season bitch may appear, and has no control over where it is walked"

Nor does an entire bitches owner KNOW when an entire dog may appear, and has nor do they have control over where the dog is walked so its the same isn't it

The bitch owner knows that the bitch is in season ...