My Border collie will need to be neutered due to hereditary problems
My vet said they do it from 6 months?
people have mentioned it is too young as it may stunt his growth
Any advice welcomed

Not sure if it depends on the size or breed, but my vet told me a few days ago that my RR wouldn't be castrated until he was at least 12 months old.

Stunt his growth as in behaviour :-D not size!  This is quite true, it may keep him more puppy like, I would opt from 12 months up for castration.

would it be the same for a female

I have just taken my 9 week GR bitch puppy to the vet and they recommended if I wanted to go ahead with it, to have it done before her first season at around 6 months old as it slightly reduces cancer risks.

Spaying too close to a season can cause other problems; also the surgery can be riskier. Personally I'd wait till 3 months after the first season.

There's no way I'd spay a puppy that young.

Vets are INSANE with some of their recommendations these days, I can't believe it :(

Most vets nowadays do recommend speying after first season, mammary cancer is a risk but so is incontinance if done too early. It is unusual for your vet to advise before as most seem to be on the same wave length nowadays.

Thats what I thought :rolleyes:. 

Having read some of the previous threads on here I was set to have her done after her first season but before her 2nd (hopefully at around 12 months old) but the vet then threw me by recommending 6 months.  Rang another vet in the area who also said the same thing . 

I had also been told by quite a few people that she should have a litter before doing so.  I have to admit that I don't know anything about this kind so would have had a litter first if it hadn't have been for CDs.  Is this just a misconception about them having a litter first .  We got Misty purely for a family pet, waited over a year before we got her and I don't have any intentions of breeding her (I think IMO that it would be irresponsible as I haven't a clue!!)  After reading CDs posts for a while, we have decided we will get her done after her first season but I will discuss it again with the vet next week when we go and I'll mention the incontinance angle as well
:)

So glad that you found champdogs, at least you will get solid, truthful, advise here and all the facts not just some of them! From people who have been there done it and know what they are talking about. It is unbelievable the advice that is being given out kerrib. I'm glad that you are being sensible. :-)

My vet also recommended spaying before the first season, said there had been lots of research into it and it would be fine. I am not going to until after her first season or maybe her second, on recommendation of my breeder.

This would be the norm in terms of advice in North America. Castrate around 5 - 7 months, spay before they can even THINK of having their first season, 5 - 7 months too.

Makes my flesh crawl but they find it effective. However whether there are proven benefits or drawbacks to it one can't say yet as its only be around for a few years as regular thinking.

The advice tends to come from animal welfare organisations where they have the best interests at heart in a way because, true enough, if a bitch never HAS a 'first season' they can't ever had a accidental at a horribly young age.

For me, 12 months for a dog and 2 months after the first season for a bitch - personally.
Di

My Border Collie needs 2 teeth removed asap so i thought i would have him castrated at the same time whilst he was under anasetic
In 2 weeks he will be 6 months old
i was thinking about a vasectomy for him as it doesn't seem so severe but my vet says that it wont calm him as he'll still produce the hormones, however a castration will calm him and he wont get prostate cancer.
please look at my other posts if interested under health-canine teeth (if interested)
Thanks

>and he wont get prostate cancer.

You mean he won't get testicular cancer. Castrated dogs can still develop prostate cancer - in fact, although prostate tumours are slightly more common in entire dogs than castrated ones, there's evidence suggesting that the rate of malignancy is actually higher in castrated dogs.

It is nothing more than scaremongering, it's like saying all females should have their breasts removed so as not to get breast cancer. :rolleyes:

Absolutely. They feed on people's fears. :(

The main concern I have with such early castration is that the dogs personality is not formed and if he grows into a shy dog castration can cause problems - why is there always the assumption that the dog will need calming down? He could well mature into a lovely calm well adjusted dog anyway? Not all entire males are over-sexed lunatics, most is down to training. If training doesnt work then consider castration.

my original thread said "My Border collie will need to be neutered due to hereditary problems" He is very outgoing,obdient and already has his own great personality- i hear what your saying
but i think in my case the calming down may perhaps be a bonus?
Helen

If he has to be done due to health problems, there is no getting round it, but why say that calming down will be a bonus? How do you know that when he is fully mature he would need calming down?

My Border collie will need to be neutered due to hereditary problems What hereditary problems apart from retained testicles & testicular hernias(had a GSD with this)require castration ?

I'm always at a lost to understand why vets(& some celeb & non celeb behaviourizts)insist that castration will calm & cure problems. All you can guarantee with castration is the dog will not get testicular cancer(as he won't have any testicles) & after an unknown length of time he will be infertile(not straightaway BTW)

My BC is the carrier of a genetic defect(doesn't have the defect BTW) but why should I have to have him castrated ? None of my dogs have ever fathered an accidental litter in the 30+ years I have owned entire male dogs. With DNA tests available he could be safely used at stud on a clear bitch but your vets I presume would expect him to be castrated ! My last two BC's never sired a litter & lived long happy entire lives It never crossed my mind to castrate them(my vets didn't suggest it either)

There is an attitude in vets & lots of dog owners that castration replaces responsible dog ownership, in that the dogs will not produce unwanted litters if castrated so it doesn't matter that the dog gets the opportunity to mate a bitch if he's done he can mate bitches to his hearts content.

The age for neutering has been reduced as it is the Vets in the UK following american fashion for an easier operation & quicker recovery & hopefully keepiing the dog/bitch a perennial puppy behaviour many pet owners actually like

It seems that many vets are saying for people to have their dogs done at 6 months.  I've had two of my pet owners now being advised of this.  Actually their pups are absolutely gorgeous and a shame that their line will be lost but you can't have show people buying all your dogs!  one had it done before I knew of this and luckily now one of my latest puppy owners isn't going to have her girl done until after this age.

I know of one male that's been done in my breed and if anything his temperament with other males is now worse, it's definitely not better !

It would appear that in the US many breeders are now thinking that spay/castration is being done too early.

My boy was 6 months old when he came to live with us. We took him to the vets to be vaccinated (as he hadn't had them done) and was advised to wait for a few months until he settled in with us and then have him neutered. I accepted the advice of the vet and had him done at 8 months and luckily, there have been no ill effects. However, I have learned a lot since then and won't have any future males routinely castrated so young.

I was also advised by the same veterinary practice to have my bitch spayed at 6 months when I took her along for her vaccinations. I explained that I would be waiting until she had at least one season and my reasons for doing so and the vet was then fully supportive once she realised that I had done my research and was making an informed choice.

>It seems that many vets are saying for people to have their dogs done at 6 months

This 6 months old business seems to be an automatic response from so many vets at the moment. Sadly, many first time dog owners in particular think this should be taken as an instruction rather than advice. Thus I keep meeting people who assume that I'm either going to use my dog at stud or that I've wilfully chosen to own a canine sex bomb who spends his days humping anything that moves! Neither alternative being true!

Another thing that in the US they have found is by spaying/castrating early is that
if you have a dog that competes in agility etc that the dogs are far more likely to have cruciate problems.

Hmm

Well my three altered dogs, one bitch two boys, all completely NOT calmed down.

One of the boys will still go off in search of bitches, mount and tie wtih them if given the opportunity.

The boy done pre 6 months is a complete loony adn at 3 years old is still a puppy, despite being socialised with adult dogs and livign wtih adult dogs, he cannot BE an adult dog himself.

Em

...I have been quite taken aback since joining these boards at the attitude towards spaying and castration in pet dogs. There seems to be a strong feeling that goes against the flow of most walks of thought these days that spaying and castrating is NOT a good thing to do.

I find it very suprising. I can understand people who compete and breed wishing to not consider the option, but for pet owners it seems so strange to be advising them not to alter their dogs.

Whilst I compete and breed and stand dogs at stud, I also spay any bitch after her final litter and have two rescue boys who I immediately castrated upon arrival. I have for many years (although not currently) have helped very actively with rescue and DO see the 'whoops' litter results that pour in.
Its a very complex issue when one wishes to argue against it, because I do NOT have the health information to back up argumenets that have always stood strong that there ARE health benefits. I also do not have the behavioural data to confirm the commonly held belief that it CAN, over time, at LEAST turn MOST males heads from the girls and put their mind on the job in hand a little more than if they were entire. It stops idiots taking bitches in season out amongst the entire males of this world when the discharge goes clear - and they thinking 'thats her out of season then' when she is, infact now 'standing' and ready for mating. It stops happy active families having to shut their bitches away for the best part of a month, twice a year, when they bought her to go out and about and keep all involved fit and healthy.

It stops bitches having phantom pregnancies which can be heartbreaking to watch and dangerous for them tempermentally and physically to a certain extent. It stops 'whoops' litters of any sort, within the home, from the dog next door OR out on a walk (and god yes this does happen, not often but it does).

I am no fanatic. I am not here to 'save the world' and prevent every unwanted pregnancy, phantom preg. or female obsessed male being raised, Its all personal choice, but I find it very suprising on a board with posters who verbally support only ethical breeding and responsible dog ownership, that so many seem to, in any debate surrounding castration or spaying, talk as if one should feel guilty advising pet owners that there is very little negative and so much positive about doing thus.

Very suprising indeed.... and against all breed rescue, general rescue, vet, guide dog, assistance dog and general welfare advice.

Again, I am no fanatic, but do advise my pet puppy people to spay and castrate, problem or no problem, and not because I have no faith in the quality of my stock produced, but because it seems, on paper, to be utterly responsible to do so. But.... whilst all are entitled to their view, it seems amazing that people actively encouarge pet owners OUT of taking such measures, when rescue and so on try desperately to have people see the benefits of such action.

Di

Thanks for your comments
i was getting extremly frustrated trying to decide
castration or vasectomy
now at 6 months ar wait until at least 1 year old
do i do it at all? (if many females have been spayed- he wont get them pregnant anyway)
so much to think about and the vets advice is to castrate at 6 months!
made up my mind thanks
like you say i totally agree its a personal /experience choice
Helen

Sorry helen if I only confused you further! ;-) I was, admittedly being rather general rather than specific about your V verses C question. I have never used Vasectomys at all, hand on heart I wasn't sure they were avaliable in general practise - interesting to know they are.
Good luck with what you decide.
Di

What would you do if your carefully bred line ended because the boy you kept to use at stud fired blanks or didnt perform? There are nowhere near as many "latchkey" dogs as there used to be and I personally believe that most of the dogs that end up in shelters are not from unwanted litters rather from ill-advised or uncaring breeders. I have recently bred a litter with a different bloodline from anything else and although I know that one of the boys will be left entire and shown, I am very mindful that he may not be able to produce (sods law and all that). I do not want all my careful work to end up wasted because vets want to castrate everything for no good reason.

" What would you do if your carefully bred line ended because the boy you kept to use at stud fired blanks or didnt perform? "

I wouldn't dream of leaving myself in a situation with only one possible route to travel to continue my line. I usually have at least a Sire and son, or often a grandsire, sire and son. If I was in that, unlucky, position, I would look for pet homes i'd sold to that hadn't castrated. I only advise it, I don't stipulate it. More importantly, I did say I wasn't talking of breeders and competition homes but advice to pet owners.

" I personally believe that most of the dogs that end up in shelters are not from unwanted litters rather from ill-advised or uncaring breeders."

In general rescue shelters, agree. But not in breed rescue.

" I do not want all my careful work to end up wasted because vets want to castrate everything for no good reason."

That I can understand. Firstly I do not believe there is 'no good reason' for castration, although I find 6 months a ridiculous age to consider it. But, secondly, specifically to you and your reply, you are in a particular, slightly vunerable situation as a breeder with a programme ahead of you that you would not want intruded upon by bad luck and vets influence on your puppy homes. You are thinking of your breeding programme, not the general, man in the streets pet dog when you are angered or worried by castration.

Di

Unfortunately not many of us are in the position to be able to keep so many dogs. I have 4 - which with a high maintenance coated breed is as much as I can reasonably cope with. If I kept more, I feel the dogs would suffer. Yes, I am looking at it from my (and others) breeding programme - in a breed with a small gene pool we need access to as many good dogs as we can get, and not all the good ones (pedigree wise and/or conformation wise) are in the ring. I would love to have 3 stud dogs from my lines living with me, but the bitches I have bred and live with me come from outside studs, as is the case with most breeders in my breed.   

.... and mine. I very very rarely use my own dogs on my own bitches. There is always, almost always anyway, a better dog for her outside my kennel.

I can see where your worry would spring from in a small gene pool. Shutting doors is not the way forward, but as I say, I was making a pet dog comment and not a breeder forum type comment. For example on another thread a Westies owner was strongly steered away from castrating, another thread and another person advised against it by various posters with many back up posts of agreement. Both of those have generous gene pools and were bona fide pet dogs.

But I'm not knocking ANYONES personal choice for their own dogs, of course not, just questioned the logic of advising pet owners against doing what is, after all, in MOST large gene pools and certainly in crossbreeds, advisable.
Di

I bought a Border Collie for a family pet that was show bred
but unable to be shown due to an overshot mouth
He cannot stud any litters and i am being a responsible pet owner by having him neutered
seems that many people on the forum are experienced breeders, showers, etc but i'm not and never will be
Please understand my reasons that my carefully bred line? (apparently so careful with interbreeding- he has a overshot mouth) has to be discontinued as i never bought or kept him for a stud
Helen

Helen, regarding your collie's overshot mouth being a result of 'interbreeding' (you seem to misunderstand the term 'interbreeding' - that's used when a dog is a mixture of two different breeds; ie a crossbreed. ;) I'm sure your Border Collie's purebred! Do you mean 'inbreeding'?) bad mouths are very difficult to get out of a line once someone, maybe many generations back, allowed a bad-mouthed animal to be bred from - probably when using an 'outcross' (animal from an unrelated line) to get 'fresh blood' into the line. It's a fault, like poor tail carriage, upright shoulders or cow hocks; but is a very persistent gene. Your boy's parents, gandparents and great-grandparents may all have had perfect mouths - but the problem's been passed down the line.

Helen, your puppy has not got close inbreeding.  The nearest double up is a great grandparent and once more on a great, great grandparent.  Both were show champions, so certainly wouldn't have showed the fault.

With that many outcrosses it's almost impossible to trace the source of the problem.

I think the general consensus is against neutering of immature dogs and bitches as it does affect theri development.

Also if dogs are managed properly there is little need for neutering of males especially.

It can also be argued that those most likely to consider neutering in order to be responsible owners are not the ones that would allow their dogs and bitches to add to the problems neutering may help with.

" I think the general consensus is against neutering of immature dogs and bitches as it does affect theri development. "

This is my consensus too as mentioned above. I am speaking not of specifics about castration and spaying, age at, type of etc etc but just of the advice to pet owners against doing thus to their pet dogs. I, as explianed, personally consider a year for males and after first season for bitches myself.

" Also if dogs are managed properly there is little need for neutering of males especially."

Trouble is, and it links with your second comment below, it is not so much males being managed properly, as the previous poster said, there are few latchkey dogs now, however there are MANY bitch owners who have absolutely no idea about the course of a season. Absolutely not a clue. I would say this falls probably to the majority not the minority. Even those calling to mate their bitch often do not know the in's and out's of a seasons path other than it last about 4 weeks and at some point in it she is ready for mating. It is meeting bitches out in season which often TURN a dogs head in the first place and start a pattern of bad behaviour with a sexual link. Its often NOT the dogs owners fault at all.

If we meet a sexy smelling bitch out and about, you can guarantee it is my stud dogs and young entire males who will get all of a panting fluster and need towing away and NOT my two castrated boys.

" It can also be argued that those most likely to consider neutering in order to be responsible owners are not the ones that would allow their dogs and bitches to add to the problems neutering may help with. "

I absolutely wouldn't argue with that at all. But for every extra person who might of been a problem owner but can be responsible and castrate or spay their PET dogit is a tiny tiny positive. But of course this is merely opinion. There is no black and white, just shades of grey.

My original comment was not specific, just general, and simply that it seemed a shame that after all rescue and responsible ownership scheme's had done to get to the public and have them see the positives of altering their PET dogs at a reasonable age, that, come on here, and the advice, generally from breeder/exhibitors, was not to from many quarters. Maybe a case of applying the breeder/exhibitor values to pet dogs, which of course, are NOT in a breeding programme nor ever will or should be.

Di

"the general consensus is against neutering of immature dogs and bitches"
However 2 vets have advised me to have my dog neutered and they recommend at 6 months!
People may think differently but the so called proffessionalds are who many take and follow their advice
Helen

Hi

This is almost always a very emotive subject.  However, another way to look at this is that many many people take a bitch or a dog puppy with the premise of having it speyed as it is going to be a pet dog but then decide to mate it because there are always people ready to buy adorable little puppies and they believe there is money in it!  They don't take the time to really ensure that the bitch is suitable or, for that matter, the dog is suitable because they basically think that, say, 2 labradors will make labrador puppies and they will sell because they are very popular.  And they do sell.  Then you have the people who buy those pups having pups etc., etc., etc.,  Now, if I were a breeder and had taken time to ensure that I had good lines and I sold my puppy to somebody who, to all intents and purposes, appeared to meet my criteria for having a puppy and then I discovered they had mated it to jimmy up the road's dog, I would be absolutely furious.  Yes, I can put restrictions on the pedigree but, as we all know, most people don't really know a lot about breeding and a labrador looks like a labrador whether it has a KC registration or not.  Somebody even said to me once, it doesn't matter that the dog isn't registered its just a pet!!!   BUT IT DOES MATTER.  Until this indiscriminate breeding is stopped there are going to be millions of dogs born to people who don't deserve to be breeding them and who don't have the animal's real interests at stake.  Therefore, you can understand why vets and animal charities give out this type of information.  They are the people who are seeing the results of these poor puppies that are bred indiscriminantly and they don't want it to continue.  When I bought my Bracco pup, my vet would never have advised me to get her speyed because she is a rare breed and obviously the gene pool is small.  However, she was speyed because she had an overshot jaw and I believe that I did the right thing.  For me though it would have been difficult to have her mated because there are so few Braccos in the UK but think about the Weimeraner.  This beautiful breed suffered at the hands of people wanting to make a quick buck a few years ago because it was "trendy".  Now the breed has a bad name because there are so many weims around with bad temperaments etc., etc., through no fault of the excellent breeders who fight to save the breed from this type of reputation.  The same could be said of the staffie.  This dog is a victim of its own success.  There are lots and lots of staffie x, or unregistered staffies about.  The rescue centres are full of them and most of them are latchkey i.e. put out to fend for themselves!  We don't really know what is going on because we don't work in the areas of welfare, rescue etc., but there are far MORE pedigree (ie breeds) out there suffering than ever there used to be because it is now so very easy to get a pedigree (breed) dog and nobody is going to know if it is registered or not with the KC.  So, you see, if you completely stop everyone that mentions they are going to have their dog "altered" how can you tell if that dog, at a later date, will go on to be the father or mother of the poor unfortunately unregistered puppies that you see for sale in the paper.  All that the owner needs is the offer of a few pounds for a stud fee and there you go.

I do think that you can put the values of showing, working etc., onto the average run of the mill pet owner and perhaps that isn;t the way to protect your breed.  If you feel that you may have problems with lack of studs for your line then put a restriction on getting the dog castrated/speyed without your permission.  Then you have a say as to whether it happens or not.

I hope this makes sense.
Kind regards
Annie

In the main, there is no reason to castrate a dog at 6 months old. At this stage most are bonking, boistrous pains in the preverbial. This does not mean they will stay that way. The easiest way to continue a line is to keep bitches and breed from them, but the males need to be available too. I have no problem with owners spaying bitches I have bred, but do ask them to let them grow up first - after all, if I have kept a bitch, then I have the means to keep my lines, as is my choice. However, if a dog I have bred is castrated at 6 months old because he is showing natural sexual and jouvenile behaviour I am upset to think I have not got my message across to the owner. There is no need to castrate a dog so young because his true personality has not surfaced at that age. At maturity he may be quite a submissive dog, and if he has already been castrated that submissiveness could cause other problems. Why should dogs be castrated in case they meet an in season bitch whose owner is uneducated or just plain stupid? I leave the decision up to the owners of the dogs, but do make them aware that they have something special and not to throw it away without full consideration. Luckily all but 2 of my owners have talked it through with me first.

"Why should dogs be castrated in case they meet an in season bitch whose owner is uneducated or just plain stupid?"

Why is it always the 'fault' of the bitch owner?  This is what I simply can't understand.  I've said in a previous post how a lot of people on here appear to be far more 'pro' spaying to stop unwanted attention, litters, etc etc but quite against castrating - I don't get it!!  What about the dog owner being "uneducated or just plain stupid"?  IMO its equally proper for a dog owner to get their dog castrated as for the bitch owner to get their bitch spayed :rolleyes:

Isnt it reasonable to say that if an in season bitch is put in the position - by her owner - to be mated by a dog that it is the bitches owners fault??? I have unspayed bitches and when they are in season I take EVERY precaution that they are not mated. I also have an entire dog, and if he doesnt mate them why should one who doesnt live with me? Its not the dog owners fault if an in season bitch is out and about where dogs can get to her is it? Is it really unreasonable to excersise an in season bitch on the lead and in places where other dogs will on leads? I have had no problem doing so. I am not saying all bitches should be spayed - I am saying their owners should take precautionary measures - if they dont they are irresponsible, stupid or uneducated

"Isnt it reasonable to say that if an in season bitch is put in the position - by her owner - to be mated by a dog that it is the bitches owners fault??? I have unspayed bitches and when they are in season I take EVERY precaution that they are not mated. I also have an entire dog, and if he doesnt mate them why should one who doesnt live with me? Its not the dog owners fault if an in season bitch is out and about where dogs can get to her is it? Is it really unreasonable to excersise an in season bitch on the lead and in places where other dogs will on leads? I have had no problem doing so. I am not saying all bitches should be spayed - I am saying their owners should take precautionary measures - if they dont they are irresponsible, stupid or uneducated"

Yes it is reasonable to say that entire bitch owners should keep them 100% under control throughout their seasons.  What is unreasonable is saying that the owners of "an in season bitch is put in the position - by her owner - to be mated by a dog that it is the bitches owners fault".  What about the bitches who are in their enclosed garden when an entire male scales a 6ft fence to get to it (a recent post addressed this)?  What about a bitch that escapes from the house despite the owners being very careful only to be found pregnant a few weeks after its return?  Yes the "responsible" entire bitch owners will take precautionary measures for their bitch but things out of their control happen don't they!  Lets not forget that the majority of dog owners in the UK are pet owners, many of whom IMO lacking 'common sense'.  My point is that it is equally as important for the Joe Bloggs of an entire dog owner to keep their dog under control at all times so that IF an entire bitch happens to cross its path/be within X number of miles with the wind travelling in the 'right direction' they don't let it get to the bitch or better still have it castrated so even if it did nothing would 'come' of the liason

So dogs should be castrated just in case they get a neighbour with an entire bitch? Personally my bitches are not left unsupervised even in my own garden when in season and I consider my girls are MYresponsibility. I know the deed only takes a few seconds so I take no chances. I cannot take responsibility for someone elses dog but certainly dont expect them all to be castrated because I choose not spay. Dogs being excersised off lead is an everyday occurance and it doesnt take much to avoid areas where there are lots of dogs for 4 weeks twice a year.

Have you considered how useful it is accompanying your bitch if a large dog that has gained access to your garden decides to get aggressive.  This is what finally led to my bitch being spayed.  We were walking her on lead along the road beside the park opposite our house.  A large dog ran out from grass area and accosted us and threatened my husband when he tried to drive him away, the owners (who chose such a large breed :rolleyes:) were too frightened to tackle him themselves.  No I don't think all dogs should be castrated but everyone should take responsibility for entire animals by ensuring the can control the animal by containing within their propery and training and physical ability to handle when they are out and about or castrating if they can't.  If everybody worked on that principle I know from experience we can all get along just fine unfortunately I recognise it just isn't going to happen :rolleyes:.

And that could have still happened if the dog had been castrated. Really the discussion is getting rather silly as it is becoming an argument as to whether ALL dogs should be spayed/castrated just in case a bitch gets pregnant in a 1000 to 1 situation. Perhaps the government would like that - then there would be no dogs to legislate on! :D

Personaly I have had no problems at all from castrated dogs showing any interest in my bitches but I do accept it could happen from what other posters have said even then I don't think any one can doubt it far more likely to be an entire dog.

>Really the discussion is getting rather silly as it is becoming an argument as to whether ALL dogs should be spayed/castrated.

I thought I had been very specific is saying I don't think all dogs should be castrated only in the case of people who keep dogs without taking any responsibility of their entirety expectling only bitch owners to take the trouble.

>in case a bitch gets pregnant in a 1000 to 1 situation. Perhaps the government would like that - then there would be no dogs to legislate on!

I thought we would all like to see, even a in 1 in 1000, mismating never happen :)

Well, 100 to 1 or million to one, the only sure way is to castrate/spay isnt it?