Just seen more daft crosses on a website.,   Malamute x English Bulldog,  Rottweiler x English Bulldog, Sharpei x Pug, all with pedigree prices attached to them. before anyone yells at me, I am not against mutts / mongrels at all, just cant understand why people cross breeds together like this.  Crazy!!

....Like their aren't enough breeds where at least one has a rough idea of size, type and temperament at maturity to choose from already! ;-(

Di

You will never stop people from doing this so it really is pointless getting so irate. Remember some of todays breeds would never exist if they hadn't put x with y. Just educate people on how to buy a puppy properly and thats all you can do.
Becky

Nothing wrong with getting concerned about this!!!  But I do think we have all the breeds we need, is there still a need for x cross y ??? Hoping it goes okay and then hammering them out for profit. It bothers me because I care about dogs and their welfare , period.

Remember some of todays breeds would never exist if they hadn't put x with y.

But those breeds weren't called a new breed within a single generation, it took many, many years, and they weren't created just to make money -they were created for a purpose, like for instance the Golden Retriever: better retrievers were needed when guns improved that could shoot birds in flight.

Do you have proof that the clumber estate didn't always call the spaniels they bred clumbers or that the lucas terrier wasn't always called a Lucas Terrier? I'm pretty certain that many breeds were named as such long before they became standardised (i.e. bred true) so I don't see that as a major sticking point either.
Becky

Don't quite see your point Beckyess, since the Lucas terrier was specifically bred to do a particular job, not because it could be called a Sealywich or something even cuter. It isn't likely that any crosses have been used in the development of the Clumber in the last hundred years or so either. Both were bred to do a job of work & many pups of both breeds who didn't come up to expectations were given away or sold cheaply as pets. They were not bred with the sole purpose of fleecing the ignorant.

In the same way Herr Dobermann didn't call his breed when it was being developed the WeimRott, or Manchrott etc.

I think the Rev. Russell would be turning in his grave if he knew that such an abominable experiment as a "Jackapoo" existed!

Is that how the Doberman was born? just curious!

http://www.danika.com/history.html

No precise early breeding records were kept, but many studies of the Dobermann's background conclude, that the following breeds may have been involved:

Rottweiler
The early version of this breed was probably used for its strength, courage and hardness.

Black & Tan Terrier
Now known as the Manchester Terrier and German Pinscher, this breed was probably used for its agility and high prey drive.

Weimaraner
and other hunting dogs may have been used for their endurance and superior instincts.

Greyhound
May have been used for their elegance, style and speed.

But I believe that Lucas terriers were indeed called Lucas terriers from the first cross. I appreciate they were bred for a purpose but I believe many of todays breeds had 'names' right from the word go. That's the point I'm making.
Becky

That is fair enough as the6y have their breeders names they are not called some cute anagram of the foundation breeds.

Well the Golden Retriever was the YELLOW Retriever although it had other names too. And yes there's written proof of that!

I agree with danny, it was ok years ago to cross to get a dog for a certain job, but these are bred purely on the basis that the person who has to have the new "in thing" will crave it and pay the high asking price to be up to date but what happens when the dog becomes out dated in favour of the next designer cross where do the dogs end up then, more rescues i suppose.And it will happen where there is more money than sense these are people who will pay £2000 for a hand bag and buy a new one next season when the old one is dicarded in favour of the new!!!
Many of these dogs are no more than the new fashion accessory.

Saw an advert in our local paper today, GSD X Pyrenean Mountain dog - quote 'Leonberger look-a-likes'  £400 :rolleyes:
Kat

Hiw ridiculous after all there are already the Leo's and the Estrela Mountain dogs, similar looks different nature, to suit different people with different requiremetns from the mental aspect.

My boss (in his fifties, very intelligent, wealthy businessman) is getting a cockapoo in a few weeks :( They have been considering a small dog for a long while and were thinking of a mini schnauzer. His wife saw a cockapoo and liked it. Now I'm not sure whether they have considered whether the puppy that they have reserved (£500 :( ) may not look anything like the one that his wife saw and may have the temperament of a poodle or a cocker :( They had even been to Discover Dogs  - so why they haven't settled for a pedigree amazes me :(

Daisy

Some people are just unaware unfortunatley. I have always gone for pure bred dogs as my family have, had i not found this i don't think i would have realised the implications of cross breeding.

Until I had Bob, who had papers the length of yer arm and back again, I'd never had a pure bred dog.  But my crossbred dogs were always a wonderful mixture of nobody knew quite what and I wouldn't have had it any other way. In fact I can still remember my children entering Sophie and I into the village fun dog show where the judge simply referred to her has as "that medium sized brownish dog".

Deliberate cross breeding to create a new breed continues to happen quite legitmately - the Eurasier was created recently not for any working purpose but to produce an attractive quiet spitz breed ( ChowxSamoyedXKeeshond) purely as a pet - they have now been accepted by the FCI and are on the  rare breeds register over here. The Csesky Terrier has ( as far as I'm aware never been used for working) but was bred simply as a pet by using a mixture of established terrier breeds.

The difference seems to be that these new breeds are the results of a lifetime of dedicated breeding with a clear goal in mind - not the kind of random pick'n'mix that seems to be happening today. I do believe that society has changed and that some 'old' breeds ( particularly in the terrier or more esoteric gundog/hound group) are no longer compatible with modern lifestyles - there seems - to me - little point in artificially trying to maintain an interest in these by methods such as the KC endangered breeds initiative - and the legitimate breeding of new more 'user friendly' breeds seems perfectly reasonable and realistic. To be frank the sole reason that these poorly bred Puggles/cockerpoos/Labradoodles exist is because they fill a niche in the market - we should not - (again in my opinion ;)) - close our minds totally to the creation of new breeds providing their breeding is done in ethical goals led ( not monetary led ) ways.

Yvonne

The Cesky Terrier (sometimes called the Czech Terrier, Czesky Terrier or Bohemian Terrier) is a small, but sturdy terrier that was developed in Czechoslavakia by geneticist Frantisek Horak.Mr. Horak was a Scotty and Sealyham breeder.  Most terriers were bred to "go to ground," which involves locating or following burrowing animals into their holes.  This task requires a small but courageous dog. 

Mr. Horak wanted a game dog that could go to ground and not "get stuck" as his Scotties sometimes did, but one that was more amenable to other dogs than most terriers so they could be used to hunt in groups. 

Mr. Horak believed that crossing a Sealyham and a Scotty could produce the type of dog he wanted.   He kept extremely detailed records of his breeding program, so unlike many breeds, the history of the Cesky is extremely well documented.  His breed gained popularity, particularly with hunters.

1949  Mr. Horak did the first breeding of a Scotty and a Sealyham.

1963  The Cesky was recognized by the FCI

1980's  Mr. Horak decided that the breed needed some new blood, so, with the FCI's permission a Sealyham was bred back into the breed twice, in 1984, and again in 1985.

The Csesky Terrier has ( as far as I'm aware never been used for working) but was bred simply as a pet by using a mixture of established terrier breeds.

Sorry but you are totally wrong about them being bred for pets only, but if you researched them under the spelling you used you wouldn't find anything about the breed & of course they were't given a cutesy name either

I stand corrected Moonmaiden  my 'Encyclopedia of Dogs' has them listed as family pets only :D -note to self - write out Cesky one hundred times LOL - I quite agree that the creation of a new breed would require meticulous record keeping, a thorough understanding of the gentics involved ( and a certain ruthlessness in order to be able to discard any pups that do not come up to the ideal in mind ) however given this criteria do you not agree that it is perfectly acceptable to deliberately cross some breeds to make another ?.

In answer to 'what niche ?' I can only point out the immense interest in these designer crosses from the general public - we may not approve but you cannot dispute that the market IS there !.

Yvonne

There's a market for addictive drugs and WMDs, but that doesn't mean they should be supplied. ;)

Seriously, if one is trying to create a new breed, one must have an idea of what one's aiming for before you start, and ensure that the examples that don't match up to it are discarded, not sold for exorbitant sums.

Quite agree and just what I said in my original post

Yvonne

I'm sorry but what niche are Labradoodles, Puggles etc. filling, except for rich spoilt brats who don't know any better?  Talking about the stars in America when I said the previous bit.

The only niche that they are filling is to line peoples pockets whose only thought is about giving a stupid name to a cross breed!  They are not creating a new type of breed tht's of any use, even the Labradoodle has been proven to show that what it was originally hoped to do didn't work out nd there are enough breeds tht already fill this criteria so agin they are not really needed.

Once again let me reiterate tht I don't mind accidental cross breeds but the fashion ones should not be bred in my opinion.

>I'm sorry but what niche are Labradoodles, Puggles etc. filling, except for rich spoilt brats who don't know any better?

Too right! Although you don't have to be rich to be stupid!

It's the ludicrous naming of these crossbreeds that infuriates me because I'm willing to bet a number of Great British Pounds that if one of these "designer" mixtures bore the honest description of "crossbreed" the people prepared to buy one wouldn't touch it with a bargepole.