Hi there, I have a 16 month french bulldog who has always been somewhat of a 'character' recently we aquired a beautiful lurcher from a rescue home who is just brilliant  but since her arrival our frenchie - rizzo has changed considerably. At first we thought he was ill, he was getting very bad diaorrhea, seemed listless and down. We have had him checked for all sorts of illnesses; campilobacter, pancreatic insufficiency etc. He has now started becoming aggressive as well. We have had a behaviourist come to the house who implemented techniques to put me and my parter as 'leaders of the pack' to no avail and whilst his diaorrhea has gone,and he seems in better health he is still miserable. He has only just started cocking his leg so perhaps he is of an age where he is trying to be more dominant, but I am at a loss as what to do when he growls and / or lashes out. Outside of the house he is fine, and when other people arrive he is fine, the aggression starts when I go to him and 'invade his space' as it were or if I am stroking him he will be fine for a moment then suddenly will start growling. Could it be there is something hurting him?  Any suggestions would be so gratefully recieved, as I am sure you can tell by this message I am somewhat confused and worried for him...

Hi there, I think you did the right thing in getting a behaviourist in, sadly there are good and bad in this profession and one who suggests that being leader of the pack will help a depressed/aggressive  dog or one who has other problems, plus physical problems, is sadly way too out of date to be of any real use.

I'd suggest you try another behaviourist, you should be able to get a referral from your vet :)

Also see; www.apbc.org.uk

Good luck :)

Lindsay
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How is Rizzo with your lurcher? If he's been checked out and there's nothing physically wrong, it sounds like he's got to the 'Kevin' stage of his life and he's pushing his boundaries. Frenchies, as you know, are highly intelligent little dogs and use it to their advantage. It soulds like Rizzo has trained you to "GO AWAY!" quite effectively. Whatever you do, you need to be 100% consistent with it - even 99% isn't good enough.

This is a very good article on 'alpha' dogs and how to adjust your dog's position in your family. http://www.chowwelfare.com/cciw/alpha.htm I'd recommend reading it very thoroughly and giving it a try.

I know a lot of people dislike the use of words like 'alpha' and 'pack' but the bottom line isn't the terminology, but the fact that you are the responsible adults in the family and Rizzo may not understand this by the sound of his behaviour. You hopefully wouldn't put up with a human child bullying you, so why would you put up with your dog doing it?

I agree with Phoebe on this.  Our dog is our first and when she was about 7-8 months old we were having probs with who was actually in charge.  Training was going well when food was involved but the rest of the time she would only do what suited her.  It's all very well refuting 'dominance' and 'pack' but the dog still needs to know that what you say goes. An experienced owner of the same breed  suggested we exert our authority over our dog by insisting we walk through doorways before her, that she moves when we tell her (she would lie across doorways and we would step over her) and that she eats after we have eaten.  A lot of people might not agree with these methods but for us the transformation was amazing.  Within a week of doing this our dog was not only much more attentive but also much more affectionate.  We made these little changes with no fuss, no shouting or punishing just consistency and persistence.

Thanks so much for the advice. We have been making sure we go through doors first, making sure that he is not centre of attention etc ( which I am sure is part of the problem!! :rolleyes:) when the lurcher first arrived he was pretty aggressive towards her, and she is very passive so never fought back - he basically bullied her but is fine now. I think you are right in that he is generally being a thug, and I will make sure i implement the advice given. I would also be really grateful to know what people do when there is an 'incident' i.e he growls / snaps... some people say to turn him outside, others say to 'growl' at him and I cant repeat what some people think... but I dont want to confuse the poor thing or make the situation worse by using all sorts of different techniques. any ideas would be fab. and thanks again x

I agree dogs need boundaries etc and there's certainly no need to allow a dog to bully anyone! Definitely not! but I'd be asking if the dog is actually feeling unwell first of all if he's had problems. jSecondly, the pack leader theory hasn't worked apparently and the dog seems miserable when it is implemented. Often if part of the method is to ignore the dog when it solicits attention (sometimes part of the NILIF method)then the dog will seek les and less interaction with the owner and get depressed too. It can be a consequence of the method used so it's important to know that :)

RE dogs growling, I'd not growl back as that can lead to escalation. Problems I've dealt with when helping owners with this kind of problem usually do escalate if the owner growls back. What you really need to do, if the dog has a clean bill of health, is to learn how to get the dog off with no confrontation, which is why I suggested someone to help hands on.

YOu can use a long lead and reward for getting off with high value food rewards and gradually train for obedience on this, but it's easier to get someone toshow you than to describe over the net :)

Lindsay
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It's all very well refuting 'dominance' and 'pack' but the dog still needs to know that what you say goes.

Of course! Did anyone say anything different? Obedience is really not dependent on whether the owner eats a biscuit before the dog etc etc.

It may work but not because the dog sees the owners as alpha (recent scientific research has pretty much debunked the whole dominance theory which was based on flawed science) but because there is a consistency and the dog knows what is expected of it :) It's not working because the dog recognises the owner as any kind of alpha. Often the dominance theory is given out to "solve" anything from pulling on the lead to aggression!!!

In this particular instance, I'd suggest that if the dog is being given less attention whilst there is  a new dog in the house, as suggested,  it's a recipe for problems. This is exactly why I so dislike the dominance theory. Sorry to be a bit blunt, I'm usually more tactful but I've had a hectic day and am looking forward to a nice cuppa and feet up :D

Lindsay
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Out of interest the link given gives terribly outdated thoughts and advice, it seems so strange reading something like that nowadays.

Lindsay
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Glad you said it first, Lindsay! Only I was having ever such a lot of trouble getting my tactful debunking the dominance head on!

Query ~ Do you think there is too much emphasis on one theory or another?  I have to admit I sometimes get confused when different opinions seem to be similar but called something else.

My post wasn't meant to be confrontational but more defensive in advance :)  I don't follow one theory or another but see good and bad points in different advice.  I know some of the advice that works for my dog would fall under the theory of dominance and that some people on here would reject it which is why I said what I did.  Dogs do need boundaries regardless of how you present this theoretically.  However, as far as the link is concerned, I don't see the logic in growling back at a dog. 

>Obedience is really not dependent on whether the owner eats a biscuit before the dog etc etc.

...... and we would all starve if it did ;) :D 

:P :P

This is such a big topic and you will find many opinions <g>

The way many professional trainers and behaviourists look at it is to say that dogs need boundaries and manners and training but that this has nothing to do with dominance. There is now so much evidence to back this up, such as the fact that alpha wolves often don't eat before the others and so on. I liken it to a teenager - they can be horrible <g> but are just pushing boundaries, not trying to be dominant or to take over the family. I used to use a loose version of pack theory but to be honest it was hard, I wanted different things and was relieved when  i found that ignoring it meant i still had well mannered dogs I think it can really mess up the relationship between owner and dog if taken to the extreme.

Since using more modern methods (and the mantra, "positive is not permissive" is one of my favourites :D ) with my own and other's dogs, I've found it so much easier to solve things and to train the dogs. I think theories come and go as with everything but following the history of dog training and behaviour  is fascinating, look how far we've come since Barbara Woodhouse :D  Dominance theory is really in the past although some will probably always follow it. 

I think the worst thing with modern methods though is that people willtend to ignore dogs when really they should be guiding them, and don't know how to give consequences. Also to be really effective (eg if someone wanted to go on to competition) it's a good idea to get to grips with learning theory. Clicker training is a great way of training that doesn't rely on any kind of dominance but is yet really effective - top people in many sports now are using it and being highly successful :)

I'm rambling, I must stop!! ;)

Lindsay
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>people willtend to ignore dogs when really they should be guiding them

Also people tend to ignore good behaviour, albeit unknowingly! Dogs are often ignored when they're lying quietly during the owner's meal, or waiting patiently on the lead while their owner chats, or not pulling on the lead instead of being rewarded, but instead only get attention for misbehaviour. :(

Yes totally agree with you on that point JG, we must always remember to reward and to "notice" good behaviour! :)

Lindsay
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I would go with Lindsay's original suggestion of consulting a behaviourist via the apbc - hopefully going this route you will find a person who can explore all the possible reasons for the growling - it would be a shame to put this down to him "trying to be dominant" if the real reason lies somewhere else (or is more complex) and that's the bit that you can't suss out over the internet.

>We have had a behaviourist come to the house who implemented techniques to put me and my parter as 'leaders of the pack' to no avail<

It would be interesting to know what these techniques were.

I agree that dogs can inadvertently learn that growling is a successful way of making us "go away" but why would they want to make us go away?  Because they are expecting something bad to happen?  Because they have lost their faith in us?  Because they are in pain?  Whilst it's not acceptable and this behaviour needs to change, if you ignore his warning and try to grab him to put him outside, then he may not feel he has any option but to escalate things, and the same goes for any aversive method that you try.

Find a behaviourist who can help you restore the relationship between you and eliminate the need for growling.

Out of interest the link given gives terribly outdated thoughts and advice, it seems so strange reading something like that nowadays.

If we changed the words 'alpha' and 'dominance' with nicer, fluffier words, would you be happier?  I see nothing wrong in being told to treat your dog in a non confrontational, non violent way and try to be aware of what the dog is going to do next - which is exactly what the info in that link stresses. Yes ANY method used inappropriately and taken to extreme will cause problems and a lot of approaches fail because of the owner rather than the dog. And no method is going to work 100% of the time due to dogs being individuals and the 'human error' factor. For example, Clicker training is fab, but not everybody can get the hang of it due to it relying on good timing.

As for growling back at the dog - how stupid is that! I've always found that in a confrontation with my own dogs in their 'teenage' stage, quietly walking away works far better than manhandling or shouting at a dog. They've always grown up well adjusted. But that's probably terribly outdated by now too.

I don't think you need to change the words to anything "fluffy" because it's the basic dominance theory that is outdated. Personally I don't believe that dogs see humans as part of their pack which is why I doubt they care a fig about the order in which meals are served, for example. Or indeed whether their humans eat at all!

But even if the theory has been debunked, the outcomes remain similar surely? In that you are aiming you hope your dog will grow up to be well adjusted because you've built up a relationship of mutual respect and trust which has been achieved through positive training methods.

I don't think you need to change the words to anything "fluffy" because it's the basic dominance theory that is outdated. Personally I don't believe that dogs see humans as part of their pack which is why I doubt they care a fig about the order in which meals are served, for example. Or indeed whether their humans eat at all!

Exactly so, I'm not sure why changing words to make them fluffy would help or not? Not that it matters!

This thread has gone off a bit, we're not really discussing dominance theory (although a Search will show lots of discussions, Em's posts are particularly good :D ).

Lindsay
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>I doubt they care a fig about the order in which meals are served

You're probably right but for us feeding the dog after us was positive training as this along with training 'move' and ensuring we walk through doorways before her changed her behaviour towards me and OH within a few days.  The change was obvious so regardless of what theory you pigeonhole it into surely this is positive training?

perhaps you should consdier  asking someone  knows something about the breed ?

May i suggest, horror of horrors, you consult the breeder, instead of all the fancy dog listeners, behaourists, scam- mongers.  We recently rehomed a dog, because it was "growling at the kids when it was eating" but he stayed with us for a couple of days , and all he does was talk while he eats, non aggressive "talking" ( we bred him and his grandmother used to drive us up the wall with it) The French bulldog is a stubborn little brat, often males can lead unsuspective new owners up the garden path..  I'd suspect you brought in a another dog, unseen, and eaxpected a one man dog, who's had his own lifestyle tossed into chaos. He's a sensitve little dog., who's had an upset, so no wonder he has tummy problems.  You need to make sure he adapts to the new situation rather than trying to be "alpha  male" and all that CR@#.  a Frenchie will just turn his back and give you one hell of a dirty look.

Fiona
www.frenchbulldogs.org.uk
ww.senkrah.co.uk