Anyone know if full results are on line. Couldn't see any yet??

http://www.nationalterrier.co.uk/ntc.htm

Have a look here :)

Yip got that one but no results up yet

I found the BIS picture of the bull terrier in dog world rather funny - looks like his handler is covered in chalk!

Yes most people chalk their dogs in bull terriers

I personally don't have a problem with it.  I worked for a couple of pro handlers in the US in my late teens.  There I spent a year blow drying, gelling, moussing, hair spraying, chalking & colouring(dying) various terrier breeds(thats why the terriers there are much richer in colour - especially Lakelands) but even as an assistant I wouldn't dare go near the rings with any evidence on my hands/apron/clothes, etc let alone have a BIS pic taken covered in the stuff

I think the KC rule is a bit stupid anyways chalk is generally soft & doesnt alter the texture of the coat neither does hairspray if used correctly.  But if nothing is said about this then the KC need to do away with the rule & random coat testing.  If a sample was requested from my dog i would refuse on the basis that a chalked dog won a bis/group covered in the stuff.

Is spray used on wheatens over here?

If a sample was requested from my dog i would refuse on the basis that a chalked dog won a bis/group covered in the stuff.

The only thing is you would have signed the entry form agreeing to be bound by the KC rules & one of them is the random testing  so arguing someone else was breaking the rules wouldn't wash & you would probably get warned & fined or even banned from competing & anything to do with shows

Hopefully nothing but water is used on Wheatens over here ;)

The trouble with the American way of dyeing, moussing, spraying etc is that it's all a distraction :(  surely the dog is the important thing - NOT the artificial enhancements?  What are they judging in the competitions over there?  Hairdressing ability?

Worst thing I ever saw at a Champ show, after the full boxes of chalk they put on the EBTs, was the EBT who was getting Clown paint on his naked pink face to disguise the lack of hair :( :(   surely the judge wasn't so dense as to not notice the dog's face was covered in makeup? :rolleyes:

IMHO I can't help thinking that if someone needs to use every product available on their dog, it sort of shows they don't think their dog is good enough ;) ;)

No-one uses hair spray on a wheaten - the coat should be soft, silky and flowing so hairspray would not do anything to improve a wheatens coat. Finishing sprays etc. are sometimes used to combat static, but we all know if the coats were tested it could end in disqualification.

>Worst thing I ever saw at a Champ show, after the full boxes of chalk they put on the EBTs, was the EBT who was getting Clown paint on his naked pink face to disguise the lack of hair     surely the judge wasn't so dense as to not notice the dog's face was covered in makeup?

I did once see someone putting eyeliner on their dog to improve pigmentation around its eyes! :rolleyes:

Hi there,

No spay isnt used on wheaten here, or at least it shouldnt be. We dont use anything on ours, if they have a correct coat, a bath using shampoo and good conditioner a few day before the show, is all that is needed :) Or like fillis said, the use of finishing spay are used by some people to combat static. The only thing i use, is a fine mist of water on their coats to help flatten it down, as lottie always manages to lie in a funny position and her coat drys completely sticking up! lol :rolleyes: :D Like fillis also said, wheaten coats should be soft and silky, on a coat as fine as a wheatens, hairspary would chage the texture and make it worse. 

>I think the KC rule is a bit stupid anyways chalk is generally soft & doesnt alter the texture of the coat neither does hairspray if used correctly.

But what about altering the colour of the dog? I watched a westie being chalked before going in the ring at a recent open show, the dog was grey to start off with and it was chalked till it was white and won BOB. To me, that dog had a fault, its coat WAS NOT white as the breed standard calls for.

sarah xxxx

I agree about the hairspray on wheatens I used it once while preparing a wheaten for the ring & never again, it made the hair go very weird i guess because its soft & fine I had to wash & blow dry the dog all over again in record time, thankfully the handler i worked for didnt over trim so they didnt need to be so sculptured.

The funniest/weirdst thing I saw(there were lots!) when I was in the US was a well known female handler had obviously got the colour mixture wrong & ended up with a Lakeland a very bizarre shade verging on green!

The few westies that came through my hands in the US werent totally white either. Both having a biscuit shading to the body coat with the rest being very dull white.  Which meant they had to be dyed white & then chalked at the shows.

>The few westies that came through my hands in the US werent totally white either. Both having a biscuit shading to the body coat with the rest being very dull white.  Which meant they had to be dyed white & then chalked at the shows.

I hope I'm not the only one who finds that totally appalling?

No JG i,m with you on this one if double handling is classed as cheating then surely this must be as well at least we don,t alter our dogs what if the poor dog was to lick some of the colour before it was dry surely it must be dangerous to them, not to mention the smell and fumes which the dog will notice far more than any human could

If a Westie isn't the colour it's meant to be (erm - that'll be white!) then it's got a major fault. The breed is that colour for a purpose, and any deviation back towards the historic colour should rule the animal out of the gene pool. Disguising the fault and cheating by dying the coat is just terrible.

I was lucky enough to go to Montgomery one year and was amazed that a sealy was pure white at one show and at the next show, next day, the very same dog had a brown eye patch!

lol!! :D :D

as a bully person i think i will stick up for our breed, as is the opinion of most BT folk, when the scissored breeds are told too stop then we will stop chalking.
a clever groomer can hide faults through clever scissoring, a clever handler can hide faults through clever handling, basically we are all at it.
Why dont we show dogs and not use brushes, scissors, chalk, stripping equipment.?? then it would be fair in every breed.
chalk too Bull Terrierr is like a brush too a Lhasa.
We chalk too improve presentation, not for hiding faults a clean well groomed dog looks 100 times better than one in its natural state as any BT owner will know, most BT'S look grubby without chalk, they have a thin coat (which isnt a fault) and a little chalk makes the overall picture a better one.
its like seeing a ungroomed kerry blue next too a immaculately groomed one..
which will win?????......... i wonder !!!
nothing wrong with having first class presentation .... its been done for decades ... IN ALL BREEDS ......
vicki

I am also a bully person and yes it is common knowledge that BT are chalked but I think that others in the breed flaunt it to much by covering themselves in chalk too and then being plastered over the major dog papers. Its just rubbing peoples noses in it! I agree that a bully has a thin coat especilally around the head area and the use of chalk helps finish the overall picture but I can't understand why some owner/handlers are covered up to their elbows in it and then parade around the ring! Other breeds use chalk too, Fox Terriers and westies but they don't seem to cause such a fuss! Clare

Whether you agree with chalking or not, I really dont think that it can be compared to brushing and combing or trimming! Do you seriously think long coated breeds should not be trimmed or combed? The owners would be reported for cruelty.

I've seen really good bullterriers being shown and very little chalk in evidence ;)  but then I've seen others have a whole box of chalk put on them - and anything else nearby, this is what's really being commented on, not the use of a little chalk to improve the presentation, but whole boxes of the stuff!

As for trimmed breeds being artfully trimmed, the judge never judges without putting hands on and under the coat ;)  that way his hands can see what the eyes may have missed, moving the dog will also show whether the dog is constructed correctly.  I don't know about other trimmed breeds, but in Bedlingtons I've seen dogs with inexpertly trimmed coats (beginner owner, not a face ;) )  being given CCs over beautifully trimmed dogs, simply because the dog itself is considered the better dog.  This is not a one off either, it's acknowledged by many that not everyone can become a master dog trimmer and that a good dog shouldn't penalised because of it.

The breed standard of the Bull Terrier states that the coat should have a fine gloss.  How can this be seen when the dog is covered with chalk, which produces a matt effect?  What is the object of using the chalk? to produce a whiter dog, or to diguise the lack of a correct glossy coat?

not just BT are chalked we where sitting near the bedlington terriers and they where chalking them up also, and it was not to help with grooming they where going into the ring
carol

I'm shocked that so many people witness so much blatant rule-breaking but don't report it to the Show Secretary at the time. No wonder people cheat if they know they'll get away with it.

Don't groom or comb my breed :d :d   I actually think it's disgusting what some people do with their dogs.  poodles with hairspay on them, I even know someone who takes straightening irons etc. to the shows for their Shih Tzu, I think it's ridiculous.  Even when I showed Pom's I never ever put any product on except for water.  My dogs had the correct textured coat and didn't need anything adding but the amount of people who still today put loads of talk etc. into their dogs coats and it#'s there for all to see but nobody seems to do anything.

Surely if you've got to do all of that then the coat must be incorrect?

You're right :( some people do chalk their bedlingtons, but there are many who don't bother and still win in the ring ;) :)

the kennel club knows this goes on , but if they are not prepared to do anything about it , like they do nothing about double handling, they may set the rules but it is up to them to make sure people keep to the rules they have set out for everyone to follow, it is a shame for people that do not put nothing at all on there dogs coats and get knocked everytime, just wondering if a new judge would ever know the correct texture of some of the coats if they never get their hands on a correct untouched coat.
carol

Well thats the rub - the KC have so many rules and regulations they cant possibly police them all. In my opinion they need a serious review to be made to cut down on some of the more minor regulations so that they can then concentrate on what they believe is important.

I suppose they can only act if someone registers a complaint. All the while people simply 'tut' about these goings-on but otherwise do nothing, the cheats will continue to get away with it. :(

It would be rather interesting to see what the KC actually did with a chalking complaint :D

proberly what they do when you complain about double handling nothing, you have to take video evidence of what you are complaining about and you also have to put down i think it is £35.00 to go with the complaint.
carol

Having to provide evidence and 'put your money where your mouth is' (not you personally!) is only fair, to try to prevent the possibility of 'bad sports' making false accusations against their rivals ... ;)

the money bit is ok but what about providing evidence, if you have complained to the show managment and they have been and seen the evidence and asked the people in question to stop whatever they are doing, and then it goes to the kc and they said you need video evidence not everyone carries a video camera with them.

it might be different if a lot of people complained all at once to the kc and i mean over 10 at a time complained, and like someone has already said they have that many rules no one can completley police the situation, and people just tend to turn a blind eye to  what goes on a lot of the time,

people nowadays do not want to be seen to be telling tales on anyone or get themselves a name as a snitch as no doubt you could be shunned if anyone found out.

i enjoy my dog showing win or loose, more often than not loose, and i enjoy the atmosphere and everything about showing, and if some people want to cheat it is up to them, at least i can say i went into the ring with a natural dog
carol

Many mobile phones have video capabilities. ;)

>if some people want to cheat it is up to them

So you're another who moans about it but isn't prepared to help put a stop to it. :rolleyes: And so it goes on ... :(

if people want to cheat it is up to them but i don't , and i will not waste my time or money complaining to the kc when they know themselves it goes on and they do nothing to stop it, if they took a good stance against it maybe then i would think differently, but why should i take a stance when i am only one of the little people and there are not enough of us little people to compete agains the kc we pay enough money to the kc every single year and we all know the rules, i show for fun and fun only people that know me know that i show for fun that i do lots of other doggy sports as well, so showing is not the be all and end all for me,
i have started going to more events that the kc have no controll over these events are run superbly and they are a lot of fun, they maynot be breed show events but they are run smoothly without kc interference, i would also enter breed shows that where not run by the kc , as long as i knew that if any cheating was going on the person or persons responsible would be asked to leave and escorted from the building.
i do not have a mobile phone and i do not have a camera at the shows.
if you think so strongly about cheating have you emailed the kc to put your complaint forward about the terrier in the picture on front of last weeks dog paper being chalked and if you did have you recieved any type of reply off the kc.
carol

>i do not have a mobile phone

Nor have I, but we're very much in a minority! Even junior school children have them ... ;)

>i am only one of the little people

Of whom there are thousands upon thousands just like you. Yes, there areenough, plenty more than enough, to make a difference.

As for complaining about the terrier; I haven't even seen the picture, so of course I haven't complained. :rolleyes: Hearsay is inadmissible.