oh my god, help needed asap please! just got back from our morning walk and met a black standard poodle which freddie was so scared of. he put his hackles up, snarled and showed his teeth, to make things worse both the owner and dog (bitch) where very friendly and lovely. he is not usually like that, she deffinately wanted to be friends but he was having none of it,is it fear? he is a very sensative 23 month old and as i have mentioned in another post had bad advise via bad training school. what do i do let him run free and meet dogs or hold him back? we are suposse to be getting a puppy this summer as as a rule he has always been a very friendly lad, that was until this training school mistake i made

sorry let me just add that when the poodle was comming up towards us freddie was lying down in his ready to play and say hi way.

maybe its the black dog syndrome some dogs just get scared of them.Some dogs fear my breed because they cant see thier eyes ...one reason why I tie it back.

gsd2004 - This behaviour on the part of your dog is almost certainly due to poor socialisation when he was a puppy.  You mention that you will be getting a puppy soon - please make sure you socialise him well and early this time, to avoid this happening again. 

What you describe sounds like fear aggression.  Perhaps you didn't socialise your dog to black dogs, or to enough different dogs for him to generalise that "all" dogs are ok, or perhaps your socialisation took place too late.  Perhaps he was a rescue dog and you weren't responsible for any of that.

I would not let him run free and meet dogs unless you are sure he won't be aggressive to any dog he comes across.  If you are not sure of that, then you should keep him on a lead.  After all, aggression is contagious and it's not very fair for you to let your dog go and pass it on to another dog...

Hi gsd,

Have a look at this site, its by a Norwegian Behaviourist, read the Article on calming signals, and also read the Q's and answers..this will give you a really good insight into what communication is going on between your dog and others (that you dont see..or dont recognise,or know about..yet!)
         Maybe you might want to try walking Freddie in an arc around other dogs rather than (the more confrontational) head to head meeting, and make sure you keep talking to him..babble away..incessantly..in a happy..its okaaaay yayyyyyyy!! type voice, he'll take the 'its ok nothing to fret about' lead from you.
Here's the link, happy reading! (its very enlightening HTH)
http://turidrugaas.com

Not that's a fascinating link, thanks HuskyGal. I've saved it for a longer read but was taken by this comment:

>In my experience owners of utility dogs often don't let their dogs go further away than a few feet before they give commands.

Which kind of puts into perspective the pointlessness of standing halfway across a field repeatedly shouting, with ever greater desperation "Come, Schnookums, come to mummy"

i got freddie as a 11 week old pup, and as i have mentioned before he was absolutely fine until the ear biting episode now 7 weeks ago. he was well socialised as a pup with a variety of different breeds, but i must say he deffintely has favirotes namely goldens,labs,collies,king charles etc, he has never liked spaniels, but i find this has happened due to other peoples misconseptions of gsds, you know picking their dogs up or walking the other way. i do have to be abit careful of him as he does have mild hd so running and playing for long streaches is out of the question, as is our long summer walks to the pub!!!! i do somewhat find remarks about bad sosalisation a tad unwarrented as i have tried very hard to socialise him well

Of course you have gsd, as you say your 'trying' and no one can take that away from you! Dont take things too personally, especially as they're meant with good intention to help you...not to put you down, so chin up,bounce back! youve nothing to feel niggled about, we're all learning at one level or another with our dogs, even after years of experience!
      Just remember until you know exactly what 'good socialisation' is, you could be giving your dog 'bad socialisation' without even realising or meaning to! (Im using the universal you here!) 'socialisation' itself is not enough until its done right.
:D

Hello gsd2004

I hope you are getting over the shock of yesterday morning's snarl.  It really does shake you up, doesn't it?

It is a sad fact of life these days, that when you confess that your dog has behaved less than honourably with another, and you are feeling bad about it anyway, someone may indavertently make it worse with an accusation of poor socialisation.  It may or may not be true (and we'll all know better next time we have a puppy) but I'm not sure how helpful it is to the person quaking over their cup of coffee because they've just had a horrible experience with their dog.

I haven't read your other threads but from what you are saying on this one, it seems that you have a dog who behaved acceptably with other dogs until he received a nasty bite on the ear?  If that's true, then this new snarling/growling is in response to that and there's a good chance you can change his behaviour for the better.

For the moment, you do need to keep him on the lead, don't you?  If there's a chance he's going to aggress, you don't want to allow that.  Just carrying on as usual and "hoping for the best" isn't a good strategy, as I'm sure you realise.

If it were me, I would also put off getting the puppy until I had this one ironed out - otherwise I might end up with two snarly dogs.

I would start re-introducing him to other dogs in a controlled way, with plenty of distance between the dogs so that he stays relaxed and reward him for this.  Keep him at a distance where he can stay relaxed and be rewarded.  Only take him closer as he regains his confidence.  Turid Rugaas' website, as recommended by Huskygal, is wonderful and will tell you more about this.

Good luck with getting him back on track.

Lillith, the sad fact is that it's very hard to rectify a situation when you have a dog which, as you put it, "behaves less than honourably with another".  And in most cases, it is far easier to prevent it in the first place with socialisation.

It is, after all, a fact that the majority of aggressive behaviour is down to fear, which is in turn down to poor socialisation.  If I've pointed out that something might be a socialisation issue, especially to someone who says they will shortly be getting another puppy, I don't think it should be treated as though it is the equivalent of a personal attack on the OP.  I did say in my first post "almost certainly" down to socialisation, and not "definitely"... :)

Yes, onetwothree, I am aware that it is much easier to prevent aggression through socialisation than to cure it through behaviour modification.  I am well aware that the majority of aggressive behaviour is due to fear, which is in turn down to poor socialisation.

Yes, socialisation will be important with the new puppy and I can see why you mentioned it

However, in the context of the adult dog, I think it's more relevant to look at what can be done now.

Not meant to be offensive in any way, but I'd still say that getting him at 11 wks is older than ideal - 7-8 wks is the best age to get a new pup at.  If he didn't go out till after jabs, that could well mean he was 14 wks before he went out.  Even if he went out at 11 wks, there is a growing body of evidence which states that the socialisation window MAY begin to close as early as 12 wks, and IF that's the case you would only have had 1 wk to socialise him in, which no one, no matter how hard they tried, could achieve.  I'm not saying I agree it begins to close at 12 wks, just that there is evidence to support that view and it's a view which many hold.  It's widely accepted now that the most important time for socialisation is 3-12wks.

In addition, some breeds, like GSDs and collies, need especially thorough and careful socialisation because their intelligence and highly strung qualities can potentially make them more likely to be nervous of things than some other breeds. 

Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's a lot harder to socialise a dog well than many people think - it's more or less a full time job until you're through the socialisation period, and you have to cover everything not just once but several times before you can consider you've got it "done".  Dunbar suggests your pup should have met 100 different people by the age of 12 wks and at least 20 strange, friendly dogs.  That's a lot for you to have done in your 1st week with him!

Of course there's also the chance that it's a matter of genes - but then that should be almost eliminated if the pup is bought from a breeder who only breeds dogs with good temperaments who don't display fear aggression or over-nervous behaviour.

Hi GSD
Don,t beat youself up about this please I,ve already been there and done it all to for you. :rolleyes:
Three years ago I bought an eight week old puppy and started socialising her right from the start.
She,s been treated in exactly the same way as all my other dogs ever were ( not only the Shepherds) but she is a totally different case to any dog I,ve ever had. She has her freinds at training class will show in the showring without even glancing at another dog and will do agility and obedience training but walk her out in our village and its a totally different story.
She suffers from fear aggression mainly due to other people letting their dogs jump in her face when she was a youngster when we pass a certain house where one dog lives its almost like she changes gear in her hurry to get past.I,ve tried walking past other dogs quietly with her turning our backs on other dogs whatever I do its always the same but only within our own village.
She,s very confident with people accepting all visitors to our house loves children and is ok with any horses or other livestock but struggles to accept other dogs ,
She was chased by an out of control dog when she was twelve weeks old and on a lead and was so friightened she emptied her anal glands.
I,m no dog behaviourist but have never been without a dog for fourty six years have always been around dogs and dog people but my girl is nothing like any I,ve had before I feel so sorry for her not being able to enjoy being a dog for fear of her getting in trouble, I know what you mean about people picking up their little dogs in horror when they see a Gsd coming but sometimes some of the little dogs can be just as naughty as the big ones only some people seem to find it quite amusing when their little fido tries to attack a bigger dog and you,re being spoun arouund while trying to hang on to two or three dogs at once:mad.
Sorry folks if this has turned into a rant but I just wanted to let GSD know they are not alone and someone out knows how they are feeling.
Sharon

Did you ever find a good training club nearby? The club I go to uses all positive methods of training and is well supervised. We usually have at least one dog strolling around the perimeter who is afraid and possibly fear aggressive towards other dogs. The dogs are unable to participate in classes but the instructors guide them on how to get them used to other dogs slowly and at their own pace to build their confidence (all free, nice instructors at my club). Since all of the dogs are on leads (well, we get the odd escapee ) the chance of these dogs getting into an uncomfortable situation is lessened. I looked through your old posts and know you had problems with a bad trainer but there must be a good place somewhere in the south. Perhaps the local breed club would know a good group to work with.

thanks all, i know i took what was said about sosalization to heart, but it is a real kick in the teeth when people "asume" that because a dog has suddenly become slightly agressive it is due to this. i know that i could most likely have done more to socalise him, but then again as pointed out he is so different to any other dog i have ever owned. maybe i read the postings wrong, sometimes things writen do not "read" like we would say them.
i came on here for advise as to how to cure this. tomorrow we are off for a walk with a friend who has a very dosile greyhound along a very busy walkway. i sometimes wonder if all of his minor illnesses ( and boy have there been many) have played a part in all this along with his hip displacer.
we are booked to go to a training school at end of easter so will see what this brings!!!
sorry for being miss sensative next time will count to 100 before answering posts

That's ok gsd - I didn't assume it was socialisation, but in most cases like this (sudden, unpredictable aggression) it is - however, it might not be in this case, who knows.

I really think you should see how things go at a good, positive reinforcement training class.  I would also try to keep him away from dogs you think he might object to, because you don't want to give him the chance to practise this behaviour, as each time he practises it, he strengthens the behaviour, just like any other behaviour. 

hi all, well just got back from our walk with a friend and her very docile greyhound. we walke along the cannal which is always pretty busy. freddie walked lovely with her, only trying to get her to play every so often. we passed about six dogs, all of which freddie was inpecable with. i aloud him to say hi when they approached us and he did not growl or rase his hackles once!!! the only one time he got "over excited" was when a very bousrous and very lead pulling staffy was comming towards us, so afraid acted like a coward and got freddie to sit and do give paw for a treat, until staffy had passed. so i am now totally convinced that either freddie has been scared by something in the past week, or the attack has been on his mind, or is it possible that he has just been through a "kevin" stage again?. for all you behaviourists he is 23 months old and i know for a fact that his dad is a steadfast sensable type and his mum was very scatty until she reached 4. what ever the reason i am well chuffed

You simply just can't read these creatures minds, especially without seeing the behaviour first hand which is why going to see a professional 'ion the ground' might help you enormously. I see you are starting classes after easter - thats great.

You simply never know why they react the way they do sometimes. Our own set of morals thinks its dreadful for a dog to 'go' for a bitch, or an older dog to 'go' at a puppy but they just don't hum to the same tune as us. The bitch in question (as your boy seems to be doing well with other dogs since and before) could have smelt strange or confusing for any number of reasons. The classes should really help get ontop of it if they are good well organised classes.

Good luck!
Di

I thought I socialised my dog really well, and he was well up for it, wanting to play and romp with every dog we met, but something happened along the way to make him give black dogs a wide berth(unless he knows them)and hes not too keen on approaching strange dogs front on with eye contact. No aggression just would rather not go near them thankyou very much. I wonder if letting him  play with so many dogs as a puppy was wise in retrospect as he still wants to now!(3 years) its such a fine balancing act, I dont know what I would do next time round. Now he only gets to play with his friends or if a dog comes running over to him . So,he can be a bit nervous of other dogs on occaision but I dont know what I did wronghaving said that he loves the cat and every human on the planet so must have done something right

Let me tell you a little story.

Several weeks ago at a competitive event of very highly trained dogs a dog was somewhat less than sociable to the standard poodle lying next to it.

The dog had never shown any issues with any other breed of dogs in the past and we chalked it up to him eyeing up the poodle and perhaps thinking the canine equivalent of:

"'Ere, wot sort of 'aircut do you call that mate?  Are you some sort of girlie or wot?"

Just needed a bit more exposure to poodles and in the circles this particular dog works, this is remote..............

We humans, can often react defensively/fearfully depending on what we come across, how and when and how strange it is, dogs are no different.

Aggressive behaviour in a particular situation does NOT mean that you have an "aggressive" dog necessarily..............

i have been watching freddie very closely over the past few days and spoken with afew doggy people who have know him for a long time. they all agree that this behaviour is just not like him. i have met up with a very lovely lady and we are on a waiting list to attend her classes (she is an adpt dog trainer and also a judge) her classes sound wonderful as she only has 4 dogs at a time. i have also booked freddie into the vets on monday for her to give him the once over and check his hips etc. i also found out a little info on his breeder and it appears that things where not as they seemed when it comes to his dad, but that is not for me to go into now. i will keep you all posted and thank you all for your words of suport

well took freddie to the vets last night and explained all to her. she gave him the once over and had us out side running around in circles (oh how i hate that) and she feels that his hip is most deffinately giving him jip and that she feels that his shoulder may also be showwing signs of strain as he walks very wearily and heavy. so we are back on rimadol along with his glocosamine so hopefully in about a weeks time he will be more perky, poor soul i just wonder what is lying around the next corner for him.

Poor Freddie. I haven't tried it myself, yet, but if my dog ever starts suffering from chronic pain I am going to try accupuncture. I was pretty convinced about its effectiveness when I read several cases of animals that were helped by it, but after that BBC series showed there were real, physical responses to accupuncture I'm very convinced that it is worth trying. In fact, I'm going to get myself in sometime to see if it helps with the old knees.

thats such a shame especially when hes so young

do you ever have those days when you feel so compleately drained? well its 9.20 in the morning and already feel like this. took freddie out for his morning walk, down to the top field which is lovely when along comes the same black poodle that we encountered the other day. freddies response was totally almost totally the same, hackles up and barking (no snarling this time though). as before he came away as soon as i asked him to and wanted to play tug with his ball on a rope. then walking back down the lane pass a very large lab cross who is nine whom freddie has always had this thing for and off he gos again lunging and if it was not for the fact that his month was full with biscuits think e would have been giving it some!!. as sonn as said dog passes he is fine again. i have socalised my dog, he knows all basic comands and does them well.
so what am i doing that is so wrong?

it may be that you are tensing up when you see another dog and he is picking up on this, I used to do that and made things worse, now i laugh and talk silly and keep the lead loose and try to keep personal space sufficient for my dog and he is much improved.have a think about what you do and how you speak and behave when you see another dog I know how depressing it can be but dont give up.

thanks morgan, thibnk that is the case with the large male cross as i know that fred loves to wind him up but not sure if this is a hiaracy thing. as for the poodle i am at a loss, we have seen a small black poodle on our walks several times and he is always ok with that one. dont know if it is partly to do with the french cut the large one has, or wether he is just not keen. off for a walk with my friend and her greyhound this afternoon so see what we pass by.

Hi Gsd!

when these confrontations happen what kind of things are you saying to your dog?
       I really think (from my own experience) you must train him the "look at me" command, actaully I use "watch me!" (less of a mouthful!)
       Now here's the important thing:
"watch me"...means "watch me!" to us
But, to your dog it means "sausage!" (watch me and chips! watch me and mash!) I use tasty/smelly frankfurter pieces!

everytime he looks at you when you say "watch me!" (high pitched,sing song, isnt this great/exciting tone!) he is rewarded with a 'watch me' aka sausage treat! (small pieces..as he'll be getting lots of reward!)

I started by having a stooge dog (one thats good at giving appeasing signals,doesnt 'rise' to confrontation) and my dog and I would walk round the dog and handler in a large circle, as we go round I am rewarding him for looking at me, he is allowed to look at the other dog (you wouldnt walk down an alley and not glance back to see who was walking up behind you!) but not start eyeballing, so again I'd give "watch me!" and we keep going round.."watch me!" reward (immediately have them ready in your hand) watch me!..reward and soo on, gradually make the circles smaller, If he lunges in dont say anything,just bring him back out to the circle and carry on walking forawrd and giving the 'watch me!' commands intermittently.
    Within 2 minutes I had Storm trotting nicely beside me, he had forgotten the presence of the other dog and was totally focused on me (This is a husky who as a breed are known for stubborn selective hearing and doing only as they see fit!!) Once at this stage I was able to bring him in to 'meet' the other dog.
    allow them to meet side on (less confrontational than face to face meeting) and make sure you keep the communication going and keep talking to your dog (like I said in previous post above) Babble away, happy chatty "good boy!! Oh goooood boy!! lovely!! nicely!! oh goood boy!!!"

I really hope this helps?? because its really made a difference to my dog. previously he would lunge with the strenght of a freight train, and 'zone out' and totally ignore me.

The other thing I found was to remember to let the lead remain loose (its a common mistake to tighten the lead, esp if you have a dog that lunges as experience tells you, you cant hold on as well to him if he's on a loose lead, so you tighten it....but remember in the old style attack training the first step was to give a dog something/or someone it wanted to get to,while using a tight lead and tense body posture to excite the dog) If you teach "watch me" you can have a nice loose lead..which makes a world of difference!
(I found in the early days of his training when I was doing the watch me
it was difficult to hold him with one hand on a loose lead, the other had the 'watch me's'-sausages in so I bought a walking belt so he was clipped to me, I only had to use it for a week,in busy parks with off lead dogs etc til there was no lunging at all from him :) but it put my mind at rest, and if your happy and calm thats half the battle!)

phew!! sorry its long! But really hope this helps as its made a world of difference to us :D

Hello gsd2004

I dont think that it's a case of you doing something that "is so wrong."  No dog is perfect and if Freddie is generally obedient and sociable, then you've done a good job.

It's probably a bit much to expect him to like absolutely every dog that he meets and when you met the poodle, isn't it great that he came when you called and wanted to be with you, playing tuggy?

However, if you are seeing that Freddie has problems with a certain kind of dog (?large, ?black, ?male), in a certain context (?the lane), or when on lead, then that's where there is still work to do.

gsd2004 we can't really help you anymore via the internet than what people have already suggested here.

If you really want to get to the bottom of this, find out what is causing it, then find an implement a solution, I'd advise you to take your dog to the vet for a check up and ask the vet to refer him to an APBC qualified behaviourist.  The behaviourist will watch what is happening and advise further on a treatment plan.

Otherwise you will just have to accept this as part of freddie's behaviour and "manage" it rather than solve it.

It's up to you, but there's not really anything more people can suggest online....

the whole "watch me " thing has really worked for me,it has taken a long, long time but it does  work in the end, but it has to be done at a safe distance. When another dog invades that distance then it goes out the window to start with, and this morning that happened to me at dog training, a dog started running round the hall and most dogs started barking then mine lost it as well, i am dissappointed,it feels like a setback but i understand how it happened. just hang in there, and good luck with his health.

Hi there

I have fleetingly read through this post and just wanted to say to the OP that one incident does not a monster make!!!!  Regarding socialisation.  If the socialisation window closes at 12 weeks (as evidence would suggest!) how do people with rescue dogs manage to turn them around and make them into well mannered dogs?  With reference to Dunbar.  I too have read and heard this and emphatically disagree with that statement of seeing 100 people etc., etc.,  You can "over-socialise" a puppy by flooding.  This can make the puppy fearful and has the exact opposite effect of what is intended.  I personally think that this is a one-off situation, perhaps caused by how the poodle looked, perhaps not.  I got 2 of my dogs at 9 months and 3 years respectively and both have been turned around.  The 3 year old had had no socialisation whatsoever and was tied outside for the 3 years of his life.  A nicer dog now you could never meet.  Also, I got my Bracco puppy at 12 weeks.  She had had her first injection but not her second.  She has grown into a wonderful dog who loves everything and everybody she meets.  To say that this incident was almost certainly down to lack of socialisation when you don't even know the dog is somewhat harsh.  This person has clearly done the best for her dog and wants only the best for him.  To me, not knowing the dog but going on the info that he hasn't been like this before, it is a one-off.  Remember poodles do not look like a lot of other dogs.  Sometimes their posture can be full on!  Without seeing what happened I think it is quite wrong to criticise and be flippant about a problem that somebody is clearly upset about.

thanks dogdeli 1, needed that

I don't think I'm criticising or being flippant and I don't think you'll find that I have been....

If you had read through the post a bit more carefully you would have seen that it's not just one incident - there have now been several such incidents.

Again, you personally may disagree with Jean Donaldson, Ian Dunbar, Fuller, not to mention Fisher, Bateson, Melzack, Scott, Serpell & Jagoe, Woolpy...think I will stop there.  Hmm, now I wonder who I would go with - anonymous dog owner of 2 dogs V scientific experts who have conducted extensive research into the field of socialisation and are all in agreement on the BASIC idea that the younger a dog is socialised, the better.  Hmm....difficult one that....

Sorry but I'm not talking about flooding - flooding is when you force a fearful dog to confront the thing it is worried about and to be immersed in that experience with no escape and no way out.  That has not been mentioned anywhere on this thread & it's a method which personally I don't use because I think it's ethically questionnable.  Instead what we are talking about is exposing a puppy which is COMFORTABLE to as many different people, places, dogs etc as possible.  Of course you shouldn't force a puppy to confront something it is fearful of - you should back off, find a distance where the puppy is comfortable and then try to approach it one step at a time, feeding lots of treats - in other words - using systematic desensitisation.  Again, this is something the experts agree on unanimously....they just disagree on the details - like how many is sufficient etc.

HI 123

Yes.  I've read all the books myself that you refer to (well maybe not all of them but I am well read in dog behaviour!).  What I am saying is that to criticise somebody for not socialising their dog properly without even knowing the dog or the situation and merely answering a question on-line without asking specific questions yourself is flippant.  You have basically just dented the confidence of somebody who is obviously anxious about her dog.  A more positive response would have been more appropriate in this instance.  AND you did state that at the beginning of the thread - not at a later date when more information came out.  I rest my case.

While I do read what behaviourists have to say I tend to adapt that to my own situation.  There are lots of books on dog behaviour, child rearing etc., etc., and not all of them are relevant to me.  Socialising a puppy with 100 people in its first week in the outside world would, in fact, be flooding.  You would have to subject that puppy to meeting approximately 15 people per day.  Your day would be spent searching people out.  AND if you were socialising to that many people, how would you know that it was always going to get good experiences?  Also, what is the point in socialising a puppy to types of people it is never ever going to meet again.  When it comes across somebody like that 3 years down the line, do you think it is going to remember?  I think not.

I personally believe that it is best for a dog to be socialised and habitualised to certain situations as young as possible but in the case of rescue dogs this is not often the case.  In contrast to what Dunbar et al have to say on the subject Neville and Coppinger agree that the pup's emotional development starts at age approximately 3 weeks and ends at 7 weeks.  That means that it is in fact the breeder who should be responsible for the emotional development of the puppy before it reaches its new home.  There is great emphasis now on the role that emotion has to play on canine behaviour.  That is the new way forward.  Also, Abrantes in "The Evolution of Canine Social Behaviour" states that there is no such thing as "fear aggression".  There is fear (which is the emotion!) and there is aggression (which is the action!).  Both responses to a situation come from different parts of the brain and therefore cannot be combined.  Fear aggression is a term used by people trying to find out the causes of dog aggression.  I don't think I agree with Abrantes but it is worth discussion and debate.  Also, the theory regarding socialisation is worth debate also.  I wonder how many people would agree that the socialisation period stops at 12 weeks.  I've read in some books it can be as long as 6 months but as little as 7 weeks.  Who is right?  They all can't be!!!!!

Nobody knows exactly how long a socialisation period lasts.  Neville and Coppinger's research brings out the theory that it is different in different breeds!!!!  Therefore a sweeping statement cannot be made.

My experience is that dogs learn throughout their lives.  Like children learn as they grow, so do dogs.  You cannot possibly socialise a dog to all the situations it is going to encouter in its life;  you can merely prepare them to become more rounded, adult dogs.  If socialisation was to stop at 12 weeks that would mean we couldn't further enrich their lives throughout the whole of their lives.  I don't consider myself to be an expert but what I do think is that I look at as much evidence, theories, papers etc., that I can and then apply my experience to that information.  I always find that works best for me and the comments you make about socialisation just don't add up.  As I say, what about rescue dogs?  Should they all be pts because they are past their socialisation period.  I think not.  If that was the case there would be no need for charities such as The Dogs Trust. 

Just my opinion of course and, as you say, I am an anonymous dog owner of 2 (well, really 4!). 

Kind regards
Annie

Hi Dogdeli1

I totally agree with you, my GSD bitch who I got when she was 16 months had never been socialised, although she had lived with 2 other GSD`s, she had only exercised in the field next door to where she lived, had NEVER been out on the lead etc., a couple of weeks after getting her I took her to training classes, poor thing was absolutely terrified of all the other dogs and I had to leave as it was stressing her so much...however I perservered and within 6 months of getting her she passed her Bronze good citizen award....She is the most sociable dog you could ever wish to meet, she is ALWAYS off the lead and although never approaches other dogs if they come up to her she is always friendly, she loves everyone including children.  She is now coming up to 8.

I don't think anyone's ever suggested that dogs will never learn anything after 16 weeks or 20 weeks! :rolleyes: What happens is that, if they haven't been exposed to lots of new experiences before that cut-off time, something totally new after that time will cause them more stress and take them longer to accept than it would have done if they hadn't learned (through experience) that new things were no big deal. So yes, if you lock a puppy up in a kennel with no stimulation for 20 weeks and then put it into a family home it will adapt - but it will take much longer and cause the animal much more stress than would be the case otherwise.

Annie - I think you are twisting my words here and over-reacting, much as JG implies.

Firstly you say: "Socialising a puppy with 100 people in its first week in the outside world would, in fact, be flooding"

No one here has suggested socialising a puppy with 100 people in 1 week.  IF you read what I wrote, I said "by 12 wks".  Personally, I take my puppies out and about from 7 wks, carrying them in a shoulder bag if I am concerned about disease, and I'm sure, in 5 weeks of that, they easily meet 100 people.  Afterall, people are only too keen to say hello to such tiny puppies!  THIS is what Dunbar is suggesting, not introducing 100 people in 1 week.  Please don't twist what I say.

Secondly you say:  "to criticise somebody for not socialising their dog properly without even knowing the dog or the situation and merely answering a question on-line".

This is an internet forum.  As such conversations must inevitably happen "online".  There is no other way.  If a poster posts a question here, yes the answering format will be "online".  In fact this entire forum is comprised of people "merely" answering a question online. 

If you read my last post on this thread to gsd2004, you will see that I myself advised her to see a behaviourist because the advice has gone as far as it can possibly go online.  We have all offered suggestions about what could have caused this behaviour, because that's what we were asked for, but we have exhausted them now so if she really does want an answer, then she should see a behaviourist.  Sorry but UNTIL another reason is found for the behaviour described, I would CONTINUE to believe it is caused by poor or under socialisation.  And you can all go and throw you hands up and react as though I have said the most offensive thing in the world here, if you like. 

And lastly - I have not "criticised" anybody here.  I was asked my opinion, and I gave it.  Unfortunately YOU and gsd2004 and one or two other people have decided that I am being offensive, criticising, picking on someone and so on - sorry - but crap things happen sometimes and people make mistakes and undersocialise their dogs - LOADS of people.  That is FACT, not opinion.  Of course it's not fact that this particular dog is under socialised, but given what has been described, it would STILL be my best bet and what I'd say on the subject!  Now, of course if you'd prefer, I can withhold what I think the reason is, I can make up some lovely comforting reason instead.  But would that help?  No! 

I'm well aware that no one is sure of how long a socialisation period lasts - but the experts are UNANIMOUS that the earlier it begins, the better.  Sure, you can help a dog which is poorly socialised to improve but it will take a LONG LONG time and that dog will NEVER be as well adjusted as it would have been had you started socialisation earlier.  NEVER.  It may surprise you but there ARE dogs out there which are badly socialised enough to be put down when they get into rescue.  Not all rescue dogs are poorly socialised - dogs are rehomed for a variety of reasons.  But some of them ARE PTS for behavioural reasons. 

Dogdeli, where have you been? Lovely to have you back - or have you just been on the boards I don't bother with?

You have said everything I wanted to say but far more articulately and with more intellectual authority than I could ever muster.  God knows what my two current dogs went through in their early lives and each had their problems when they came to us at approx 12-18 months.  But they are my wonder dogs because I know how far they've both come.

To OP: I agree with Dogdeli's first point about one-off behaviours. Out of the blue Miss Thing once raced across the park to chase a young girl (14) on a bike.  She pursued her until she fell off at which point the dog stood over her barking continually until I raced over and pulled her away, apologising profusely and making sure the girl was ok - which she was.  (She even laughed and tried to stroke the dog! Miss Thing gets away with a lot because she is small and cute; if the GSD had behaved like this it would have been a different matter entirely.) 

I was plunged into gloom.  Great, here was another problem to add to the terrible recall, aggressive response to small yappers and generally headstrong behaviour - cue for much whingeing and hand-wringing to these boards. But here's the thing: she's never done it again or shown the slightest inclination to do so.  

Now it could be that I am such a superb trainer that my mere discouraging glance was enough to get the message across - but her subsequent behaviour in other areas makes me doubt this (that and knowing that I am definitely not a superb trainer).

Perhaps we just have to accept that sometimes dogs just 'do stuff' or that they pick up signals on frequencies (scent, sight, hearing, whatever) that we just can't appreciate.

Either way don't immediately see a couple of behaviours as a career decision on your dog's part. Good on you for coming for advice and remember - dogs don't read books and people can only do their best.

Regards

Linda

No Linda, it's more likely that you haven't correctly identified the triggers which caused this behaviour.  It could be that the girl on the bike had to be a girl, had to be on a bike, had to be within a certain distance, had to be cycling at a certain speed, there had to be the smell of a bitch in season in the air, there had to be trees in the background and so on and so forth.  Basically - everything which surrounds the event could contribute towards the trigger.  The trigger could be any one of these things (likely) or all these things in combination only.  The reason your dog has never done it again is because that particular collection of triggers hasn't been present again.  But the behaviour is still latent and should those triggers, whatever they are, happen again, the dog will behave the same way.

I take your point 123, but given the nature of some of those suggested triggers how would I ever be aware of them? 

It may be that the work I have done with her has reduced her 'latent urges' but she had/has never been a chaser of anything except balls, squirrels and aggressive little yappers then or since -certainly never people over 200 yards away on bikes and in the park we visit daily.

And anyway (she says, rolling up her sleeves) didn't I mention that dogs might have information we simply aren't equipped to receive?  And never will be? So what's a girl to do?

Bottom line for me is: get a strong, trusting and mutually respectful relationship with the dog, study what's going on, take advice and don't panic.

Regards,

Linda

>You would have to subject that puppy to meeting approximately 15 people per day.  Your day would be spent searching people out.

Not really. All you'd have to do is go and sit on a bench in a shopping centre and 100 people of all shapes, sizes, colours and ages would go past in a few minutes. They don't all need to come up and be introduced to your pup - he just has to be aware of them whilst feeling secure in your arms or on your lap, and the job's pretty much done. :)

to all of you who have given good advise and been sympathetic thank you. as i have alreay stated fred is a lovely dog with a very laidback personality. this behaviour as i already posted has happend after 6 sessions at what i feel was a badly run kc resestered training classes, or is it the norm to allow dogs to clamber all over each other and nibble backs of legs? this is where the problem started not bad sosalisation. for information to some i am not a first time dog owner, just like many others concerned when a normally sweet natured lad turns slightly bad. also have posted that he has mild hd and shoulder probs. i think that this will be my last posting on this forum for a while, i came on here for advise as to how to gain his confidence and mine back. not to be accused of not sosalizing (sp) . once again to all you nice ones thank you, and to the doubting thomas s remember not all of us dog owners are trainers, behaviourists or got the time to read book upon book. we are as a rule i think just ordanary people with jobs, children and dogs we love.

Well I hope you're not really going to leave the forum just because I suggested that a possible reason for your dog's behaviour was a socialisation problem???

I don't really know what you want, gsd2004 - I have stated MANY MANY TIMES HERE that it may not be a socialisation problem, especially after my first post where I was very forthright with my opinion - if you read all my posts since that one, you will find that I'm not blindly insisting this is a socialisation issue.  Yes, it would be my bet, but I can't prove that and there are other possibilities, as I've stated.  So I'm not entirely sure what you want from me?! 

By the way - socialisation, as people have rightly said towards the end of this thread, doesn't ONLY occur in puppyhood - it CAN occur at any time in the dog's life.  Good AND bad socialisation.  And I'd class going to 6 sessions of a very badly run class as being a very bad SOCIALISATION experience.  If it was that bad, why did you go back for 6 classes? 

Because people believe that a KC registered class is the best.  Again, you are being harsh and intimidating.  Just leave it out!!!  Say no more.  You have said your piece and leave it at that.

Annie

>Because people believe that a KC registered class is the best.

A bit of a sweeping generalisation, perhaps? ;)

LOL.  Yeh I suppose you're right.  Point taken!  Apologies

Annie

I might go 1 one KC class, if I thought it was "best", but if I didn't like what I saw, I wouldn't go back 5 more times!

Annie, I am not being harsh and intimidating, I just feel this is ridiculous and what you hear is my frustration.  Nothing that I have said has been deliberately offensive, it has just been taken in that way because I have dared to suggest that a dog's problem MIGHT be down to something his owners have or have not done. 

I have stated many, many times that this may not even be the case and there are other possible causes, but no one seems to hear that

I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall.

Please don't tell me when to say something and when not to, I'm perfectly capable of deciding when to post by myself!

Hi GSD2004

Firstly can I apologise for not replying to this thread sooner.  I forgot to tick the email notification buttons so didn't think there were any replies.

I am sorry that you have ended up feeling the way you do GSD2004.  That really isn't what a forum is all about.  However, I must say that I do think that this forum is particularly judgemental and one of the reasons that I stopped posting on it a while back.  I do tend to look in from time to time and if I see something that catches my eye I will join in but mostly tend to visit other more supportive sites.

In regard to the replies I have received to my post.  Firstly, regarding the socialisation of puppies.  123 you did state that if the dog hadn't had its first injection and had to wait for its second then it would be almost 11 weeks before it was out and about.  That does leave 1 week for the meeting of 100 peeps!  You also omitted from the statement regarding online forums "without asking questions yourself".  The type of questions you may have asked could have covered changes in the environment, changes to diet, health problems etc., etc.,   You didn't ask any of those.  Knowing these things would have given you the information to provide a more balanced reply. 

Also, in reply to JGs comment.  Sitting in a busy shopping mall will socialise your puppy to being in a busy shopping mall.  It won't socialise it to 100 different people!!!!  Socialisation to a 100 different people means that 100 different people of different colours, sizes, heights etc., require to meet your puppy in all different situations i.e. when he is in your arms, on the ground, in the park, they are wearing different clothes.  The list is endless.

You see, there is a big problem with the term socialisation!!!!  And I don't say this to belittle anybody's understanding of that area.  Behavioural studies by their very nature are fraught with inaccuracies purely because of the number of variables involved.  You could never answer a hypothesis that socialisation before 12 weeks is best until you cover all the other angles as well.  I am saying this with my research head on.  Throughout the years psychologists have tried very hard to make their profession a science and, to a certain extent, one can make generalised comments regarding human behaviour (and canine behaviour) but in order to understand it completely a life-long research programme would have to be carried out and this would have to cover ALL the variables.  By this I mean each and every person and dog is an individual.  We all have the same brain function but we all think differently.  That's what makes a forum like this interesting, because everybody sees things differently.  By studying dogs in a lab situation you see how they behave in a lab situation.  You don't see how they behave in say, my house, because in my house I behave differently and relate differently to my dogs as, say, one of my friends relates to theirs.  In order to make sweeping statements everything would have to be the same.  There could be no variables and this is nigh on impossible. You couldn't possibly narrow your findings down to one specific thing like puppies by the age of 12 weeks should have met 100 peeps or more because every puppy sees things differently.  They have different temperaments, live in different environments.  Some live in families, some live with owners on their own etc., etc., etc.,  I hope this makes sense.  Therefore, it would be correct to suggest that, puppies with the same temperaments, same environment, same routine etc., etc., benefitted from seeing 100 people by 12 weeks, as opposed to puppies with different temperaments.  You could also narrow it down to breed diffrences but a sweeping statement of ALL puppies can never be made because, as I have said above, of the variables.  This is where behavioural studies cannot make the conclusive outcomes that say mathematics can i.e. 1 + 1 = 2. 

That said, it makes sense IMO to take your puppy to as many situations as possible to build confidence etc., but one puppy may do well with this and others may take longer because of different temperaments and environments.  Regarding rescue dogs.  You cannot possibly state with confidence that a dog that has had no socialisation will never be as trustworthy as one that has because you don't know that.  You have never carried out a study and, again, the variables would come into play.

So, I think that you have been particularly harsh on this person.  With the knowledge you have you should have been asking about the differing variables in the environment, health and diet.  You should not have just jumped to the conclusion that it was lack of socialisation.  If this helps another person then I will be happy with that.  Obviously GSD2004 has ended up being upset.  That is another member you have lost.  If this continues you will end up with no members at all or only the ones that stick together to defend one another!!!  That is such a shame.

Annie