I'm being tempted by the obedience classes at the Newmarket open show in June, but wondered how it works when you are doing conformation too. Should I tell both ring stewards, in case they start calling for the stay exercise while I'm in the conformation class? Also I couldn't see a description of the exercises on the obedience schedule, just the class names. Is there somewhere obvious that I should be looking to find out what 'pre-beginners' and 'beginners' means? We have these classes at our local club 'cup afternoon', so I assume they'd be the same exercises. It's not a KC event at the club fun afternoon, so does that mean that any placings in classes there will not count towards the 'real' obedience show classes? Like the ringcraft match night wins wouldn't take a dog out of Maiden in conformation shows? Sorry to be so longwinded but I'm a complete novice with obedience! :-)

Hi Lucy
Normally, stays are in the lunch break so that they don't coincide with breed judging, but yes, it DOES happen that things clash anyway -it's happened to me.  Usually having a word with the relevant ring stewards can sort things out.

Pre-beginners is heel on lead, heel off lead, recall, sit stay 1 minute down stay 2 minutes. Beignners much the same but with a retrieve included. I agree most of the time the exercises are not explained in the schedule, only elegibility for the class (for instance once you have won pre-beginners you can never compete in it again, even with a different dog) but if you buy a book on competitive obedience they're usually explained well in there. :) They are also explained in the KC obedience regulations booklet, and in the KC Yearbook which has ALL rules, very handy to have! And no, any NON KC event wins would not count as far as wins go.

Edited to say: and good luck!!!

your stays WILL take presidence. you cant miss stays:)

look here!!!! this will be helpfull!

http://www.obedienceuk.com/book/page0.htm

Well you CAN, if you're not bothered by the final results.:) I've seen plenty of people just work for the experience at breed shows and then don't do the stays if they clashed. But personally I'd rather miss the breed class if I had to!

lol! what i mean is IF you miss stays you cant do the later!

clearly you CAN miss stays.i have loads of times accidently!!

for the OP you need to be @yoiur stays at least 10mins before the time of them. if your stays are at 12.20pm,that means last command is at that time. before that youll need to get in the ring,get your number taken & prepare your dog, for "last command" at the time stated!

its great fun though! im not going to newmarket,but if you do it id love to hear how you do. what breed have you got?

HW in pre -bees & beg will be called by a steward & you will be expected to do left turns ,right turns & about turns,& too halt. but the hw will be quite a  easy pattern. youll be asked to do a recall,say about 10/15 paces away. again directed by a steward & in beg youll do a retrieve ,so bring your own dumbell

Great, thanks for that. Best just do pre-beginners as she doesn't retrieve. I could probably get her to run after a dumbbell, though I only have tuggies, no real dumbbells, but she wouldn't pick it up - any marks for the chase? Hmm, best start teaching that properly I guess. She's a Cavalier, and the conformation class would probably be more important to me. Think I'll leave my boy at home, rushing to and fro will be confusing enough with one dog without worrying about what Henry's up to! How far away do you go for the stays? Not sure she'll go for me being right out of the ring, she loves to follow me around! How many dogs usually are in each class? If we were drawn near the beginning we'd be done before the breed judging got as far as her class. Do they do all the pre-beginners first, or if we missed it could they do us even if they'd started the next group? Gosh, there's just as much to learn as when I started in breed!!

Just started reading that link, and it says you need to be registered on the obedience and working register - is that for all dogs, or just non-pedigree dogs. My dog is registered with the KC, but presumably on the show register if there is such a thing, as that's what I do with her. Do I need to register somewhere else too?

Dogs have to be either on the full register like yours & mine or on the Activities register if they are from unregistered parents(except the dogs like BCs that are registered with an organisation recognized by the KC like the ISDS for BCs who can go on the full register)or are rescues/mongrels/crossbreeds

You bitch is already on the full register so nothing else needed but her KC number must be on the entry form!

Oh good, I'll have to dig it out. Think I'd better go and practise those stays.....

You don't have to have a dumbbell for Beginners, anything except a ball I think it is -I've seen teddies be retrieved. :) It's 25 points for the retrieve and you lose points accordingly, so would not lose all 25 if she at least went after it. :D The stays, it's usually only a few paces, and you stand either sideways or with your back to the dog. How many -can vary a LOT! But usually you get less entries at obedience in conjunction with other shows than at pure obedience shows. With smaller shows you sign in when you arrive and put down what order you'd LIKE to work in, rather than getting drawn in advance -although at really small ones in conjunction with breed shows it's often a case of just turning up when you have the time and say you'd like to work now please. :) The order the classes are done in can depend on the judges sometimes you have one judge per class, sometimes one will do two or all classes. With low entries it's often possible to turn up any time before the stays and say you'd like to work and just state which class you're in.  Michelle will have experience of bigger shows, I myself have only ever worked at breed/group shows and similar. :)

No you don't need to be reg'd elsewhere. :)

Well, we've just done a 1 minute sit and 2 minute down without any extra commands - I usually give one or two as that's allowed in pet obedience (GC) but she was fine without - just need to keep practising. Will have to get going on those retrieves if I'm thinking of doing beginners as well as pre-b, I think you are supposed to teach hold first? Must pick brains of people at pet training tonight. Looking more closely at the schedule I guess there'll be a different ring with a different judge for each level - seems so different from breed with one judge (or two) for the whole breed! Presumably there'll be separate catalogues for breed and obedience too. Gosh, it's confusing! :-)

OK, now I'm confused about the entry forms. On the obedience form it says £4 per class, and £2 for each breed entry, which I guess means the breed classes, and says separate form required. On the breed form it says £5.50 per class, £2 for obedience dog 1st breed class, and £1 for subsequent classes and also says to use separate forms. So does this mean if I do 2 obedience classes and 2 breed, that's £8 for the obedience, and £3 for the breed? Which of the 2 secretaries should get the cheque?? I'm terrible at forms!

Well I would ring one of the secretaries & ask as the Obedience schedule clearly states non members obedience £4 a class & breed with the same dog £2.00 & it says the same on the obedience entry form !

OK, now I'm confused about the entry forms

I'm so glad it's not just me!  I couldn't understand the forms last year so only went to companion shows. I really want to enter something more structured this year...but I still can't get to grips with the forms!

We have two dogs and 4 member of the family, us parents are club memers and we were told our kids did not need membership... the kids train for some activities and us adults for others.... so we eant to enter two dogs for different competitions handled by 4 people.... but when I read the forms it is not at all clear how to put this down or if we have to pay full price for each handler or just for the dogs... or for the owners or what!  And then it is a lot tp pay and a long way to drive and then you find the activities clash and you have wated your money and one or two family members loose out by not being able to have a go at their activity.... all very confusing! 

..it's like those reasdoning rests we used to at at school... and I was good at those...but still cant get the to grips with what we pay to enter on these forms or what activities can be fitted in. I will need to ring up about it but I don't like to be a nuisance.

the dog should be entered on the form .by who is the registered owner (it dosent matter about who is handling)

you dont need to be a member to enter open shows (but you "may" for a  "limit" show)

if its very complicated its always best to ring & ask. they womnt mind,its better than having to send your entry back because youve done it wrong.:)

the dog should be entered on the form .by who is the registered owner (it dosent matter about who is handling)

Michelle, my hubby want to have a go at obedience with one of our Goldens, who is registered in my name. So don't I have to transfer him to hubby then for him to work the dog? I had assumed I would.

no you dont...but YOU must sign the entry

you can add "handled Mr goldmali" if you like ;)

Cheers! :)

hes got no excuse now!!!! :)

i love goldies in ob!!!!brill attitude usually!

yes there will be two different judges in two different rings. the first 6 or 10 (depending on class size) will be drawn & they must work in that order,after that you can just work when you want. you must tick yourself off on a sheet/catalogue on the table, & find your ring number. which will either be,on the table of your lowest class, or with the show sec. (occassionally it may be at the table of the class you are drawn in)

everyone in the same class does stays together (in the stay ring usually) @ a certain time (read my comments about stays in a prevous post)

feekl free to ask any more qusetions!!!!

After consulting with the obedience people at training, I think the breed entry form is saying the same as the obedience form, but in a somewhat confusing way. I think I'll send the whole lot off to the main show secretary and let them worry about it!!

Another question please - where can I get a couple of dumbbells - I know that you can retrieve other things, but I might as well get the real thing if I'm thinking of doing this more than once every 5 years! Do they come in different sizes, if so what size is good for a Cavalier? I tried my friend's one tonight (she has miniature poodles) and Ellie looked horrified at being expected to put that in her mouth!! Unlike my two boys though, she actually likes to please me, so I think she'll do it once she's sure what I'm asking her to do.

Thanks for all the answers, I'm sure I'll be back! :-)

They(dumbells that is)come in 101 different shapes & sizes & materials from plastic to wood to metal !

Pet Needs sell them

The square ended ones are best as they don't roll when they land

LOLOL my BC puppy has a good retrieve but I haven't started formal retrieve  yet

I teach the hold, then the pick up & present & then the run out but I never do things the easy way ;)

I would measure the width of your dogs muzzles & get one a little bit bigger stops the dumbell from slipping sideways & IMHE reduces mouthing. I usually have string round the middle bar as i have found this also helps stop mouthing as it makes the bar softer to the dog

OK, I'm back again! I know people won't know the exact ring size, but when you say 'the middle of the ring' are we talking the average open show breed ring sort of size, or BIS at Crufts type size!! :-)

Also, any ballpark ideas on how far away you have to go from the dog for the recall? And how long a gap until the command to call the dog? 2 seconds or half a minute type of ideas?

More open show than Crufts :D If i wasn't so idle I'd go and look it up!!

As for how far away usually across ring or corner to corner.

Gap before calling dog nearer 2 secs than half a minute

HTH and good luck

LOL How long is a piece of string ;) The actual test is probably different at every show & under different judges. The parts of the test are always the same ie Heel on lead & Heel Free & Recall & the Stays in Pre B's. But the actual pattern of heelwork & length of the recall is down to the judge. I'm judging a Novice class soon so will be working out my heelwork pattern to send to my ring steward so she can get her head round it

Obedience rings have to be at least 20' by 20' (At least that is what I think it is of the top of my head-Red book is in the car)& they are usually as big as possible

The C rings are usually the biggest because of the complicated heel work patterns some judges like to set

Recall is usually done across the full width of the ring or corner to corner depending on what the judge decides. The recall is usually prepare to leave your dog , leave your dog(no last command BTW Halt, turn & face your dog & then call your dog. If I am stewarding I usually count tofive or ten after the turn & face your dog, but I discuss it with judge before the class starts(LOL I'm stewarding in July too) Never as long as 30 seconds though as that is too close to the 1 minute stay

you will be told to walk forward & then about turn (rember to turn to the right)& halt,by your steward. You just turen when told! how easy is that!

Eek, better start getting more distance on the recall - and more time before I call her. She's very keen to stay close to me (typical Cavalier!) and doesn't like me going too far away. I have a feeling that Ellie's obedience debut will be highly amusing to anyone watching ringside. :-D

in your class it will prob be about 10 paces away. BUT you can speak & half turn your shoulder to look at her/keep commanding as you go.

eg
steward are you ready?
you yes ,ellie recall wait,brilliant
steward command your dog
you Wait
steward leave your dog
you stepping off wait ,wait (look over your shoulder) good wait ,wait <etc>
steward about turn & halt
you about turn & halt <as you turn to face get another wait(or two) in ,& DONT move your hands or twitch or anything.
steward call your dog
you ellie come, brilliant,good girl,come straight,sit,brilliant you watch me (shes now in a present looking at you,youve got to keep your feet still,but can move your hands/arms to guide her in,but dont touch her with your hands)

stewardfinish your dog
you ellie close,  (again use your arm,but keep your feet still) good girl,get in ,you watch me.brilliant.
steward exercise finished

then you can break off & play /praise her

So you can give verbal commands but not hand signals? I tend to keep my hand up as I walk away and as I turn, so she can see the wait command is continuing.

Another question (are you sick of me yet??) - if I was mad enough to try the beginners with the retrieve, is it the full scale 'throw the article but the dog has to wait, then send your dog' type thing?

yes you could give hand signals if you want,or both if you want.

re ret yes the dog will have to wait until youve thrown it& the stewards says "send your dog",but you could keep saying,"you wait" if you like

however IF he did anticpiapate you would only lose a couple of points.

Oh good, we'll need lots of verbal and hand commands! I suspect she'll give the classic 'this dog has never been trained in its life' performance! :-D

no see wont.youll both be great! its real fun! just enjoy!!!!! :D